ODI cricket and general cricketing discussion [self - mod]

[Vishnu.Reang]

We no longer have bowlers of the caliber of Dale Steyn, Glenn McGrath and Shoaib Akhtar. The role of the fast bowlers in cricket have been replaced by medium pacers such as Bumrah.

If you want to criticize current system then please use good example. stop living in the past, we have good seam bowlers in the world cricket right now such as Starc, Cummins, Bumrah, Archer, Shami, Rabada etc.  

If you consider speed major factor then so called medium pacer Bumrah highest speed is 153 km/h and average is 142 km/h. on the another hand Macgrath highest bowling speed was 145km and average 131km/h.

This was the statement which triggered this debate. As per Sithara007, we no longer have genuine fast bowlers such as Brett Lee and Shoaib Akhtar. As per JSRAW, this statement is wrong and we have bowlers who can deliver at the same speed.

I tend to agree with JSRAW. Even at their peak form, both Lee and Akhtar averaged around 145-150 kmph (90-93 mph), which is around the same speed at which Starc and Umesh Yadav bowls. But none of the current bowlers have managed to touch the 100 mph mark (161 kmph), which was achieved by three bowlers from the earlier generation (Shoaib Akhtar, Shaun Tait and Brett Lee).

Mitchell Starc came really close in 2015, when he was clocked at 160.4 kmph (99.7 mph).

[ene1980]

~snip
Mitchell Starc came really close in 2015, when he was clocked at 160.4 kmph (99.7 mph).

I tend to agree with one point, there is a lack of quality fast bowlers around the world if you compare the older generation England Australia New Zealand ( Not much but still) South Africa Pakistan West Indies had great fast bowlers than the current generation and the only difference i see is that India never had a great bowling unit of fast bowlers and they rely on spin but now they have some real talents.

PS: i do not consider bowling fast as great fast bowling but quality attack.

[SaShiRaJaVu]

~snip
Fastest delivery yeah, but overall as unit i would say they were behind.

When it came to picking wickets India was leading, not sure whether you are talking about pace.

In Test matches the number of wickets taken by fast bowlers.
Australia:
Starc : 13 Wickets 
Hazlewood: 13 wickets
Cummins : 16 wickets

India:
I Sharma: 12  wickets 
Bumrah: 21 wickets 
Mohammed Shami: 16 wickets 
Yadav: 2 Wickets as he played only one match.

[onrise]

~snip
Fastest delivery yeah, but overall as unit i would say they were behind.

When it came to picking wickets India was leading, not sure whether you are talking about pace.

In Test matches the number of wickets taken by fast bowlers.
Australia:
Starc : 13 Wickets 
Hazlewood: 13 wickets
Cummins : 16 wickets

India:
I Sharma: 12  wickets 
Bumrah: 21 wickets 
Mohammed Shami: 16 wickets 
Yadav: 2 Wickets as he played only one match.

Did not know this fact thanks for sharing and yes in recent times Indian pacers have delivered a good spell and thus also have helped the team to win the matches and the above stats confirm the same how fast bowlers are playing crucial roles.

[ene1980]

When it came to picking wickets India was leading

The Indian bowlers dominated the series and so is the reason they won the ODI and Test series in Australia and drew the T20 because of match was washed out and as JSRAW pointed out the Indian bowlers are performing well in history of cricket as a team as the entire bowlers they have are able to pick wickets in any situation and hence they are the number one Test team as you need to have the ability to pick 20 wickets in a match and they are capable of doing that.

[JSRAW]

Fastest delivery yeah, but overall as unit i would say they were behind.

When it came to picking wickets India was leading, not sure whether you are talking about pace.

Sorry for the confusion, yeah i was referring to pace because we were discussing speed.

When talking about taking wickets. Indian bowlers not only outperform OZ bowlers but everyone in the world in one calender year. i wrote about this in details couple of times here, can't find old posts so quoting latest post where i was replying to @sithara in our Test thread.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5168384.msg52840499#msg52840499

but they become paper tigers abroad. The same can be said about the bowler as well. Apart from Jasprit Bumrah, none of the Indian bowlers have the ability to perform abroad in a consistent manner.

Guess you missed the Seamers performance in 2018.  Batsmen and captaincy (Selection) let down Indian team otherwise Indian team was supposed to Win in SouthAfrica 2-1 and In England all batsmen performed badly be it English or Indians, Except Kohli and English Tailenders.

~snip
Mitchell Starc came really close in 2015, when he was clocked at 160.4 kmph (99.7 mph).

I tend to agree with one point, there is a lack of quality fast bowlers around the world if you compare the older generation England Australia New Zealand ( Not much but still) South Africa Pakistan West Indies had great fast bowlers than the current generation and the only difference i see is that India never had a great bowling unit of fast bowlers and they rely on spin but now they have some real talents.

PS: i do not consider bowling fast as great fast bowling but quality attack.

IMHO Quality of fast bowling is not a problem here. problem lies in the ICC rule books, they keep making rules which favors the batsmen.

1. In 70s there was no rule of no ball - stepping the line-
2. These days one bouncer allowed per over, In 90s it used to be 2 and before that bowler used to bowl 6 bouncers in a single over.
3. Boundaries shrinking day by day in the Shorter Format, nowadays even 350 runs target is reachable, but in old times 220 was winning score.
4. Quality bats, Field restrictions, Power play, Free hit, etc

Edit : Messed up with the quotes so had to repost again...

[Indymoney]

Fastest delivery yeah, but overall as unit i would say they were behind.

When it came to picking wickets India was leading, not sure whether you are talking about pace.

Sorry for the confusion, yeah i was referring to pace because we were discussing speed.

When talking about taking wickets. Indian bowlers not only outperform OZ bowlers but everyone in the world in one calender year. i wrote about this in details couple of times here, can't find old posts so quoting latest post where i was replying to @sithara in our Test thread.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5168384.msg52840499#msg52840499

but they become paper tigers abroad. The same can be said about the bowler as well. Apart from Jasprit Bumrah, none of the Indian bowlers have the ability to perform abroad in a consistent manner.

Guess you missed the Seamers performance in 2018.  Batsmen and captaincy (Selection) let down Indian team otherwise Indian team was supposed to Win in SouthAfrica 2-1 and In England all batsmen performed badly be it English or Indians, Except Kohli and English Tailenders.

~snip
Mitchell Starc came really close in 2015, when he was clocked at 160.4 kmph (99.7 mph).

I tend to agree with one point, there is a lack of quality fast bowlers around the world if you compare the older generation England Australia New Zealand ( Not much but still) South Africa Pakistan West Indies had great fast bowlers than the current generation and the only difference i see is that India never had a great bowling unit of fast bowlers and they rely on spin but now they have some real talents.

PS: i do not consider bowling fast as great fast bowling but quality attack.

IMHO Quality of fast bowling is not a problem here. problem lies in the ICC rule books, they keep making rules which favors the batsmen.

1. In 70s there was no rule of no ball - stepping the line-
2. These days one bouncer allowed per over, In 90s it used to be 2 and before that bowler used to bowl 6 bouncers in a single over.
3. Boundaries shrinking day by day in the Shorter Format, nowadays even 350 runs target is reachable, but in old times 220 was winning score.
4. Quality bats, Field restrictions, Power play, Free hit, etc

Edit : Messed up with the quotes so had to repost again...

@JSRAW love your all analysis and work look like you are also real cricket lover like me as few years back I was also too much in love with this game but now have some personal issues and many things around just because of this cannot take too much time ICC kills real beauty of cricket as they bring too much in favor of batsmen and not favoing fast bowlers for some long time its real hurt but now after some long time we have good pairs of these Lethal weapns as your table showing specially from India hopefully they will bring some good interest in future.

[Sithara007]

1. In 70s there was no rule of no ball - stepping the line-
2. These days one bouncer allowed per over, In 90s it used to be 2 and before that bowler used to bowl 6 bouncers in a single over.
3. Boundaries shrinking day by day in the Shorter Format, nowadays even 350 runs target is reachable, but in old times 220 was winning score.
4. Quality bats, Field restrictions, Power play, Free hit, etc

The ICC changed the rules, because according to them the audience cares more about the batsmen. The star batsmen (Virat Kohli, Steve Smith, Babar Azam.etc) have more fan following when compared to the star bowlers (Jasprit Bumrah, Mitchell Starc, Jofra Archer.etc). And in part they are right. It is the batsmen who attract the crowds, and not the bowlers. Even bowlers such as Brett Lee and Shoaib Akhtar couldn't change this. An ODI match, in which both teams score in excess of 350 will be much more well received by the crowd when compared to a match in which the average team score is 200-220.

[Haunebu]

IMHO Quality of fast bowling is not a problem here. problem lies in the ICC rule books, they keep making rules which favors the batsmen.

1. In 70s there was no rule of no ball - stepping the line-
2. These days one bouncer allowed per over, In 90s it used to be 2 and before that bowler used to bowl 6 bouncers in a single over.
3. Boundaries shrinking day by day in the Shorter Format, nowadays even 350 runs target is reachable, but in old times 220 was winning score.
4. Quality bats, Field restrictions, Power play, Free hit, etc

True, but I don't see any problem in that. However, the DRS system has helped bowlers a lot these days due to the multitude of wrong decisions being given out by umpires at present which just shows that bowlers are not being neglected completely.

The star batsmen (Virat Kohli, Steve Smith, Babar Azam.etc) have more fan following when compared to the star bowlers (Jasprit Bumrah, Mitchell Starc, Jofra Archer.etc). And in part they are right. It is the batsmen who attract the crowds, and not the bowlers. Even bowlers such as Brett Lee and Shoaib Akhtar couldn't change this. An ODI match, in which both teams score in excess of 350 will be much more well received by the crowd when compared to a match in which the average team score is 200-220.

Agreed. I enjoy watching an IPL match where both teams manage to score something above 180 when compared to a dull one with scores below 100. The batsmen are basically the forwards and quarterbacks of Cricket which is why I have no issues with them being favored more overall.

[JSRAW]

IMHO Quality of fast bowling is not a problem here. problem lies in the ICC rule books, they keep making rules which favors the batsmen.

1. In 70s there was no rule of no ball - stepping the line-
2. These days one bouncer allowed per over, In 90s it used to be 2 and before that bowler used to bowl 6 bouncers in a single over.
3. Boundaries shrinking day by day in the Shorter Format, nowadays even 350 runs target is reachable, but in old times 220 was winning score.
4. Quality bats, Field restrictions, Power play, Free hit, etc

True, but I don't see any problem in that. However, the DRS system has helped bowlers a lot these days due to the multitude of wrong decisions being given out by umpires at present which just shows that bowlers are not being neglected completely.

DRS is for Players which includes (Batsmen/Bowlers) both team vs Bad Umpiring, but agree overall all.

Game is evolving and its necessary for cricket to survive, i am perfectly fine with that. infact i support it but we can't deny the fact that as game moving forward its becoming more batsmen friendly in the shorter format. we shouldn't look at past and whine but when we are looking at overall game history then least we can do is be honest about it.

Look what happened in the Test Cricket in recent times when pitches were green and bouncy (WI vs Eng,-- Eng vs Ind,-- SA vs Ind or Ind vs Aus) or even on flat pitches (Aus vs Pak and Ind vs SA ). teams gets decimated by bowlers only handful of batsmen stands tall in current generations.

~snip~
The ICC changed the rules, because according to them the audience cares more about the batsmen.

They are not wrong though. Fast Bowlers are considered second class citizens who do all hard work and Spinners are third class citizen in the cricket.

~snip~

Thanks Bro, can understand.

[Vishnu.Reang]

Agreed. I enjoy watching an IPL match where both teams manage to score something above 180 when compared to a dull one with scores below 100. The batsmen are basically the forwards and quarterbacks of Cricket which is why I have no issues with them being favored more overall.

Well.. I enjoy watching pacers such as Mitchell Starc and Pat Cummins destroy the opposition with their raw pace. It is no less entertaining than watching an innings from Virat Kohli or Rohit Sharma, where these same bowlers are thrashed all over the park. During the old days, watching Shoaib Akhtar running up to bowl was more stimulating than the morning cup of coffee.

[Clement Kaliyar]

Well.. I enjoy watching pacers such as Mitchell Starc and Pat Cummins destroy the opposition with their raw pace. It is no less entertaining than watching an innings from Virat Kohli or Rohit Sharma, where these same bowlers are thrashed all over the park. During the old days, watching Shoaib Akhtar running up to bowl was more stimulating than the morning cup of coffee.

I really enjoyed good contest between batsman and bowlers rather than having a one sided affair, if a batsman scores a century when the opponent is bowling really well then it would be a joy to see a battle like that and in the past we used to see battles like these but now a days the format and the rules are batsman friendly even fielding and bowling restrictions and the size of the ground as we all mentioned are getting smaller.

[Vishnu.Reang]

Well.. I enjoy watching pacers such as Mitchell Starc and Pat Cummins destroy the opposition with their raw pace. It is no less entertaining than watching an innings from Virat Kohli or Rohit Sharma, where these same bowlers are thrashed all over the park. During the old days, watching Shoaib Akhtar running up to bowl was more stimulating than the morning cup of coffee.

I really enjoyed good contest between batsman and bowlers rather than having a one sided affair, if a batsman scores a century when the opponent is bowling really well then it would be a joy to see a battle like that and in the past we used to see battles like these but now a days the format and the rules are batsman friendly even fielding and bowling restrictions and the size of the ground as we all mentioned are getting smaller.

A part of the blame should go to the emergence of the T20 format. In this particular format, the bowlers are at a heavy disadvantage. The batsmen can start smashing the ball from the first over onward, since they have 10 wickets to spare with 10 overs in their hand. And the bowlers need to concentrate on bowling economically, rather than taking wickets.

[JSRAW]

India announced the Squad for upcoming T-20/ ODI series against the West Indies. Kohli, Kuldeep, Bhuvneshwar, Shami, Jadeja are back and Krunal, Khaleel, Shardul Thakur, Samson out.

Samson exclusion looks odd to me, he didn't even got a chance to play a single game and considering Rishabh Pant's recent form, he surely deserved a few chances and not sure what Kedar Jadhav is doing in the ODI squad, he's 34 yo. IMO management should look out for new blood (Shubham Gill).

No mention of Dhoni, guess more speculation on his retirement.

https://www.cricbuzz.com/cricket-news/110916/kuldeep-bhuvneshwar-back-in-squad-for-west-indies-series

T20I Squad: Virat Kohli (C), Rohit Sharma (VC), Shikhar Dhawan, KL Rahul, Shreyas Iyer, Manish Pandey, Rishabh Pant (WK), Shivam Dube, Washington Sundar, Ravindra Jadeja, Yuzvendra Chahal, Kuldeep Yadav, Deepak Chahar, Mohammed Shami, Bhuvneshwar Kumar

ODI Squad: Virat Kohli (C), Rohit Sharma (VC), Shikhar Dhawan, KL Rahul, Shreyas Iyer, Manish Pandey, Rishabh Pant (WK), Shivam Dube, Kedar Jadhav, Ravindra Jadeja, Yuzvendra Chahal, Kuldeep Yadav, Deepak Chahar, Mohammed Shami, Bhuvneshwar Kumar

New updates on Squad... Injured Dhawan ruled out of West Indies T20Is; Samson named replacement

Now Sanju Samson is part of 15 member sqad for this T-20 Series. he's replacement opener for Sikhar Dhawan who got injured in Domestic tournament ( Syed Mushtaq Ali T20). hard luck for Dhawan but good opportunity for young Samson, hope this young fella grab this chance with both hands and would like to see new guy opening for Team India instead of KL Rahul.

Follow up news in India's ODI squad against the Windies, originally it was posted in T-20 thread but new update is regarding ODI so posting here.

Mayank Agarwal is replacement of Sikhar Dhawan in ODI but nothing to excited about i guess, We already know what happened to Samson who was T-20 replacement for the same player (Sikhar). he's warming up the bench.

[Vishnu.Reang]

Follow up news in India's ODI squad against the Windies, originally it was posted in T-20 thread but new update is regarding ODI so posting here.

Mayank Agarwal is replacement of Sikhar Dhawan in ODI but nothing to excited about i guess, We already know what happened to Samson who was T-20 replacement for the same player (Sikhar). he's warming up the bench.

Some of the Indian fans misbehaved with Virat Kohli during the second T20I (which was played at Trivandrum, Kerala). I agree that Sanju Samson is a good player. But you can't really misbehave with the team selectors or team captain, if your favorite player doesn't get selected. I think Virat was also quite irritated by the crowd behavior and I am sure that this incident is not going to help Samson in any way.

[eaLiTy]

Some of the Indian fans misbehaved with Virat Kohli during the second T20I (which was played at Trivandrum, Kerala). I agree that Sanju Samson is a good player. But you can't really misbehave with the team selectors or team captain, if your favorite player doesn't get selected. I think Virat was also quite irritated by the crowd behavior and I am sure that this incident is not going to help Samson in any way.

It was not a big surprise, i was vocal here on his exclusion from the playing eleven and the player replacing him was not performing for a long time and time after  time he was given the opportunity to be in the team and it was evident that if Sanju Samson was not selected in the T20 played in Kerala the crowd will express their opinion on the team selection and that is what happened. I know Sanju Samson personally and the bias situation where Pant is giving many opportunities even while he is failing terribly every time under the pressure and still not a single chance for Sanju to play a single game is unfortunate.

@Sashi said that in this forum about the situation if Sanju is not selected and that is exactly what happened.

[Sithara007]

Some of the Indian fans misbehaved with Virat Kohli during the second T20I (which was played at Trivandrum, Kerala). I agree that Sanju Samson is a good player. But you can't really misbehave with the team selectors or team captain, if your favorite player doesn't get selected. I think Virat was also quite irritated by the crowd behavior and I am sure that this incident is not going to help Samson in any way.

It was not a big surprise, i was vocal here on his exclusion from the playing eleven and the player replacing him was not performing for a long time and time after  time he was given the opportunity to be in the team and it was evident that if Sanju Samson was not selected in the T20 played in Kerala the crowd will express their opinion on the team selection and that is what happened. I know Sanju Samson personally and the bias situation where Pant is giving many opportunities even while he is failing terribly every time under the pressure and still not a single chance for Sanju to play a single game is unfortunate.

@Sashi said that in this forum about the situation if Sanju is not selected and that is exactly what happened.

I agree that Samson deserved a few games. But at the same time supporters need to understand that they should express their anguish in a civil way. Booing your own captain is not going to do any good. Even from the start, his supporters have been pulling down Samson. First it was Shashi Tharoor and Sreesanth who came out vocally in his favor. And obviously there was some backlash from the other parts of India, as the regional equations came in to play. And now I don't think that Indian cricket fans are going to take this incident at Trivandrum lightly. In the end, it is going to have a negative impact on Samson.

[JSRAW]

Follow up news in India's ODI squad against the Windies, originally it was posted in T-20 thread but new update is regarding ODI so posting here.

Mayank Agarwal is replacement of Sikhar Dhawan in ODI but nothing to excited about i guess, We already know what happened to Samson who was T-20 replacement for the same player (Sikhar). he's warming up the bench.

Some of the Indian fans misbehaved with Virat Kohli during the second T20I (which was played at Trivandrum, Kerala). I agree that Sanju Samson is a good player. But you can't really misbehave with the team selectors or team captain, if your favorite player doesn't get selected. I think Virat was also quite irritated by the crowd behavior and I am sure that this incident is not going to help Samson in any way.

Indian fans have this problem. I didn't watch game so not aware of this particular incident . As far as i noticed fans were booing Rishab Pant and Virat came in his defense followed by some statement during the press conference. this thingy happened against Bangladesh too when fans were chanting Dhoni.

[Juggy777]

Follow up news in India's ODI squad against the Windies, originally it was posted in T-20 thread but new update is regarding ODI so posting here.

Mayank Agarwal is replacement of Sikhar Dhawan in ODI but nothing to excited about i guess, We already know what happened to Samson who was T-20 replacement for the same player (Sikhar). he's warming up the bench.

Some of the Indian fans misbehaved with Virat Kohli during the second T20I (which was played at Trivandrum, Kerala). I agree that Sanju Samson is a good player. But you can't really misbehave with the team selectors or team captain, if your favorite player doesn't get selected. I think Virat was also quite irritated by the crowd behavior and I am sure that this incident is not going to help Samson in any way.

Indian fans have this problem. I didn't watch game so not aware of this particular incident . As far as i noticed fans were booing Rishab Pant and Virat came in his defense followed by some statement during the press conference. this thingy happened against Bangladesh too when fans were chanting Dhoni.

I’m not surprised by the fans behaviour because sometimes in their passion for this game they end up crossing a line, but the players should restrain from giving it back to the fans and let the authorities fine those rowdy fans.

Shikar Dhawan is not going to be dropped unless he’s injured, because he’s an experienced player and Samson will have to wait for his time.

Now coming to Pant I feel he has himself to blame for the boos, from his poor shot selection to not keeping well he’s done nothing to deserve his place in the starting line up. Also if he continues in this way then soon he’ll be dropped from the team, which in my personal opinion should be done sooner than later.

[Vishnu.Reang]

Indian fans have this problem. I didn't watch game so not aware of this particular incident . As far as i noticed fans were booing Rishab Pant and Virat came in his defense followed by some statement during the press conference. this thingy happened against Bangladesh too when fans were chanting Dhoni.

Booing the players during the game is not something I would condone. I had condemned similar behavior by the English fans when they booed both Steve Smith and David Warner during the Ashes. And more than a decade back, I was disappointed by similar behavior by the Indian fans, during a World Cup match against Sri Lanka. Let's keep the sportsman spirit by removing these hooligans from the crowd.