[ANN] Bisq - Exchange, Decentralized.

[LeGaulois]

The first improvement they should work on is with the software itself, instead to work on features and alike.

I don't know about you guys but to me, the software is really hard to use. I don't mean how to use it because a kid can do it. But it takes all the memory of my OS. Up to the point, I can not do anything else, not even keep a browser open. I often need to shut down the machine or software and try again and again...

When I have a transaction to confirm, if I need to do it before tonight, better I start to try early in the morning! I can not stay behind my screen all day long! I know, my specs are not huge (4+2 GB ram) but I believe it should be far enough. No idea what others use, I started to wonder if it could be better to run a VPS (considering you manage the security of the server efficiently or move your coins once finished)

I don't know what to say. Perhaps making a light version or something around. In a release not long ago, it was nicely improved but then in the next version, the problems start again. (usually the DAO synchronization).
I remember when I talked in PM with someone here, he told me he can't use it properly with less than 16gb RAM.

By the way, with the mobile application, you only receive notifications right? You can't do anything else (i.e. confirm a TX)

[1714796448]

1714796448

[1714796448]

1714796448

[DireWolfM14]

I would like to see more people using Bisq, and not considering it as some complicated boogeyman exchange.

I would too.  It's interesting that I don't see much advertising done by Bisq.  I guess since it's not really a "business" in the traditional sense of the word, the expectation is that it'll grow organically by word-of-mouth advertising.  I've been doing my part, lol.

I played around with Bisq some years ago, but never really used the service in earnest until around 8 or 9 months ago.  Since then it's been my favorite ('hehem, to borrow n0nce's term) on/off-ramp.  But it's also my favorite way to exchange BTC/XMR.

Bisq is currently available for desktop os (with mobile notifications), but it would be cool to have some basic mobile exchange version as well.

I'm in front of a PC most of the day, so I likely wouldn't get much use out of a mobile app, but I agree that would help draw more users.

[n0nce]

The first improvement they should work on is with the software itself, instead to work on features and alike.

I don't know about you guys but to me, the software is really hard to use. I don't mean how to use it because a kid can do it. But it takes all the memory of my OS. Up to the point, I can not do anything else, not even keep a browser open. I often need to shut down the machine or software and try again and again...

When I have a transaction to confirm, if I need to do it before tonight, better I start to try early in the morning! I can not stay behind my screen all day long! I know, my specs are not huge (4+2 GB ram) but I believe it should be far enough. No idea what others use, I started to wonder if it could be better to run a VPS (considering you manage the security of the server efficiently or move your coins once finished)

I don't know what to say. Perhaps making a light version or something around. In a release not long ago, it was nicely improved but then in the next version, the problems start again. (usually the DAO synchronization).

Wait what, for real? One of the computers I use is an old laptop, almost 10 years old. It was a decent, up-to-date entry level machine back then, and it struggles with video calls in the browser these days, but Bisq runs without a hitch.
I'm sure it could run better if it wasn't written in Java, but I've been using it on low-level hardware for years, always going smooth (with a bit of patience, like anything else on these older machines).
On modern hardware, it's blazing fast once it finished startup (during which it needs to connect to both Bisq and Bitcoin peers).

I remember when I talked in PM with someone here, he told me he can't use it properly with less than 16gb RAM.

I don't know what to say either: my old laptop has 8GB of RAM and I'm running other stuff in parallel, while having Bisq open and waiting for an open offer to be accepted.

By the way, with the mobile application, you only receive notifications right? You can't do anything else (i.e. confirm a TX)

Yes, it's for notifications only.

Bisq is currently available for desktop os (with mobile notifications), but it would be cool to have some basic mobile exchange version as well.

I don't know how it would be supposed to work with Bisq's current architecture, though. It requires at least the trade offer 'maker' to be online at all times, which is going to be hard on a mobile phone.

I would like to see more people using Bisq, and not considering it as some complicated boogeyman exchange.

I would too.  It's interesting that I don't see much advertising done by Bisq.  I guess since it's not really a "business" in the traditional sense of the word, the expectation is that it'll grow organically by word-of-mouth advertising.  I've been doing my part, lol.

That's right: since Bisq is not a business, they obviously don't have an advertising budget... But I'm considering designing myself a Bisq profile picture in the future.

[dkbit98]

I would too.  It's interesting that I don't see much advertising done by Bisq.  I guess since it's not really a "business" in the traditional sense of the word, the expectation is that it'll grow organically by word-of-mouth advertising.  I've been doing my part, lol.

It's similar situation with Bitcoin, it mostly has mouth to mouth advertisement, and they are working behind the scenes on updates and improvements.
You can't really advertise Bisq a lot in current state until they make some major changes that are coming in Bisq 2.0 Misq next-generation trading protocol.
If you check Bisq official githgub Roadmap you will see thewir next goals is to improve Liquidity, Security, Reliability, Onboarding and Management.
https://github.com/orgs/bisq-network/projects/3

I played around with Bisq some years ago, but never really used the service in earnest until around 8 or 9 months ago.  Since then it's been my favorite ('hehem, to borrow n0nce's term) on/off-ramp.  But it's also my favorite way to exchange BTC/XMR.

Atomic swaps would be best for this purpose, but I don't know what happened with project that offered easy BTC/XMR atomic swaps.

I'm in front of a PC most of the day, so I likely wouldn't get much use out of a mobile app, but I agree that would help draw more users.

Same as me, but you should consider that majority of people worldwide and mostly using their smartphones for everything, especially younger generation.
I am not expecting average grandpa will jump on using Bisq on smartphone for sure, but you never know

I don't know how it would be supposed to work with Bisq's current architecture, though. It requires at least the trade offer 'maker' to be online at all times, which is going to be hard on a mobile phone.

They would have to change a lot of things for sure, but some lightweight version could be created, at least for atomic swaps.
Misq is Bisq next-generation trading protocol, so I am expecting some nice surprises with new release.
There is one video about that release on their youtube channel with more information:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOarJpbg4EY

[n0nce]

I played around with Bisq some years ago, but never really used the service in earnest until around 8 or 9 months ago.  Since then it's been my favorite ('hehem, to borrow n0nce's term) on/off-ramp.  But it's also my favorite way to exchange BTC/XMR.

Atomic swaps would be best for this purpose, but I don't know what happened with project that offered easy BTC/XMR atomic swaps.

As far as I know, the challenge with Monero swaps was that it doesn't really have a scripting language which allows for what basically are simple smart contracts.
However, they started to work on a dedicated (as in 'not just using existing technology such as a scripting language') atomic swap 'feature' a few years ago and apparently it's live since August 2021.
https://www.getmonero.org/2021/08/20/atomic-swaps.html

Here's the paper that explains how they managed to accomplish it using so-called 'adaptor signatures'.
https://arxiv.org/pdf/2101.12332.pdf
https://arxiv.org/abs/2101.12332

I don't know how it would be supposed to work with Bisq's current architecture, though. It requires at least the trade offer 'maker' to be online at all times, which is going to be hard on a mobile phone.

They would have to change a lot of things for sure, but some lightweight version could be created, at least for atomic swaps.
Misq is Bisq next-generation trading protocol, so I am expecting some nice surprises with new release.
There is one video about that release on their youtube channel with more information:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOarJpbg4EY

Thanks for that; I have to check out what all this Bisq 2.0 fuzz is all about!

[dkbit98]

As far as I know, the challenge with Monero swaps was that it doesn't really have a scripting language which allows for what basically are simple smart contracts.
However, they started to work on a dedicated (as in 'not just using existing technology such as a scripting language') atomic swap 'feature' a few years ago and apparently it's live since August 2021.

I was thinking about one project that is still in development and it's called UnstoppableSwap for trustlessly exchanging Bitcoin for Monero using Atomic Swaps.
Problem is that you currently can't use it vice versa and exchange Monero for Bitcoin, so it only works in one direction.
I never tried using it myself, so I can't confirm how it works in real life, but good thing it has MIT License so everything can be inspected.

[DireWolfM14]

But I'm considering designing myself a Bisq profile picture in the future.

Nice avatar you got there, n0nce.  It suits you.

They would have to change a lot of things for sure, but some lightweight version could be created, at least for atomic swaps.
Misq is Bisq next-generation trading protocol, so I am expecting some nice surprises with new release.
There is one video about that release on their youtube channel with more information:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOarJpbg4EY

Thanks for that; I have to check out what all this Bisq 2.0 fuzz is all about!

I'm interested to see what Misq offers as well.  I've heard there'll be a social trading platform, and possibly some a lending platform as well.  Another P2P exchange has implemented a lending platform, but I haven't played with it.  Recently I've been avoiding any services that employ custodial wallets, and especially ones that request my identification.  That's one of the reasons I'm so pleased with Bisq.

I have heard that the bisq team is in desperate need for Java developers, so I'm assuming the Misq will be programmed in Java just like Bisq.  I'm not huge fan of Java, but if it's a stand-alone program it's less of a security risk than java web apps. 

[n0nce]

But I'm considering designing myself a Bisq profile picture in the future.

Nice avatar you got there, n0nce.  It suits you.

Thanks! I made it myself, promoting a few services that I find important to get more exposure, for free.

~snip~
I'm interested to see what Misq offers as well.  I've heard there'll be a social trading platform, and possibly some a lending platform as well.  Another P2P exchange has implemented a lending platform, but I haven't played with it.  Recently I've been avoiding any services that employ custodial wallets, and especially ones that request my identification.  That's one of the reasons I'm so pleased with Bisq.

Interesting. Do you remember what that other P2P exchange is called?

I have heard that the bisq team is in desperate need for Java developers, so I'm assuming the Misq will be programmed in Java just like Bisq.  I'm not huge fan of Java, but if it's a stand-alone program it's less of a security risk than java web apps. 

That's a pity. Rust is becoming more and more standard for important projects, especially in the Bitcoin space. I don't code in Rust myself, but I find its features and safety guarantees extremely useful.

[DireWolfM14]

Thanks! I made it myself, promoting a few services that I find important to get more exposure, for free.

I like to think of Bisq as a non-profit, even if they aren't officially registered as such (that I know of.)  As far as i can tell, all their earnings go to pay their developers and support staff, which is essentially how a non-profit operates.  It's noble of you to volunteer your efforts to help out.

Interesting. Do you remember what that other P2P exchange is called?

It's HodlHodl which has a lending service, but again, I've never used it.  There's another p2p exchange that's very similar that gets mentioned a lot around here; Localcryptos.  Localcyrptos claims to employ non-custodial wallets.  Paxful is yet another p2p exchange but I think they and HodlHodl use custodial wallets.  All three resemble Localbitcoins, so maybe they all started with a whitelabel version of the original Localbitcoins site.

I've avoided using these exchanges because AFIK they do require KYC.

That's a pity. Rust is becoming more and more standard for important projects, especially in the Bitcoin space. I don't code in Rust myself, but I find its features and safety guarantees extremely useful.

Thanks for addressing this, I had never heard of Rust language before.  I'll do a little reading about it when I get the chance.

[16xypjnxlrew]

I've avoided using these exchanges because AFIK they do require KYC.

Why do you avoid exchanges that require KYC? What's bad about it? What are you afraid of? Why do tens of millions of users have passed KYC and don't think about anything?

[Bitcoin_Arena]

Why do you avoid exchanges that require KYC? What's bad about it? What are you afraid of? Why do tens of millions of users have passed KYC and don't think about anything?

It's rather surprising that you don't know why some people avoid using exchanges that require KYC

One of the reasons is some exchanges Block users from certain countries using their services by identifying them from KYC. So they can't use such exchanges to buy or sell Bitcoin. Platforms like Bisq are a great option.

Also read this good post by 1miau: Why KYC is extremely dangerous – and useless

[DireWolfM14]

One of the reasons is some exchanges Block users from certain countries using their services by identifying them from KYC. So they can't use such exchanges to buy or sell Bitcoin. Platforms like Bisq are a great option.

Another reason to use p2p options whenever available is because that's how bitcoin was intended to be used.  The premise of institutional commercialization and  KYC requirements is the antithesis of the philosophy behind bitcoin.  It's meant to, and capable of freeing us from the Surveillance Sate.  Whenever people comply with KYC requirements they are only enable the SS to march on.

Not to stray to far off-topic; but this one of the reasons I'm opposed to alts in general.  For the most part they've been largely (by volume) scams, and the ones that aren't have largely failed to live up to promises.  There are notable exceptions, of course.  However, they have also served yet another sinister purpose that may or may not have been anticipated: Alts have largely become a mechanism for "legitimate exchanges" to get rich while selling out our privacy to regulatory agencies.

As this pertains to bisq; it is a very bitcoin-centric platform, but it does provide for convenient trading of XMR and it does offer provisions for trading many other alts.  So, even alts can be traded p2p and without KYC.

[16xypjnxlrew]

Another reason to use p2p options whenever available is because that's how bitcoin was intended to be used.  The premise of institutional commercialization and  KYC requirements is the antithesis of the philosophy behind bitcoin.  It's meant to, and capable of freeing us from the Surveillance Sate.  Whenever people comply with KYC requirements they are only enable the SS to march on.

Not to stray to far off-topic; but this one of the reasons I'm opposed to alts in general.  For the most part they've been largely (by volume) scams, and the ones that aren't have largely failed to live up to promises.  There are notable exceptions, of course.  However, they have also served yet another sinister purpose that may or may not have been anticipated: Alts have largely become a mechanism for "legitimate exchanges" to get rich while selling out our privacy to regulatory agencies.

As this pertains to bisq; it is a very bitcoin-centric platform, but it does provide for convenient trading of XMR and it does offer provisions for trading many other alts.  So, even alts can be traded p2p and without KYC.

P2P cannot give as much money as a crypto exchange can. For example, Carl The Moon has more than a few hundred million dollars and never hides from anyone. Why should an ordinary citizen be afraid of someone with a maximum of 0.10 BTC in their wallet?

[n0nce]

P2P cannot give as much money as a crypto exchange can. For example, Carl The Moon has more than a few hundred million dollars and never hides from anyone. Why should an ordinary citizen be afraid of someone with a maximum of 0.10 BTC in their wallet?

That's a pretty stupid statement. Satoshi could send an email to Adam Back tomorrow, negotiate a P2P trade with him for 1 million BTC, at a price that satoshi wants and Back can pay; they will meet and make the trade P2P. No problem. He could also do the same with an untrusted party through Bisq. One million BTC would be pretty high volume, and there's no technical reason Bisq can't do that or would do it worse than a centralized exchange. Remember Bitcoin transactions don't care about amounts; those are just numbers. Everything that works with small amounts (multisig contracts in Bisq, for example) also works the same with large amounts.

Besides the fact that your first statement ('P2P trading can't have as much volume as a centralized exchange') has nothing to do with your second one (something about hiding how much you own):
There are very legitimate reasons for not wanting everyone to know how much you own. For instance, not wanting to be attacked, killed and robbed.

Besides, P2P trading is not only about minimizing the amount of people that know how much you own. Here's an excerpt of things that decentralized P2P exchanges like Bisq generally do better than centralized ones.

• No KYC required. Read: [Why KYC is extremely dangerous – and useless]. Your documents can be stolen or 'lost' and used in actual crimes.
  
• Less trust required. Centralized exchanges can and do freeze funds, so every time you deposit money you cannot know if it will be credited to your account or deemed 'illicit' (even though you did nothing wrong) and just stolen from you. You also don't need to trust them to keep your KYC documents safe.
  
• It is decentralized. This means a variety of things, but some of them: [1] Censorship-resistant - governments or other powerful entities can't just shut it down. [2] No central point of failure (hacking attack / hostile company takeover etc.). [3] No business behind it that may be interested in exit-scamming their users. List goes on...
  
• No exit scam. As just alluded to; there's a huge list of exchanges that went off the radar or claimed being hacked of all of their funds, where it's clear they effectively stole those funds.
  
• No insane withdrawal fees. Related to above point: Centralized exchanges always try to make you leave your coins with them. It is often extremely expensive (e.g. $20 withdrawal fee) to actually get those BTC you bought into a wallet you actually own; or they try to convince you by offering dividends ('staking Bitcoins etc.'). As long as you don't withdraw, the exchange could go offline, it could geo-block your country, it could block your IP for 'illicit reasons' (something that can always be claimed, no matter if you did something illicit or not - keep this in mind), the exchange could claim your funds came from a crime, it could claim it was hacked and lost your funds, and other ways that would lead you without access to your money. Not being able to cheaply withdraw (read: actually get what you paid for) is a HUGE issue with centralized exchanges. Keeping funds on them should be seen as an 'optional service' and not the encouraged default.
  

Edit: You were a fool to shitpost in here. This made me aware of your scam attempts and got you another Flag Support. I still hope my post helps someone else.

Wait, you are unable to exchange your UST because the exchange requires a withdrawal fee of 1 UST? That just does not make sense. Do you even know how exchanges work?
In order to exchange your UST, you need to deposit it on the exchange, so you do not have to worry about the withdrawal fee and minimum withdrawal amount.

UST has been on the crypto exchange since the beginning of May. And in order to withdraw it to another wallet from the exchange, the exchange requires a huge commission. So I am locked with UST on the crypto exchange forever - when placing a sell order for 1 USDT order, they don't execute it, and they don't allow to withdraw it to exchange it with other users

Funny though, that you're experiencing the downsides of a centralized exchange and come here telling everyone how somehow centralized exchanges are better than P2P decentralized ones...

[16xypjnxlrew]

P2P cannot give as much money as a crypto exchange can. For example, Carl The Moon has more than a few hundred million dollars and never hides from anyone. Why should an ordinary citizen be afraid of someone with a maximum of 0.10 BTC in their wallet?

That's a pretty stupid statement. Satoshi could send an email to Adam Back tomorrow, negotiate a P2P trade with him for 1 million BTC, at a price that satoshi wants and Back can pay; they will meet and make the trade P2P. No problem. He could also do the same with an untrusted party through Bisq. One million BTC would be pretty high volume, and there's no technical reason Bisq can't do that or would do it worse than a centralized exchange. Remember Bitcoin transactions don't care about amounts; those are just numbers. Everything that works with small amounts (multisig contracts in Bisq, for example) also works the same with large amounts.

Besides the fact that your first statement ('P2P trading can't have as much volume as a centralized exchange') has nothing to do with your second one (something about hiding how much you own):
There are very legitimate reasons for not wanting everyone to know how much you own. For instance, not wanting to be attacked, killed and robbed.

Besides, P2P trading is not only about minimizing the amount of people that know how much you own. Here's an excerpt of things that decentralized P2P exchanges like Bisq generally do better than centralized ones.

• No KYC required. Read: [Why KYC is extremely dangerous – and useless]. Your documents can be stolen or 'lost' and used in actual crimes.
  
• Less trust required. Centralized exchanges can and do freeze funds, so every time you deposit money you cannot know if it will be credited to your account or deemed 'illicit' (even though you did nothing wrong) and just stolen from you. You also don't need to trust them to keep your KYC documents safe.
  
• It is decentralized. This means a variety of things, but some of them: [1] Censorship-resistant - governments or other powerful entities can't just shut it down. [2] No central point of failure (hacking attack / hostile company takeover etc.). [3] No business behind it that may be interested in exit-scamming their users. List goes on...
  
• No exit scam. As just alluded to; there's a huge list of exchanges that went off the radar or claimed being hacked of all of their funds, where it's clear they effectively stole those funds.
  
• No insane withdrawal fees. Related to above point: Centralized exchanges always try to make you leave your coins with them. It is often extremely expensive (e.g. $20 withdrawal fee) to actually get those BTC you bought into a wallet you actually own; or they try to convince you by offering dividends ('staking Bitcoins etc.'). As long as you don't withdraw, the exchange could go offline, it could geo-block your country, it could block your IP for 'illicit reasons' (something that can always be claimed, no matter if you did something illicit or not - keep this in mind), the exchange could claim your funds came from a crime, it could claim it was hacked and lost your funds, and other ways that would lead you without access to your money. Not being able to cheaply withdraw (read: actually get what you paid for) is a HUGE issue with centralized exchanges. Keeping funds on them should be seen as an 'optional service' and not the encouraged default.
  

Edit: You were a fool to shitpost in here. This made me aware of your scam attempts and got you another Flag Support. I still hope my post helps someone else.

Wait, you are unable to exchange your UST because the exchange requires a withdrawal fee of 1 UST? That just does not make sense. Do you even know how exchanges work?
In order to exchange your UST, you need to deposit it on the exchange, so you do not have to worry about the withdrawal fee and minimum withdrawal amount.

UST has been on the crypto exchange since the beginning of May. And in order to withdraw it to another wallet from the exchange, the exchange requires a huge commission. So I am locked with UST on the crypto exchange forever - when placing a sell order for 1 USDT order, they don't execute it, and they don't allow to withdraw it to exchange it with other users

Funny though, that you're experiencing the downsides of a centralized exchange and come here telling everyone how somehow centralized exchanges are better than P2P decentralized ones...

More trading pairs on centralized exchanges, staking, futures, borrow/lend and more.
What scam attempts are you referring to? And you're support a flag accusing me of a scam that doesn't exist? Can't you see that I'm a victim? Do you support those who abuse their authority? Did you carefully understand this situation, or did you read 2 words and immediately clicked? You should have pressed the "Oppose" button.

[DireWolfM14]

Not sure if any of you had noticed, but the Bisq price server was having some issues this week.  It looks like one of the price providers wasn't giving any volume, which affected the pricing displayed on Bisq.  Many were in the support room on bisq.chat complaining that the XMR pricing was way off.

Emzy opened an issue about it on Github which explains more: https://github.com/bisq-network/bisq-pricenode/issues/10

Yesterday the price node was updated: https://github.com/bisq-network/bisq/pull/6229#issue-1253270497
Here's the new chart: https://bisq.wiki/Bisq_Price_Indices#Asset_Table

[citb0in]

Hello everybody. I am 'kinda' new here and looking for a way to purchase BTC on a decentralized way. I do NOT want to register on any known centralized exchange and process KYC procedure for the reasons mentioned on that link. I was referred to this great piece of P2P software called Bisq unfortunately I still struggle at the first hurdle --> How do buy the suggested first 0.002 BTC (two millibitcoins) to start? The FAQ link is not really a help for me. I live in Germany and there is no bitcoin/ATM nearby where I could purchase a small amount by cash without KYC. I already posted in the particular subforum marketplace where I am looking for someone to buy a small amount via Paypal Friends/Family but without luck yet. In case I get to my first 0.002 BTC I would really like to download, install and use Bisq. Looking forward to any assistance, please reply either via PM or on my marketplace forum post. Thanks!

[dkbit98]

How do buy the suggested first 0.002 BTC (two millibitcoins) to start?

Bisq is very good for trading Bitcoin, but it's not so great when you want to buy your first Bitcoin because you need to send BTC security deposit before making a purchase.
Alternative options you could try using is LocalCryptos and find people who want to trade Paypal for Bitcoin.
There are a lot more services you could find on Bestchange website, but they are all custodial and they can ask you for kyc at any time.

I already posted in the particular subforum marketplace where I am looking for someone to buy a small amount via Paypal Friends/Family but without luck yet. In case I get to my first 0.002 BTC I would really like to download, install and use Bisq. Looking forward to any assistance.

I would suggest using some of the trusted escrows in forum that would help you making a purchase of Bitcoin with Paypal.
Paying a small fee will make sure nobody is scammed, especially with reversible payment options like Paypal is involved.
I see your email was recently changed, so that may be one of the the reasons nobody responded in your topic so far.

[citb0in]

I tried Paxful some days ago. My first trade was a SCAM, I lost <20 EUR because the seller never paid the agreed amount. The other trade was success, I have purchased abt 10 EUR in Bitcoin but the sad story is --> I cannot send the small mBTC amount to my personal wallet because Paxful asks me to perform KYC. Man, that really sucks! BTW: The reason I changed my email address here on forum was because initially I didn't know if this forum is good or bad and if I would stay here so I used a one-time disposal email address. After I registered and realized that this forum is very frequently visited with lot of content and good replies from many pros I changed it to my correct email address. Thanks for the hint with escrow service. There is someone in here who is doing escrow service, I also got referred to him in one of my very first posts here. Have to search for it (him). I will try that, too ...

thank you so much for reply.

[bct_ail]

There is someone in here who is doing escrow service, I also got referred to him in one of my very first posts here. Have to search for it (him).

That will certainly be willi9974 from the german part of this forum.