Is merit abuse an issue worthy of temp banning or at least DT negative trust?

[cryptohunter]

Are there no enforceable rules regarding merit abuse?? No neg trust even in serious cases??

I would suggest powering up each others merit or even your own alts merit is quite a dangerous practice.

It is actually like cheating really because you are allowing accounts to rank up and gain trust in an unfair way.  These are obviously less deserving in trust than those that do not do this.

 Trust score you say is for trust but for me a lot of faith is put in rank too perhaps just as much. I mean would you trust a legend with 0 trust or a jnr with 20 trust.

You can see that a person doing this kind of thing should demonstrate their entire account has far less real merit than those that gain their merits in a fair way and far less merit even than person that have zero or less merit.

I think Negative DT is a minimum needed to alert person of blatant trust abuse.

I have seem some account just give 50 x merit 2x  to highly probable alts and that legend has seemingly no consequences at all? the posts were laughable and to get 50 merits for almost the same exact 2 posts??

Merit is always going to be gamed a bit but to see it go down like that and no DT is commenting then I am sure there must be a good reason that I am not seeing?

Can anyone shed some light.

This is a serious question. Since I see we are now tightening up ship here to expel scammers and scam enablers and rightly so... what am I missing with these types of cases?

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[suchmoon]

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5050263.msg47119519#msg47119519

Read the whole thread too. It will give you an idea as to where the community stands on merit abuse.

[qwk]

Are there no enforceable rules regarding merit abuse?? No neg trust even in serious cases??

No.
There are no enforceable rules regarding either the merit system or the trust system.
It seems to be common practice to give negative trust to blatant merit abusers, but I recall theymos frowning upon it.

[cryptohunter]

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5050263.msg47119519#msg47119519

Read the whole thread too. It will give you an idea as to where the community stands on merit abuse.

Thanks, yes that certainly explained why there are no DT trust of some of these obvious merit abusers. This legend gave 50 merits out twice to more or less the same post and those accounts were analysed and look highly probable to be his own.

I guess most things can be gamed.

[Ispep]

This legend gave 50 merits out twice to more or less the same post and those accounts were analysed and look highly probable to be his own
I guess most things can be gamed.

Mere speculations,the more reason why there's no enforceable rule regarding such cases...
Take a plagiarism case,we the community can simply run a quick plagiarism test on such users posts,and if he/she is found guilty,the penalty(permaban)will be handed out..

But with the merit abuse cases,its always difficult to call,and we could be making a mistake tagging a user at least 5/10 times for various reasons such as.
Every user is entitled to do whatsoever he/she wishes with his/her Smerits really(so there is no proof to show a user is meriting his/her alt)
And users on the forum merit posts they agree with,which according to theymos shouldn't be so.."merit quality/good post"
So such user probably agreed with the recipient of the merit,and decided to hand out quite a chunk of it to them..

[cryptohunter]

This legend gave 50 merits out twice to more or less the same post and those accounts were analysed and look highly probable to be his own
I guess most things can be gamed.

Mere speculations,the more reason why there's no enforceable rule regarding such cases...
Take a plagiarism case,we the community can simply run a quick plagiarism test on such users posts,and if he/she is found guilty,the penalty(permaban)will be handed out..

But with the merit abuse cases,its always difficult to call,and we could be making a mistake tagging a user at least 5/10 times for various reasons such as.
Every user is entitled to do whatsoever he/she wishes with his/her Smerits really(so there is no proof to show a user is meriting his/her alt)
And users on the forum merit posts they agree with,which according to theymos shouldn't be so.."merit quality/good post"
So such user probably agreed with the recipient of the merit,and decided to hand out quite a chunk of it to them..

Not sure what your post means. Like most noob accounts spouting nonsense in meta looking for some merit crumbs.
 

 I am talking about 50 merits for very similar post 2 x to 2 accounts linked to his same holding addresses.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5072316.0

Just this one instance makes a mockery of merit, and brings into question any use of it except as weapon to stop noobs filling the board with junk. Sadly even some slip through the net like for instance you.

I am talking blatant abuse not a difference of opinion on what makes a good post.

Plagiarism is not as simple as running some script for hits and job done. Of course it may seem like that if you are some bot deployed to KA for merit.

[Ispep]

Not sure what your post means. Like most noob accounts spouting nonsense in meta looking for some merit crumbs.
That post is so insane I wish I could demerit you.

Same way I feel reading all the "hogwash swill" you drop all day on the meta board...
Talking about being a noob,you basically haven't earned much,you are simply legendary based on your longevity on the forum...

You're a "member"based on earned merits
I wouldn't hurt you then,hoping to demerit you

[S_Therapist]

you basically haven't earned much, you are simply legendary based on your longevity on the forum...

Longevity, We are here just because of the longevity of some members. If they don't deserve to be Legendary, theymos definitely put some restrictions. Back in the day, the scenario was totally different. Most of the persons used to join the forum with the interest of learning about bitcoin, having some updates about bitcoins or learning about cryptocurrency. Their posts were objectively high quality because they didn't post for fulfilling signature requirements. Why most of the boards are full of shits now? Mostly because of the signature campaign, otherwise, merit system was not implemented, IMO.

What if demerit existed and it was free to give-

Well, I want to share a story with you.
I had joined a forum named icoforums.net which was paying 1 ETH for 100 posts. It was really lucrative. Of course, I had joined with the intention to earn. But, I tried to contribute to the forum. I had posted some decent posts. Apart from that, I started to report the abusers and copy/paste so that the forum gets cleaned. I was able to remove the spams through reporting but in return what I got from users who were spamming?
There was an option called upvote/downvote. To be honest, I was one of the best users of that forum but you know what, my reputation was -17, because there were some users who had fake accounts and they were only downvoted all of my posts.
That's what will be happened here too. Trust, merits are not moderated. If there is something like -1, you can easily destroy one's reputation. And that's why there is DT member for trust feedback. Otherwise, I may create 100 of accounts and paint anyone I wish which would be visible to everyone.

[coinlocket$]

I am talking about 50 merits for very similar post 2 x to 2 accounts linked to his same holding addresses.

I posted a lot of cases here: Suspected users that are abusing merit 3.0, The fact is that nobody cares about cheaters so I stopped, I will stop also to report alts soon since in over 500 accounts reported only around 2-3% are tagged from DTs.

[cryptohunter]

Not sure what your post means. Like most noob accounts spouting nonsense in meta looking for some merit crumbs.
That post is so insane I wish I could demerit you.

Same way I feel reading all the "hogwash swill" you drop all day on the meta board...
Talking about being a noob,you basically haven't earned much,you are simply legendary based on your longevity on the forum...

You're a "member"based on earned merits
I wouldn't hurt you then,hoping to demerit you

LOL  why are you on meta all day...merit crumbs?  I never heard of just joining a board to comment on the running of it.

What projects do you support ispup?

Let's stick to your post that I have already demonstrated  was worthless. Neither points are valid here.

Stop cluttering my thread buzz off.

Actually there is need to reply the answer was clear in the thread that I was directed to.

However as I see more NOOB's hovering around merit I will wonder probably suspect they are hovering for merit crumbs.

Point me to hogwash swill that you are going to demonstrate is incorrect.

Bring a full case I am not interested in wasting time on you if you want to throw nonsense around without substantiating it.



@coinlocket$

I am sorry your efforts are not rewarded. You look like you are doing very good work

[Quickseller]

re topic: No

[Steamtyme]

Here is a quote from theymos in regards to Merit abuses and punishments - I believe this is what qwk was referring to.

If they complain about amounts, tell them to complain to me. It's best if sources try to exhaust their source allocations, even if it means giving posts higher amounts than is typical. If you have 150 source merit and you only see 3 merit-worthy posts in a month, then I'd rather you over-give each of them 50 merit than let the merit expire. That way there are more people capable of sending merit, and the "merit economy" is less top-down.

If a DT member tags you for something stupid involving merit (ie. probably anything less than selling merit), then they're not going to be a DT member for much longer.

Aside from that, if people complain about whether things deserve merit at all, then that's something to perhaps think about, but if you conclude that they're wrong, then that's that. You don't need to stress about it or defend yourself constantly. It's conceivable that someday you and I will end up disagreeing too much about this stuff and I'll remove your source status, but it's really not a big deal.

It's understandable to want/expect action when we see things transpiring that are so foreign to our own values or the "right" way of doing things. I feel I'm beginning to get a better handle on the ideals behind this forums punitive actions, and they are not meant to be harsh or rigid. So much like other issues with the forum until it becomes more than a blackeye on the system, and actually affects the overall integrity I don't expect there to be a change in attitude.

Edit: theymos quote is pruned - Didn't realize suchmoon's link was to this thread at the time.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5050263.msg47119519#msg47119519

Read the whole thread too. It will give you an idea as to where the community stands on merit abuse.

If a DT member tags you for something stupid involving merit (ie. probably anything less than selling merit), then they're not going to be a DT member for much longer.

Guess I missed Theymos's take on this, and I'm glad you linked to this post, suchmoon.  I haven't been tagging merit abusers anyway--certainly not consistently.  There have only been a couple of cases of blatant abuse where I've given out negs.  

Anyway, that's why merit abusers haven't been suffering any consequences, cryptohunter.  I had a question about this myself a while back and started a thread wondering if DT members should be punishing merit abusers, because I could tell it was being done inconsistently and wanted to help out.  

There's too much subjectivity involved when trying to judge who's abusing the merit system and who just doesn't value something like 50 merits the same way another person does and would have no problem handing out that amount of merits for a post that most people would find mediocre.  I don't know if I agree with Theymos completely about not tagging anything short of blatant merit sales, but if he doesn't want to make a big deal out of merit abuse I'm not in a position to argue.

Edit:

I only tag those users who are blatant and obvious.

It always brings a smile to my face when you drop some red on merit abusers, and yeah I suspect you're not in danger of being booted off DT for tagging these fools.

[Vod]

Are there no enforceable rules regarding merit abuse?? No neg trust even in serious cases??

No.
There are no enforceable rules regarding either the merit system or the trust system.
It seems to be common practice to give negative trust to blatant merit abusers, but I recall theymos frowning upon it.

I have been trying to enforce the merit abuse rules.  I hope I have earned enough respect from Theymos to continue doing so.

I only tag those users who are blatant and obvious.

[bones261]

   Obviously, the best way to deal with suspected merit abuse coming from a merit source is to bring it to theymos' attention rather than add a comment to the person's trust page. The post Theymos made was in a reputation thread with someone disagreeing with the way QuestionAuthority was handing out merits. I responded with some insecure paranoia that I would start getting red trust simply because people don't agree with how I hand out merits. In the end, QuestionAuthority ended up having his merit source status stripped from him.  
  Also, theymos did make a comment somewhere that he has the power to reverse merit transactions, if need be.

[suchmoon]

I will continue to red-tag users who send merits to their own alts. Beyond that I don't consider merely sending or receiving merits (without proof that the users are connected) as evidence of wrongdoing, even if it's large amounts / shitty posts / etc.

Not sure if theymos will kick me out of DT for that but I have a feeling that his statement was more applicable to someone red-tagging a merit source rather than merit abuse in general.

[LoyceV]

  Also, theymos did make a comment somewhere that he has the power to reverse merit transactions, if need be.

Here:

Merit ain't no immutable cryptocurrency!

I've only seen theymos undo it once, when a hacked account had send out 3 times 50 merit.

[The Cryptovator]

Are there no enforceable rules regarding merit abuse??

Not really.

No neg trust even in serious cases??

Yes there is few DT tagging if really happen merit abuse or sale, but must be need strong proof before tag. My thought also same to you but admin change my mind. I have opened a thread on reputation regarding merit abuse those has mentioned by suchmoon and admin himself give clear explanation why he really not like to tag peoples for merit transfer. If there is obvious abuse like merit sale then its different case. Basically I don't think need to tag for 5/10 merit transfer if they are not proven alt each other.  

I posted a lot of cases here: Suspected users that are abusing merit 3.0, The fact is that nobody cares about cheaters so I stopped, I will stop also to report alts soon since in over 500 accounts reported only around 2-3% are tagged from DTs.

Absolutely for same reason I left reporting Alts and merit abuser a while ago. Need lots of effort to find evidence but action is very rare.

Not sure if theymos will kick me out of DT for that but I have a feeling that his statement was more applicable to someone red-tagging a merit source rather than merit abuse in general.

No worries, I don't think he will kick you for tag real merit abuser/trader or seller. But he removed merit source after his statement due to unexpected uses.  

[coinlocket$]

@coinlocket$
I am sorry your efforts are not rewarded. You look like you are doing very good work

The point is not rewarding me if I find them (even if, you know, is appreciated since it takes a LOT of time ) is to punish them.

Absolutely for same reason I left reporting Alts and merit abuser a while ago. Need lots of effort to find evidence but  action is very rare.

I know the feeling also @veleor and @cheaterdetector are posting no more there, Nobody is doing something, nobody cares about the situation.
I have, I think 500 of them on my red trust list but it means nothing.

It will be fun if one day those accounts will be tagged and also it will be fun if one day we will tag bad managers who takes cheaters on their campaigns.

[Quickseller]

I have been trying to enforce the merit abuse rules. 

Where can one find these rules? How were these rules enacted?