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Author Topic: BitDice Robbed Investors? CSNO lost 80% value  (Read 1767 times)
joksim299
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February 10, 2020, 09:57:31 PM
Last edit: February 16, 2020, 11:56:29 PM by joksim299
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 #1

Hello,

Maybe its more appropriate for scam accusation thread but since I still think they are solvent just do not want to complete promised for some reason thread is in reputation thread.

I have been posting in few occasions in BitDice's official thread but posts were buried by signature campaign members and I did not get any answer expect generic answers.

In 2017 BitDice divested its investors and organized very promising ICO where they collected over 10.000.000$ (ten million dollars) with big promises and very invasive marketing including promoted posts on Steemit, paid press releases regarding their ICO on various crypto-related news sites including Cointelegraph and CoinDesk and they also were very active on Twitter, Bitcointalk and other chat platforms including Telegram.

Shortly after ICO concluded investors received dividends and slowly traffic started decreasing and only few players continued to play and profit soon became expense where investors are paying high server rent and legal fees  over 70k$ per quarter those costs weren't never mentioned in white paper.

For three years after ICO tokens lost almost 90% in value.

Here is screenshot of their road map as advertised in ICO:


I compiled what is done in the list below:
  • No New Slot Providers
  • No Live Games
  • No Smart Contracts
  • No Roulette
  • No Baccart
  • No Bitdice Own Games
  • No Texas Holdem Poker
Now they didn't complete most of their promises and site looks and works same as it was before ICO:

Web Archive June 02-2017


https://web.archive.org/web/20190709112651/https://www.bitdice.me/] Web Archive December 19-2019



As you can see site is identical two and half years later except that they had Crypto Gambling Foundation seal of approval [https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1700658.msg53357056#msg53357056] even if they were still running games that aren't provably fair and most likely will never be.

Token performance according to CMC is not available anymore [https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitdice/] don't know real reason but may be that tokens aren't available to trade on the second market.
 I have print screen from January 2020



Whitepaper can be downloaded from TheLazyTokenInvestor [http://www.thelazycryptoinvestor.com/docs/bitdice_whitepaper.pdf]
Data I mention above is still available on TLTI on this link http://www.thelazycryptoinvestor.com/dividend-tokens/bitdice/


Financial Forecast from Whitepaper:


TLDR how it looks on the graph from TLTI


Official reports and justifications can be found at https://medium.com/@BitDice

Quotes extracted from BitDice official thread:


Any plans to add any new slots to the site? The current selection is looking super dated, and Satoshi's Secret is definitely needing a revamp.

Also, what games are you guys currently working on?

Is there some kind of community vote where we can help choose which game is added next?

Used to use Bitdice a few months ago but got bored of the selection and moved to newer platforms. Would like to give it a spin again though if there's anything new?


Where’s the quarterly report so we can read the latest lies about how our expenses have doubled and our revenues fallen to a pittance?

The token is down largely because there are no exchanges and the communication sucks.

Not to mention the misappropriation of our funds going towards things we never agreed to in the white paper like two years of operating costs with no milestones met and lawyers being paid to hide the perp’s identity behind paper offshore fortresses.

To add to the discussion:

1. The token entitles only in profit participation. The invested assets no longer belong to the token owners. (which is a stark shift compared to earlier investements where you could redeem your money).
2. In the whitepaper they state that the money invested was to be used for:
"25% of the funds will be kept in vault as reserve. At BitDice’s discretion and dependent on market conditions, some portion of reserves can be used to buy out tokens on the secondary market to reduce public float"
"10% of the funds will be used for promotion and marketing purposes."
"25% of the funds will be used by BitDice Casino to fund capital expenditures related to platform development and business expansion. It will primarily consist of:
  • Compensating the development team for enhancing BitDice functionality, applying new technology and integrating gambling providers into the platform.
  • Developing its own unique and provably fair games on top of the old ones.
  • Acquiring necessary licenses to be able to operate with fiat currencies as a traditional gambling entity across as many regions as possible.
  • Paying legal fees to bring the whole business structure into full compliance with regulatory framework.
"40% of the funds will be stored as the casino’s house bankroll to pay out winning bets and bonuses to the players on the whole array of games presented"

3. Now, if you take a look at their quarterly reports you can read things like:
"Higher expenditures have been related to business expansion activities such as finalizing integration of fiat payment systems, expanding to new markets of Southeast Asia, and strengthening presence in social media."
"The majority of the cost was attributed to team salaries and legal fees associated with ongoing process of obtaining a license:"

The result:
These expenditures reduce the distributable profit quite significantly. Which means that token holders (at least those participating in the ICO) pay twice. Once for the token itself and then via the reduced profit.
And just to reiterate: In the whitepaper/prospectus they clearly calculated the dividend with 70% of the profits. There's no mention of running costs.

I can live with the abysmal performance of bitdice, but I don't like getting ripped off.
Either they pay the above mentioned expense from the ICO proceeding and fully distribute the profits. Or they pay all expenditures from the net profits, but in turn treat the tokens like shares in the company.

The last point is vitally important in the case of closing the company. Let's assume in 2 years the team decides that the company wasn't profitable anymore and that they want to close it. The tokens would be worthless at that point, although the assets from the ICO are mainly still there, probably beeing distributed among the team.
One might even say that this creates an incentive to running the company into the ground...

Its serious they are not operating with their own money they are operating with investor money token market cap dropped from 10$ million to 2$ million and  under 5% promises from 2017 are completed.
Nobody would complain if they were investing their own money in their own business.
You think everything is fine beacuse they pay out when someone win and you get money for your signature
If you have the money and want, then you can let develop a new casino within 3 months.

The delivery of only 5% of the promised usage of the invested money after 2 years is clearly the criminal offense of investment fraud!

Curious why investors do not complain that they lost 80% of its investment?

Maybe the numbers of collected funds are faked to attrack investors?

Very bad casinos, ...

There are similar sites that do end up on the same path https://www.katiewager.com/gambling-tokens.html so this one isnt surprising.


What I can tell is that all sites will follow the same path (90%-100% lost of value) if decided to call for an ICO pledged to USD value with a token and then get it listed on some random exchanges, it is likely that the coin/token value will drop immediately, mainly because of the owner will likely dump the remaining of his unsold token to the public via these random exchanges. It only legit if any how there is an exact model of real life IPO/ Public offering to be carried over and apply to crypto and it denomination/minium price will alway be valuated against BTC, as well as there will aways be a full buy back commitment after a certain period of time (at least any investor can have his stake buy back fully at wish with original committed price).

It is interesting to see people who will still support the website after all that is done. We are talking about people who had thousands of bitcoin, millions of dollars and yet we are still talking about "can't implement new things to outdated website".

I am sorry but with that kind of money you can hire the best developers around the globe for months on out until they finish the websites new version and on top of that add insane amount of games and features, we are not talking about couple thousand dollars here, we are talking about millions of dollars here, they have more than enough money to continue to work like that.

Hopefully, either they will realize they did a mistake by not doing anything so far and quickly change some stuff, or people at least will realize that the team doesn't have best of intentions.

Why is the 365/JAZ license invalid?


They have used Cryptogambling Foundation seal for some time while some of their games weren't provably fair and they were restricted from CGF to use it  : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5224823.0

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February 10, 2020, 11:17:45 PM
 #2

Many if not all ICOs back in 2017 made such promises to investors. Anyone who was careful enough would have thought that the price of an asset is driven by demand and when demand dies out, the price will always go down.
I dunno how this is going to be handled but i feel sorry for those who put their money into the ICO

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February 14, 2020, 09:06:28 PM
 #3

The site is doing great, I never heard of a investor making any claim and I almost buy the token myself and I regret not doing so. It didn't decieve anyone it paid out investors and it made the investment thru the token as "shares" of the site, so now it pays dividends.
I spent quite a lot of time on the site in the past and I know it's legit, besides all that it has one of the best paid signature campaing out there.

All the negative things you mentioning I'm quite unaware of.

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February 14, 2020, 09:27:42 PM
 #4

There's been a bunch of speculation going on in the BitDice thread (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1700658.new;topicseen#new).

I've done my best to address the questions I have answers for. I've seen signs of progress myself of the upcoming site update and can say that progress is being made although it's obviously not visible on the website. I've been told there might be some information about the progress that has been made on the upcoming quarterly report.

Joksim has been one of the people participating in the speculation on the aforementioned thread. The people participating in the speculation seem to, for the most part, be ignoring all of my answers as well as always coming up with a new question without addressing my responses.

As I've said multiple times already, the management is not hiding the fact that things have been delayed. I think that's pretty clear. As I've said, there's work being done and results should be visible sooner or later. Nobody has abandoned the project.

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February 14, 2020, 09:32:02 PM
 #5

There's been a bunch of speculation going on in the BitDice thread (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1700658.new;topicseen#new).

I've done my best to address the questions I have answers for. I've seen signs of progress myself of the upcoming site update and can say that progress is being made although it's obviously not visible on the website. I've been told there might be some information about the progress that has been made on the upcoming quarterly report.

Joksim has been one of the people participating in the speculation on the aforementioned thread. The people participating in the speculation seem to, for the most part, be ignoring all of my answers as well as always coming up with a new question without addressing my responses.

As I've said multiple times already, the management is not hiding the fact that things have been delayed. I think that's pretty clear. As I've said, there's work being done and results should be visible sooner or later. Nobody has abandoned the project.

I'll quote some posts from thread here.
Why legal expenses are increasing month by month?
Those things mentioned in road map can't take decade to be completed. Quarterly reports are generic and made up.

The site is doing great, I never heard of a investor making any claim and I almost buy the token myself and I regret not doing so. It didn't decieve anyone it paid out investors and it made the investment thru the token as "shares" of the site, so now it pays dividends.
I spent quite a lot of time on the site in the past and I know it's legit, besides all that it has one of the best paid signature campaing out there.

All the negative things you mentioning I'm quite unaware of.

You were lucky to not buy CSNO your coins would end up in black hole.


Updated op with quotes from BitDice thread.

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February 14, 2020, 09:43:05 PM
 #6

There's been a bunch of speculation going on in the BitDice thread (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1700658.new;topicseen#new).

I've done my best to address the questions I have answers for. I've seen signs of progress myself of the upcoming site update and can say that progress is being made although it's obviously not visible on the website. I've been told there might be some information about the progress that has been made on the upcoming quarterly report.

Joksim has been one of the people participating in the speculation on the aforementioned thread. The people participating in the speculation seem to, for the most part, be ignoring all of my answers as well as always coming up with a new question without addressing my responses.

As I've said multiple times already, the management is not hiding the fact that things have been delayed. I think that's pretty clear. As I've said, there's work being done and results should be visible sooner or later. Nobody has abandoned the project.

I'll quote some posts from thread here.
Why legal expenses are increasing month by month?
Those things mentioned in road map can't take decade to be completed. Quarterly reports are generic and made up.

Legal expenses aren't something that falls within my area of expertise.

And as I've said, there has been delays but the new website is getting closer and closer. I'll leave details to the reports.

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February 14, 2020, 09:47:06 PM
 #7

There's been a bunch of speculation going on in the BitDice thread (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1700658.new;topicseen#new).

I've done my best to address the questions I have answers for. I've seen signs of progress myself of the upcoming site update and can say that progress is being made although it's obviously not visible on the website. I've been told there might be some information about the progress that has been made on the upcoming quarterly report.

Joksim has been one of the people participating in the speculation on the aforementioned thread. The people participating in the speculation seem to, for the most part, be ignoring all of my answers as well as always coming up with a new question without addressing my responses.

As I've said multiple times already, the management is not hiding the fact that things have been delayed. I think that's pretty clear. As I've said, there's work being done and results should be visible sooner or later. Nobody has abandoned the project.

I'll quote some posts from thread here.
Why legal expenses are increasing month by month?
Those things mentioned in road map can't take decade to be completed. Quarterly reports are generic and made up.

The site is doing great, I never heard of a investor making any claim and I almost buy the token myself and I regret not doing so. It didn't decieve anyone it paid out investors and it made the investment thru the token as "shares" of the site, so now it pays dividends.
I spent quite a lot of time on the site in the past and I know it's legit, besides all that it has one of the best paid signature campaing out there.

All the negative things you mentioning I'm quite unaware of.

You were lucky to not buy CSNO your coins would end up in black hole.


Updated op with quotes from BitDice thread.
That's wrong, my coins would of been way better invested in CSNO rather than in physical slott machines.

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February 14, 2020, 10:16:46 PM
 #8

There's been a bunch of speculation going on in the BitDice thread (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1700658.new;topicseen#new).

I've done my best to address the questions I have answers for. I've seen signs of progress myself of the upcoming site update and can say that progress is being made although it's obviously not visible on the website. I've been told there might be some information about the progress that has been made on the upcoming quarterly report.

Joksim has been one of the people participating in the speculation on the aforementioned thread. The people participating in the speculation seem to, for the most part, be ignoring all of my answers as well as always coming up with a new question without addressing my responses.

As I've said multiple times already, the management is not hiding the fact that things have been delayed. I think that's pretty clear. As I've said, there's work being done and results should be visible sooner or later. Nobody has abandoned the project.

I'll quote some posts from thread here.
Why legal expenses are increasing month by month?
Those things mentioned in road map can't take decade to be completed. Quarterly reports are generic and made up.

The site is doing great, I never heard of a investor making any claim and I almost buy the token myself and I regret not doing so. It didn't decieve anyone it paid out investors and it made the investment thru the token as "shares" of the site, so now it pays dividends.
I spent quite a lot of time on the site in the past and I know it's legit, besides all that it has one of the best paid signature campaing out there.

All the negative things you mentioning I'm quite unaware of.

You were lucky to not buy CSNO your coins would end up in black hole.


Updated op with quotes from BitDice thread.
That's wrong, my coins would of been way better invested in CSNO rather than in physical slott machines.

Yes, you would now have loss of 70% while on slots you probably would end up losing everything.

@Boxxob
Site running costs (which are over 400k$+ per year) should be paid by owner 30% not investors, read whitepaper link is in the first post its nowhere mentioned that owners will pay those expenses.

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February 14, 2020, 11:00:07 PM
 #9

There's been a bunch of speculation going on in the BitDice thread (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1700658.new;topicseen#new).

I've done my best to address the questions I have answers for. I've seen signs of progress myself of the upcoming site update and can say that progress is being made although it's obviously not visible on the website. I've been told there might be some information about the progress that has been made on the upcoming quarterly report.

Joksim has been one of the people participating in the speculation on the aforementioned thread. The people participating in the speculation seem to, for the most part, be ignoring all of my answers as well as always coming up with a new question without addressing my responses.

As I've said multiple times already, the management is not hiding the fact that things have been delayed. I think that's pretty clear. As I've said, there's work being done and results should be visible sooner or later. Nobody has abandoned the project.

I'll quote some posts from thread here.
Why legal expenses are increasing month by month?
Those things mentioned in road map can't take decade to be completed. Quarterly reports are generic and made up.

The site is doing great, I never heard of a investor making any claim and I almost buy the token myself and I regret not doing so. It didn't decieve anyone it paid out investors and it made the investment thru the token as "shares" of the site, so now it pays dividends.
I spent quite a lot of time on the site in the past and I know it's legit, besides all that it has one of the best paid signature campaing out there.

All the negative things you mentioning I'm quite unaware of.

You were lucky to not buy CSNO your coins would end up in black hole.


Updated op with quotes from BitDice thread.
That's wrong, my coins would of been way better invested in CSNO rather than in physical slott machines.

Yes, you would now have loss of 70% while on slots you probably would end up losing everything.

@Boxxob
Site running costs (which are over 400k$+ per year) should be paid by owner 30% not investors, read whitepaper link is in the first post its nowhere mentioned that owners will pay those expenses.

The profit sharing falls pretty far out of my area of expertise.

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February 16, 2020, 05:28:55 PM
Last edit: February 17, 2020, 02:53:09 AM by game-protect
 #10

1) Bitdice collected the investment sum of USD 10 million in exchange for CSNO tokens.

2) Meanwhile the CSNO tokens lost 80% of its value

3) That means that Bitdice lost USD 8 million of the collected USD 10 million!

Is the accounting available how Bitdice lost the invested USD 8 million?

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February 16, 2020, 05:31:54 PM
 #11

1) Bitdice collected the investment sum of USD 10 million in exchange for CSNO tokens.

2) Meanwhile the CSNO tokens lost 90% of its value

3) That means that Bitdice lost USD 9 million of the collected USD 10 million!

Is the accounting available how Bitdice lost this USD 9 million?


The value of the tokens have nothing to do with the value of the dividends.
The value of the token is bound to the value of eth/btc if we count the swing eth took in last years you got your answer.
yall fiat counters are disappointing, long live  crypto.

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February 16, 2020, 05:39:44 PM
 #12

The value of the tokens have nothing to do with the value of the dividends.
Nonsense! The higher the dividend of a company share the higher is the value of the share!


The value of the token is bound to the value of eth/btc if we count the swing eth took in last years you got your answer.
Did investors invest Fiat money or Bitcoin/Ethereum?

What was the value of Bitcoin and Ethereum when investors purchased shares in form of the CSNO tokens?
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February 16, 2020, 07:06:10 PM
 #13

The value of the tokens have nothing to do with the value of the dividends.
Nonsense! The higher the dividend of a company share the higher is the value of the share!


The value of the token is bound to the value of eth/btc if we count the swing eth took in last years you got your answer.
Did investors invest Fiat money or Bitcoin/Ethereum?

What was the value of Bitcoin and Ethereum when investors purchased shares in form of the CSNO tokens?
Investors invested BTC/ETH then why you bring up the FIAT price that swings a lot?

Price can be exactly the same csno vs eth but you making claims on the price of eth vs fiat.

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February 16, 2020, 07:42:13 PM
 #14

The value of the tokens have nothing to do with the value of the dividends.
Nonsense! The higher the dividend of a company share the higher is the value of the share!


The value of the token is bound to the value of eth/btc if we count the swing eth took in last years you got your answer.
Did investors invest Fiat money or Bitcoin/Ethereum?

What was the value of Bitcoin and Ethereum when investors purchased shares in form of the CSNO tokens?

Investors invested BTC/ETH then why you bring up the FIAT price that swings a lot?
Because the value of Bitcoin/Ethereum is the Fiat price! Roll Eyes

No, you seemingly a fiat thinker.
You think in bitcoin and ethereum not in fiat.

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February 16, 2020, 09:33:35 PM
 #15

1) Bitdice collected the investment sum of USD 10 million in exchange for CSNO tokens.

2) Meanwhile the CSNO tokens lost 90% of its value

3) That means that Bitdice lost USD 9 million of the collected USD 10 million!

Is the accounting available how Bitdice lost the invested USD 9 million?

I think your logic is quite flawed in my personal opinion. The token price is down, sure but it's a dividend token which means the investors are still entitled to part of future profits which are estimated to get better after the new website is ready and marketing kicks off. I'm not even sure it's worth arguing with you at this point considering how you seem to think the token price somehow reflects that the invested money has been lost. Spoiler alert: It has not been lost. Most of what was invested was sold for fiat to avoid potential issues if crypto plummets. What wasn't sold has been mostly put into the bankroll.

Your points would make sense if there was somehow nothing left of the invested amount but as you can see from the quarterly reports, that's not the case.

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February 16, 2020, 10:09:25 PM
 #16

As investor, you have right to know what they did with your money and every single cent of invested money. Do you have such information?

Quote
I compiled what is done in the list below:

    No New Slot Providers
    No Live Games
    No Smart Contracts
    No Roulette
    No Baccart
    No Bitdice Own Games
    No Texas Holdem Poker

Now they didn't complete most of their promises and site looks and works same as it was before ICO

Ok, looking at roadmap picture, they said they will have these games available in 2017/2018., games should have attracted new players and I suppose that is one of the main reasons to invest in gambling site, if they still didn't release them then they lied to investors, tricked them to invest and scammed them. Why is this in reputation?

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February 16, 2020, 10:27:39 PM
 #17

As investor, you have right to know what they did with your money and every single cent of invested money. Do you have such information?

Quote
I compiled what is done in the list below:

    No New Slot Providers
    No Live Games
    No Smart Contracts
    No Roulette
    No Baccart
    No Bitdice Own Games
    No Texas Holdem Poker

Now they didn't complete most of their promises and site looks and works same as it was before ICO

Ok, looking at roadmap picture, they said they will have these games available in 2017/2018., games should have attracted new players and I suppose that is one of the main reasons to invest in gambling site, if they still didn't release them then they lied to investors, tricked them to invest and scammed them. Why is this in reputation?

I should move it to Scam Acc. thread
I posted it in reputation since they should have whats invested - operating cost.
Token is bound to $ value all collected tokens were converted to $ when ICO concluded.

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February 16, 2020, 10:39:51 PM
Merited by joksim299 (1)
 #18

@Boxxob have you shown this to alex( I believe that's the owner) yet? Why hasn't he responded so far? Thread has been up for nearly a week.

I am not an investor so I would not like to speculate here. Alex could come in and set some things straight for users or at least explain some issues.



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joksim299
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Bitdice is scam scam scammmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


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February 16, 2020, 10:43:05 PM
 #19

@Boxxob have you shown this to alex( I believe that's the owner) yet? Why hasn't he responded so far? Thread has been up for nearly a week.

I am not an investor so I would not like to speculate here. Alex could come in and set some things straight for users or at least explain some issues.



I first posted it in reputation thread since they can fix things or at least explain what is happening.
I posted same questions in official thread @Boxxob who is representative do not have required info and old signature campaign members tried to make posts irrelevant.

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February 16, 2020, 11:22:55 PM
 #20

@Boxxob have you shown this to alex( I believe that's the owner) yet? Why hasn't he responded so far? Thread has been up for nearly a week.

I am not an investor so I would not like to speculate here. Alex could come in and set some things straight for users or at least explain some issues.



He is aware of the thread. I believe the biggest issue is that there's not been updates on the site. I've tried to explain that it's being worked currently and the new release is getting pretty close although there's still work to do.

This speculation is just that... speculation and I doubt it's going to change until there's a new release. Of course this is my personal opinion so feel free to disagree. As I've mentioned in multiple occasions, nobody is hiding the fact that there's been delays. I find it pretty silly to call the site a scam while things are being worked on. Right now it feels more like pressuring the site to rush out a release just for the sake of it.

I have personally seen what kind of progress has been made (for example how the new design is going to look like) but if people don't believe that, I'm unsure what else to say. The upcoming quarterly report should contain information and possibly concrete evidence of what has been done.

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