Massive abuse in the Russian section.

[humantraffic]

Watching from the outside, it seems to me that you have become slaves of this system. And it seems that the only thing you have achieved in life, so it got to DT. And you try to stay there as if it replaces your house or apartment. Be kind to each other.

[Veleor]

In my opinion experienced users should lead by example and to show a willingness to compromise.

Who exactly are the experienced users that should lead by example in the Russian section? [...]

Reputable forum members were meant, which have years of experience on the forum, not only in Russian locale.
They could remind other users that is need to make trust lists with responsibility.

Being useful is not the same as being trustworthy.

I think this warning might be added on the Trust settings page.

[TMAN]

My advice to u, better go and learn graph theory and  how graph optimization works than rambling here.  

why oh why do you want to be on DT? will you run about the forum adding tags to scams? will you engage and try to find the truth when there isnt a clear answer? will you ask people in lending questions to avoid newbies getting skamed?

if not - then why oh why do you want to break a system? you are spouting about graph theory yet don't have enough merit in there to push 100 users forward, please dont spout nonsense, this is making me want to just tag more members there to save the forum as a whole from your shenanigans

[Lauda]

In my opinion experienced users should lead by example and to show a willingness to compromise.

Who exactly are the experienced users that should lead by example in the Russian section? The two moderators that can't even speak up but would rather side up with their own "people" even when they are in the wrong? TheFuzzStone who is preaching anti-DT propaganda (as a former DT1 member) and is playing games with his own list out of spite?

Reputable forum members were meant, which have years of experience on the forum, not only in Russian locale.
They could remind other users that is need to make trust lists with responsibility.

I'm pretty sure that this has been stated several times in different forms in this thread alone. The people that were accused of colluding apparently don't understand it or do not want to understand it. The longer this goes on, the more it seems like a lost cause.
Don't snip out my description of the users that we are dealing with.

[fxpc]

While he didn't kick you off DT1. "Time will tell how the playing cards fall..."

What is it with these thinly veiled threats, you still don't see what the fricking issue is if its not me kicking off it will be others on DT - Blatant manipulation and attempts to fork the trust system will end badly for users - not you, but the newbies - would you prefer for scams to be more prevalent just to get someone onto DT? you barely know how the system works for gods sake - its like a 3 year old walking into a shop and saying "I want that one"

Please for the sake of the people that you will cause to get scammed stop being a dick and listen

Don't you guess whose unfair decisions caused the birth of this Russian revolution? Some DT members have abused their power and compromised the trust system. For example, one year ago after the appearance of the merit system Peloso and I tested it. It was an economically useless and not prohibited operation which doesn't harm the forum. We didn't get any benefits only burned some sMerits. I remained Sr. Member, he remained Legendary. Then Actmyname set us a negative trust and without undeniable evidence accused that we are alts. I always helped the staff, found hundreds of bots and sent 4000+ reports. Am I alt and violator? Seriously? Ok, I don't mind, if it helps Actmyname to demonstrate his importance. But let's call a spade a spade. If this is a fight against scammers, then I'm Satoshi Nakamoto

[peloso]

Actmyname to demonstrate his importance.

actmyname is stupid slave so all slaves trying to demonstrate his importance and he seems so funny
when d1 controlling such stupid slaves and scammers as Lauda thid must be destroy (IMHO)

[mikeywith]

this feels like soviet union vs allies all over again, i wonder , would there be the same drama if a Russian member started this topic ? almost every Russian member is taking the Russian side blindly, while i do not agree with how TMAN described the situation here, i totally find funny that some people would include known scammers and people who are far from trusted just to appose current DT members trust lists. the current and the previous DT members are far from perfect, in fact i would rate them at 5 over 10 but i am pretty certain that with all the flaws ,the forum is much safer with them than without them.

having said that, i still stand by my opinion that at least every local board needs a local DT member/s to help protect that board, but those people have to get to DT in proper and fair manners.

[actmyname]

There should be the opportunity for some civil dialogue in order to repair the already-strained relations.

I see no reason why the Russian forum must create their own DefaultTrust list to follow without having the security of the (literally thousands of) negative feedback targeting scammers.^*

_{*provided that we reach a resolution}

Is there any chance that we can resolve this?
There is a language barrier, so if there are sensible members that are bilingual or understand a reasonable amount of English then we can tackle the differences in our thinking.
TheFuzzStone maybe? You're already a soft-DT1. If we can highlight the differences in our logic and come to a compromise, the exclusions should be lifted.

(still not sure why I was given an exclusion)

The ironic part, though, is that this kind of "self-created" list is in the uncanny valley of what we want. The point of the new system is to encourage making your own lists.
Unfortunately, the Russian community has missed the mark slightly if they decide to create another centralized list.

[Lauda]

(still not sure why I was given an exclusion)
-snip-

I have already answered this. Me and a lot of people around me got excluded solely out of spite whilst the user claims not wanting to involve emotions into this.

The ironic part, though, is that this kind of "self-created" list is in the uncanny valley of what we want. The point of the new system is to encourage making your own lists.
Unfortunately, the Russian community has missed the mark slightly if they decide to create another centralized list.

It's not really, no. You're encouraged to create your own list whilst not excluding everything that took many years to establish. If you do that, then you're essentially nullifying the security provided by all those ratings.

[actmyname]

It's not really, no. You're encouraged to create your own list whilst not excluding everything that took many years to establish. If you do that, then you're essentially nullifying the security provided by all those ratings.

Bad wording on my end. Like I said though, uncanny valley of what it's meant to be.

I have already answered this. Me and a lot of people around me got excluded solely out of spite whilst the user claims not wanting to involve emotions into this.

It was just a little strange because I had no interaction with the user at all. No exclusions, no posts about them. Must have been either roped in to a collective, or perhaps tagged members alluded to my exclusion.

[fxpc]

There should be the opportunity for some civil dialogue in order to repair the already-strained relations.

I see no reason why the Russian forum must create their own DefaultTrust list to follow without having the security of the (literally thousands of) negative feedback targeting scammers.^*

_{*provided that we reach a resolution}

Is there any chance that we can resolve this?
There is a language barrier, so if there are sensible members that are bilingual or understand a reasonable amount of English then we can tackle the differences in our thinking.
TheFuzzStone maybe? You're already a soft-DT1. If we can highlight the differences in our logic and come to a compromise, the exclusions should be lifted.

(still not sure why I was given an exclusion)

The ironic part, though, is that this kind of "self-created" list is in the uncanny valley of what we want. The point of the new system is to encourage making your own lists.
Unfortunately, the Russian community has missed the mark slightly if they decide to create another centralized list.

So what's stopping you from starting this dialogue? I have repeatedly offered you this dialogue in English. You kept silent in response. What language barrier? Are you kidding?

[actmyname]

So what's stopping you from starting this dialogue? I have repeatedly offered you this dialogue in English. You kept silent in response.

Let's begin, then. List your issues with the DefaultTrust system and we will create a correspondence.

What language barrier? Are you kidding?

I see them majority of people in [ Чeллeндж ] Hacтpoй и пoкaжи cвoй Trust-лиcт (and the Russian forum as a whole) don't speak English fluently. Plus, take a look at peloso's English posts.

actmyname is stupid slave so all slaves trying to demonstrate his importance and he seems so funny
when d1 controlling such stupid slaves and scammers as Lauda thid must be destroy (IMHO)

[fxpc]

So what's stopping you from starting this dialogue? I have repeatedly offered you this dialogue in English. You kept silent in response.

Let's begin, then. List your issues with the DefaultTrust system and we will create a correspondence.

What language barrier? Are you kidding?

I see them majority of people in [ Чeллeндж ] Hacтpoй и пoкaжи cвoй Trust-лиcт (and the Russian forum as a whole) don't speak English fluently. Plus, take a look at peloso's English posts.

actmyname is stupid slave so all slaves trying to demonstrate his importance and he seems so funny
when d1 controlling such stupid slaves and scammers as Lauda thid must be destroy (IMHO)

You set a negative trust without undeniable evidence and cannot explain your position. For a year there has been no dialogue. DT is needed to protect forum against scammers, alts and bots, not for express your personal opinion about someone. You have abused your power and compromised DT. As a result, the Russian revolution began. It makes me laugh.

Yep, they speak English very badly but you don't respond to those who speak better.

[Lauda]

You set a negative trust without undeniable evidence and cannot explain your position. For a year there has been no dialogue. DT is needed to protect forum against scammers, alts and bots, not for express your personal opinion about someone. You have abused your power and compromised DT.
-snip-

-snip-

Good luck with this, you will need it. He's talking about peloso I believe.

[tmfp]

Good luck indeed.
Difficult to talk constructively in a paranoid environment, and there seems to be plenty of that about.

[actmyname]

There should be the opportunity for some civil dialogue in order to repair the already-strained relations.

I see no reason why the Russian forum must create their own DefaultTrust list to follow without having the security of the (literally thousands of) negative feedback targeting scammers.^*

U got it in a wrong way. Look at the Personal Text I wear. It  reads - sets up your own DT0. That's it. And in our local board we encourage ppl to do so. Nevertheless, the fact that our DT1 representative was ripped  off for the simple reason that he is "random' is forcing us to rethink this approach and build the centralized Russian oriented DT0 that excludes DefaultTrust entry.

First of all, thank you for the insightful response. It's important to create discussion as some users may know things that others do not.

My main point is that DT in its current state tags a huge number of scammers that manifest in the English boards (some in the Local boards as well). The issue with excluding DT1 members is that not only do their feedback stop propagating but also the DT2 members under them.

You may say that this is not an issue because they have some ratings you disagree with but there is a better solution: one that can solve your problem without enabling scammers.

If there is feedback you disagree with, you can counter it with your own positive trust (for those that are in your local DefaultTrust system) and potentially undo the negative by vocalizing it in Reputation or elsewhere. There will be times that the DefaultTrust members are unwilling to negotiate but since you've countered the trust, to all people who align with your DT0, they will see a positive rating.Think of it this way: (arbitrary numbers)

Suppose Lauda has 1000 good ratings and 10 bad ratings.
If you exclude Lauda, you lose all of those 1000 good ratings.
If you counter the 10 bad ratings, you keep the good ratings and nullify the bad ratings.

[peloso]

Suppose Lauda has 1000 good ratings and 10 bad ratings.
If you exclude Lauda, you lose all of those 1000 good ratings.
If you counter the 10 bad ratings, you keep the good ratings and nullify the bad ratings.

yes and it fair

cos all Lauda's and she's pets tagged "scammers" is not scammers at all

[actmyname]

Well, but my point is everyone is free to include best representatives from current DT. For example  I trust theymos completely but lost confidence in Lauda after he/she kicked off TFS and made me red for nothing. So I'm right to suspect that half of her 1000 "reds" is just a fake. That is why DefaultTrust entry is unacceptable for me. But as I said each  person must be free to decide if she or he wants to proceed with DefaultTrust.

Okay, I see. Now, the issue with excluding DefaultTrust entirely is totally up to you. However, you run the risk of seeing scammers with neutral trust. If you have no problem with that and are genuinely careful with your trading, then go for it.

However, I would seriously advise against promoting the exclusion of DefaultTrust to people who aren't careful with their trades.
Users that don't look at the trust page of those that they're trading with are susceptible to scams.

There have to be some users on DefaultTrust that you think leave well-intentioned ratings, right?

[peloso]

Okay, I see. Now, the issue with excluding DefaultTrust entirely is totally up to you. However, you run the risk of seeing scammers with neutral trust. If you have no problem with that and are genuinely careful with your trading, then go for it.

However, I would seriously advise against promoting the exclusion of DefaultTrust to people who aren't careful with their trades.
Users that don't look at the trust page of those that they're trading with are susceptible to scams.

There have to be some users on DefaultTrust that you think leave well-intentioned ratings, right?

DT1 lost vlue since  you uebok tagged me year ago  and blamed the farm without any evidence and proofs your reference even wrong so if DT1 not work it must be remove

[suchmoon]

I'm not gonna waste my time reading the last 4 pages of this thread so forgive me if this has already been brought up.

I think a lot of otherwise respectable members here are making a mistake listening to loud assholes like DabLjat and peloso. They're the cryptohunters of the Russian board with no interest in anything other than escalation.

A simple way forward is to support the "good guys" and there are plenty of those in the Russian community. Support may be as simple as not excluding/red-trusting the good guys or countering existing exclusions/red trust. If you're not sure - and unless you speak passable Russian or have MANY HOURS to spend with multiple translation tools and talk to English-speaking Russians then you can't be sure - please simply take yourself out of the debate and don't act with exclusions or red trust. I have contacted numerous users over the last couple of days trying to explain this simple concept but it is unsurprisingly very difficult to do so when the debate is being fueled by emotions or perhaps even malice.

I stand by my opinion that an unqualified DT1 member should be excluded and I don't see a viable DT1 candidate on the Russian board yet, but there are some good DT2 candidates if you cut trough the noise. Unfortunately some of them got caught up in this debacle simply by posting in the Russian DT discussion thread and/or appearing in a trust list of a shady person. I consider that unacceptable and I have started reincluding some of them at my own risk. Unfortunately my sole action means jack shit. Any DT1 members willing to contribute to the solution and not to the problem feel free to PM me or post here at any time and I'll try to answer any questions you may have on this subject.