For DT1 members: mhanbostanci & alts

[nullius]

This caught my attention:

these pages try to associate bitcoin addresses that are traded between them. The information they provide is not precise. Transactions between those addresses does not indicate that those addresses are the same wallet.
they claim that these addresses are generated from the same wallet.
The way to prove that it is produced from the same private key is to run SHA256 in reverse. this is not possible.
lauda and her followers prefer to assume that they are the same wallet.

To the contrary.  When properly applied, blockchain heuristics are frighteningly precise.  With the relatively simple-looking transactions shown in this thread, the only ways that the heuristics generally will give a false positive in connecting addresses are if evidence is misinterpreted as to an unusual exchange wallet, or if people are taking sophisticated active measures to confuse the heuristics (something that I know because I am studying how best to do this).  Obviously, neither of those is the case here.

mhanbostanci admits that the accounts are somehow related to him.  In my technical opinion, the blockchain evidence is very strong—and the blockchain evidence contradicts mhanbostanci’s story.  When the evidence is considered in its totality, it clearly demonstrates that the accounts are (or at pertinent times, have been) controlled by the same individual.

But worst of all is mhanbostanci’s attempt to blow smoke with technical jargon, whereas he is not even sufficiently knowledgeable to make up convincing nonsense.  At the portion that I have highlighted, I almost suspect that mhanbostanci read and misinterpreted my recent post on this subject.  Of course, two different addresses for the same script type cannot be produced from the same Bitcoin private key (!); and inverting SHA256 is irrelevant to inverting HMAC-SHA512 and somehow separating the tweak from the EC public key exposed on the blockchain (the latter part of which I did not mention in that other post, because it seemed irrelevant in the context).

When he gets to the point of claiming that blockchain evidence is unreliable because you can’t invert SHA256, mhanbostanci is clearly just making stuff up as he goes along.

ignorance is bad.

Yes.  Case in point:  mhanbostanci.

The lie is the biggest sin.

Yes.  Case in point:  mhanbostanci.

Re self-mod:  Nothing that I have ever seen from Lauda gives even the slightest hint that she would unfairly prevent an accused individual from speaking in his own defence in a thread against him.  Whereas if this thread were not self-moderated, I expect that it would be already on page 3 with mostly troll gibberish and garbage insults.

Despite my general reluctance to post in self-moderated threads where I do not know OP’s policy or whether my post may be unexpected deleted, the case for self-mod here should be quite clear to anybody who has followed all the time-wasting idiot-drama on other threads.

The accused members are free to post fully and whenever they want to. Self-mod is not for me to take away the power of the accused to defend themselves, but to protect myself from the usual trolls.

The big problem here:

Reminder, all three accounts are apparently in DT2.

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[TECSHARE]

Weird how all of these endless accusations against anyone even mildly related to any Turkish members need to be self moderated all of a sudden. It is almost like the posters aren't at all willing to have an open discussion about it and instead prefer to erase anyone who disagrees with their opinions or makes any valid points in order to give the impression everyone is in agreement.

[suchmoon]

Weird how all of these endless accusations against anyone even mildly related to any Turkish members need to be self moderated all of a sudden. It is almost like the posters aren't at all willing to have an open discussion about it and instead prefer to erase anyone who disagrees with their opinions or makes any valid points in order to give the impression everyone is in agreement.

Let's try it - post some valid on topic points and we'll see what happens. You can always re-post it in a REEEEE thread if the evil cat deletes it.

[amishmanish]

Self-moderating has its issues. The major one being that then people can easily obfuscate and behave like they have been wronged which implies they were "righteous" in the first place and the "authorities" fear their truth, whatever it was.

Bu konuya ilk mesaji ben attim ve savundum ancak La tarafindan mesajim silindi. Yani doğru savunma yapanlarin mesajini silip, yanlis savunma yapacak olanlarin uzerinden saldiri yapacak ve kendilerini hakli çikartacaklar. Karsi taraf manipulasyon uzmani..

Translation:

I posted and defended the first post on this subject but my message was deleted by La. In other words, they will delete the message of the righteous defenders, attack those who will make the wrong defense, and justify themselves. Counterparty manipulation specialist.

[Lauda]

Self-moderating has its issues. The major one being that then people can easily obfuscate and behave like they have been wronged which implies they were "righteous" in the first place and the "authorities" fear their truth, whatever it was.

Bu konuya ilk mesaji ben attim ve savundum ancak La tarafindan mesajim silindi. Yani doğru savunma yapanlarin mesajini silip, yanlis savunma yapacak olanlarin uzerinden saldiri yapacak ve kendilerini hakli çikartacaklar. Karsi taraf manipulasyon uzmani..

Translation:

I posted and defended the first post on this subject but my message was deleted by La. In other words, they will delete the message of the righteous defenders, attack those who will make the wrong defense, and justify themselves. Counterparty manipulation specialist.

He is not the accused, and thus his stories are of no concern of me. If he can provide evidence for his claim, then he can post and it will remain where it is.

[Blacknavy]

Self-moderating has its issues. The major one being that then people can easily obfuscate and behave like they have been wronged which implies they were "righteous" in the first place and the "authorities" fear their truth, whatever it was.

Bu konuya ilk mesaji ben attim ve savundum ancak La tarafindan mesajim silindi. Yani doğru savunma yapanlarin mesajini silip, yanlis savunma yapacak olanlarin uzerinden saldiri yapacak ve kendilerini hakli çikartacaklar. Karsi taraf manipulasyon uzmani..

Translation:

I posted and defended the first post on this subject but my message was deleted by La. In other words, they will delete the message of the righteous defenders, attack those who will make the wrong defense, and justify themselves. Counterparty manipulation specialist.

He is not the accused, and thus his stories are of no concern of me. If he can provide evidence for his claim, then he can post and it will remain where it is.

I wrote this (it was deleted by La):

Zz is a college student, and mhanbostanci is an adult. Both are known by forum members.

mhanbostanci:

Tüf Tüf nedir? diye bilmeyen arkadaşlar için : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYvHbYmhOC0
yaş 41 hocam, yaşımız geçti artık. Kağıt ile daha güzel olur hem.
Biri bana 2 side arkadaşlara bulursak oda.. olmadı pazartesi salı sipariş edeceğim.
Bu arada uçlar kalemden daha pahalı.

I'm 41 years old (I'll not write which company that he works for).


Zz:

.
.
ürünü fabrika çıkış fiyatına alıp, ucuz elektrik kullanır, bekletir boğa piyasasın da satarsanız 18 ay olur size 4 - 5 ay.
.
.

Ütopik şartlar altında kar mümkün yani. Türkiye'de olup fabrika çıkış fiyatından miner alabilen yoktur.
Zaten fabrika çıkış fiyatından miner alabilen kişi Türkiye'de ne yapsın? Bu işi daha makul bir ülkede yapıyordur.


Kendi madencilik tecrübemi paylaşayım.
Bir kaç kişi birleşerek yılbaşı harçlıklarını birleştirerek güzel bir ekran kartı aldık yurt dışından. 1500 TL ye mal olmuştu bize.
Şubat 2017 de okullar tatil olunca arkadaşların evdeki hurda PC parçalarından bir sistem topladık.
Biz monero kazmaya başladığımızda Monero 13$ idi. üstelik sistemi evinde tutacak arkadaş biraz mal olduğundan işi minergate ile yaptık.
minergate ile cpu + gpu toplam 650 H/s basıyordu sistem. o zamanki zorluk ile ayda 0.125 monero kazıyordu yaklaşık.
rigi evinde barındıran arkadaşım elektrik maliyetini ders çalışarak iyi bir birey olarak ödedi.

1 yılın sonunda elimizde yaklaşık 2 monero vardı yaklaşık. 400 doların üstüne çıkınca satalım amk moduna girdi arkadaşlar.
biz satana kadar 370 dolara düşmüştü. komisyondu btc/usd/tl dönüşümü derken 700 dolar karşılığı  2600 TL dönmüş oldu.
bu sene şubat tatilinde parayı ezdik.

We built a PC at February 2017 with school friends when the schools were on holiday.

Bilal Bey,
Bitcoin tamam da,

oyun parası ticareti kazandırıyor mu? çünkü Etherium şu oyunun  http://etherium-thegame.com/ kendi içinde dağıttığı oyun parası benim bildiğim.

Ha siz Ethereum alıp satıp ama daha ismini yazamıyorsanız. size değil elimdeki Bitcoin veya Ethereum u günahımı bile satmam.

 

 http://etherium-thegame.com burayı nereden buldunuz, oyun için paranın etherium olduğunu nereden öğrendiniz hocam:))

Oyun sever bir insanım.
Daha okulda açılmadı. Araştırıp didiklemeyi seviyorum.

The school hasn't started yet.

Ayrımı yapamayan bir kitle olduğu gerçek ama.
Dün okulda matematik öğretmeni ile tartıştık. Bitcoin zinciri dedi bir kaç defa. Dedim o blok zinciri o! (öğren de gel atarı yaptım yani) pek bozuldu.
Bence de tartışılacak bir konu değil bu.

Nedense aklıma GNU nun açılımı geldi : Gnu Not Unix
https://tr.0wikipedia.org/index.php?q=aHR0cHM6Ly90ci53aWtpcGVkaWEub3JnL3dpa2kvR05V

We discussed about Bitcoin with the math teacher at school yesterday.

It is known by the community that both users are different person.


Nobody has to explain whether they really know someone in the forum or if they have a relative. You talk about the importance of staying anonymous but trying to reveal users's personal information by digging Bitcoin addresses (lmao). Bitcoin is an P2P Electronic Cash System, it's very funny to try to detect the connections between users' Bitcoin addresses. Satoshi would spit on your face if he saw that.

As a few clowns, you continue to make forum members laugh (there is not a race card, but is the CLOWN CAR.)

DT gangs are driving into the high-paid sig campaings.

[suchmoon]

You talk about the importance of staying anonymous but trying to reveal users's personal information by digging Bitcoin addresses

It's pretty much the opposite. Bitcoin transactions are public but don't reveal personal information. All this "digging" shows is that multiple addresses are controlled by the same person but doesn't show anything specific about that person. Unless by "personal information" you mean sockpuppeting, which is what's going on here. Sockpuppeting, attempting to do a fake trade, getting busted, lying about it - such a trustworthy person you all decided to put into DT1.

[TECSHARE]

Self-moderating has its issues. The major one being that then people can easily obfuscate and behave like they have been wronged which implies they were "righteous" in the first place and the "authorities" fear their truth, whatever it was.

Bu konuya ilk mesaji ben attim ve savundum ancak La tarafindan mesajim silindi. Yani doğru savunma yapanlarin mesajini silip, yanlis savunma yapacak olanlarin uzerinden saldiri yapacak ve kendilerini hakli çikartacaklar. Karsi taraf manipulasyon uzmani..

Translation:

I posted and defended the first post on this subject but my message was deleted by La. In other words, they will delete the message of the righteous defenders, attack those who will make the wrong defense, and justify themselves. Counterparty manipulation specialist.

He is not the accused, and thus his stories are of no concern of me. If he can provide evidence for his claim, then he can post and it will remain where it is.

There are plenty of other people here chiming in who are "not the accused" either, but they agree with you, so they count right?

[marlboroza]

~

Do you agree with blockchain connection https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5247998.msg54430075#msg54430075 ?
Seems mhanbostanci can't decide which feedback to use:



I am still trying to figure out "slander" and "controversial data" parts.

[Lauda]

I wrote this (it was deleted by La):

Zz is a college student, and mhanbostanci is an adult. Both are known by forum members.

I write on one of my accounts that I am Atatürk, and in other alt account I write that I am Nietzsche. They get connected to via wallet evidence using chain analysis tools. Will you say that this is definite proof that the other is not my alt account? You believe every word these two monkeys write and take it as evidence, while doing the opposite with people who you do not like (not even for valid reasons). Stupidity at its finest.

[Blacknavy]

I wrote this (it was deleted by La):

Zz is a college student, and mhanbostanci is an adult. Both are known by forum members.

I write on one of my accounts that I am Atatürk, and in other alt account I write that I am Nietzsche. They get connected to via wallet evidence using chain analysis tools. Will you say that this is definite proof that the other is not my alt account? You believe every word these two monkeys write and take it as evidence, while doing the opposite with people who you do not like (not even for valid reasons). Stupidity at its finest.

Skipping some possibilities is also stupid.

For example; as can be seen below, besides my own investments, I also manage the investments of my brother, mother, aunt and uncle.

26 May 2019 [IMG1]
Blacknavy: Aunt X, if I sell them now it costs 5000 Euros. When the Stex exchange opened for testing, the price jumped up to $0.7 then the trade closed. Token will be on the new exchange soon. If it is $0.2, the market cap is only 13.5 million. Instead of selling, you should stake them.
Aunt: You know. The decision is yours.
Blacknavy: The price may increase when it listed a good exchange. If you want me to sell my uncle's share, I will sell it.

3 April 2019 [IMG2]
Blacknavy: I like Doge. It is raising now, aunt X, please send me a USDT address. Do you have an exchange account that you can buy Doge?
Aunt X: Kraken.
Blacknavy: I'll send you USDT to buy it.
Aunt X: I wrote the USDT address to your Telegram.

If there is a connection between my aunt's USDT address and my USDT address, does that mean that my aunt and I are the same person? It is known to everyone that Bitcoin has grown via word of mouth. Many relatives and friends became members of this forum and invested in Bitcoin as a result of my recommendations [IMG3] [IMG4]. So how right is it to find a connection between the Bitcoin addresses of users we dislike and forget about all their trustworthy backgrounds and fuck them? Who is making up these ridiculous fake-rules? Case1, Case2, Case-million because we created a trust list (as Theymos recommended) and applied for some high-paying signatures? If you have a right to do this, why don't we have a right? This hypocritical behavior was the biggest proof that most default trust members are actually untrustworthy. It is very easy to become a default trust member, only 10 users need to trust someone, and there is no need to do grouping to do this. You just don't want users who do not respect current authority to be default trust member. There is no racism directly against the Turks here, you all have various reasons to give distrust/red trust. Some of them are racist attacks (The behavior of many default trust members are embarrassing and humiliating themselves. I'm saying this as a national socialist.), and some users trying to save their fake-authority. We don't care whether you or anyone else loves the Turks, but we know that the deliberate defamations against us are also ignored by many default trust members because we created a trust list.

Here is the real problem: the dirty tactics the fake and corrupt DT cult employs to control who gets to make any money on this forum.

[suchmoon]

Blacknavy: I like Doge. It is raising now, aunt X, please send me a USDT address. Do you have an exchange account that you can buy Doge?
Aunt X: Kraken.
Blacknavy: I'll send you USDT to buy it.
Aunt X: I wrote the USDT address to your Telegram.

If there is a connection between my aunt's USDT address and my USDT address, does that mean that my aunt and I are the same person?

I don't know if you're really that dumb or just being deliberately obtuse.

This topic is not merely about a "connection" between two addresses, e.g. funds sent between them like in your little story above. mhanbostanci's addresses are linked as inputs to the same transaction, meaning the same person has control of their private keys. There are some other highly unlikely possibilities but it's safe to ignore them seeing how the only counter-arguments (if you can call them that) so far are focused on the "friends and family" excuse and on dismissing blockchain evidence altogether.

[Blacknavy]

Blacknavy: I like Doge. It is raising now, aunt X, please send me a USDT address. Do you have an exchange account that you can buy Doge?
Aunt X: Kraken.
Blacknavy: I'll send you USDT to buy it.
Aunt X: I wrote the USDT address to your Telegram.

If there is a connection between my aunt's USDT address and my USDT address, does that mean that my aunt and I are the same person?

I don't know if you're really that dumb or just being deliberately obtuse.

This topic is not merely about a "connection" between two addresses, e.g. funds sent between them like in your little story above. mhanbostanci's addresses are linked as inputs to the same transaction, meaning the same person has control of their private keys. There are some other highly unlikely possibilities but it's safe to ignore them seeing how the only counter-arguments (if you can call them that) so far are focused on the "friends and family" excuse and on dismissing blockchain evidence altogether.

There's someone stupid here, I think it's you who try to twist my messages. Many investments of my relatives are in my hardware wallet (one seed includes milllion addresses in the same wallet as you already know). Have you managed any funds in your life? Do you know what a fund pool means, what does it mean? Or are you only interested in signature campaigns?

[Lauda]

Blacknavy: I like Doge. It is raising now, aunt X, please send me a USDT address. Do you have an exchange account that you can buy Doge?
Aunt X: Kraken.
Blacknavy: I'll send you USDT to buy it.
Aunt X: I wrote the USDT address to your Telegram.

If there is a connection between my aunt's USDT address and my USDT address, does that mean that my aunt and I are the same person?

I don't know if you're really that dumb or just being deliberately obtuse.

This topic is not merely about a "connection" between two addresses, e.g. funds sent between them like in your little story above. mhanbostanci's addresses are linked as inputs to the same transaction, meaning the same person has control of their private keys. There are some other highly unlikely possibilities but it's safe to ignore them seeing how the only counter-arguments (if you can call them that) so far are focused on the "friends and family" excuse and on dismissing blockchain evidence altogether.

There's someone stupid here, I think it's you who try to twist my messages. Many investments of my relatives are in my hardware wallet (one seed includes milllion addresses in a same wallet as you already know). Have you managed any funds in your life? Do you know what a fund pool means, what does it mean? Or are you only interested in signature campaigns?

If you use the same accounts on the same hardware wallets for many of your relatives then you deserve to be tagged for stupidity sake and to warn others that dealing with you is a risk. The same hardware wallet, being used with multiple accounts (1 account 1 relative, as it was designed to be) and used by an 10 000 relatives would never create a transaction like the one that OP and his alt did.

Do you really think you understand wallets better than I do? Facepalm. Was this situation the reverse, and the thread was Lauda & some other account you would be fighting to the death, given the same evidence, to prove it was indeed an alt. Time to stop lying, and time to stop defending abusers.

[Blacknavy]

Blacknavy: I like Doge. It is raising now, aunt X, please send me a USDT address. Do you have an exchange account that you can buy Doge?
Aunt X: Kraken.
Blacknavy: I'll send you USDT to buy it.
Aunt X: I wrote the USDT address to your Telegram.

If there is a connection between my aunt's USDT address and my USDT address, does that mean that my aunt and I are the same person?

I don't know if you're really that dumb or just being deliberately obtuse.

This topic is not merely about a "connection" between two addresses, e.g. funds sent between them like in your little story above. mhanbostanci's addresses are linked as inputs to the same transaction, meaning the same person has control of their private keys. There are some other highly unlikely possibilities but it's safe to ignore them seeing how the only counter-arguments (if you can call them that) so far are focused on the "friends and family" excuse and on dismissing blockchain evidence altogether.

There's someone stupid here, I think it's you who try to twist my messages. Many investments of my relatives are in my hardware wallet (one seed includes milllion addresses in a same wallet as you already know). Have you managed any funds in your life? Do you know what a fund pool means, what does it mean? Or are you only interested in signature campaigns?

If you use the same accounts on the same hardware wallets for many of your relatives then you deserve to be tagged for stupidity sake and to warn others that dealing with you is a risk. The same hardware wallet, being used with multiple accounts (1 account 1 relative, as it was designed to be) and used by relatives can never create a transaction like the one that OP and his alt did.

Do you really think you understand wallets better than I do? Facepalm.

If there are 2 UTXO in the same Bitcoin wallet, why not?

[Lauda]

If there is 2 UTXO in the same Bitcoin wallet, why not?

Welcome to a new concept for your very limited knowledge about Bitcoin: Accounts in HD wallets (No, not the old accounts system from Bitcoin Core). See: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0032 or https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0032.mediawiki#Specification_Wallet_structure.



Hardware wallets have accounts trivially built in. If you accept deposits in m/0 for relative 1, and you use m/1 for your own money, then you will not be able to create a TX linking UTXOs from both accounts (m/0 and m/1). Not that you should ever pool coins from anyone.

[Blacknavy]

If there is 2 UTXO in the same Bitcoin wallet, why not?

Welcome to a new concept for your very limited knowledge about Bitcoin: Accounts in HD wallets (No, not the old accounts system from Bitcoin Core). See: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0032 or https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0032.mediawiki#Specification_Wallet_structure.



Hardware wallets have accounts trivially built in. If you accept deposits in m/0 for relative 1, and you use m/1 for your own money, then you will not be able to create a TX linking UTXOs from both accounts.

I'm not using different path with my relatives. Maybe was he using Electrum?

Saniye de 10, 100, 200 milyon gibi private keyleri bulacağını iddia eden yazılımlar var. Uçuk bir teori. İnsanın ömrü yetmiyor bir kere. Ne kadar başarılı olacağından söz etmiyorum. Konu o değil. Seed keyin bulunması zaten zor.

1- Direkt düz mantık olarak gidelim. Örneğin, Ledger cüzdanımıza ait erişim anahtarı (seed key) bu program ile bulundu. Direkt çalacak olan kişi kendi cüzdanına çekebilir mi?

Yoksa ledger buna izin vermiyor ve o usb cihazın illa ki pc ye takılı olması mı gerekiyor, bu şekilde mi ancak transfer işlemleri başlayacak?

2- Ledger bize bitcoin adresinin 50 küsür basamaklı erişim anahtarını veriyor mu? İkincisi seed key olarak değil örneğin 52 basamaklı private key bitcoin adresini herhangi bir yazılım buldu. O erişim anahtarını electrum, blockchain vs aktarmasına ledger engel olacak mı?

----------------

Ledgerin yerinde olsam ingilizce karakterlerin yer aldığı o kelimeleri bizlerin oluşturmasına izin verirdim. türkçe, ispanyolca, çince neyse kısaca latin alfabesi içeren kelimeleri biz oluşturacağız ki iyice zorluk artsın. Chrome tarayıcıdan biz kelimeleri yazarız ve cihazın bu kelimeler ile cüzdan oluşturmasını kastediyorum. Çünkü bu kelimeler sözlük de yer alıyor. Şu anda değil ama gelecekte belki quantum bilgisayarlar ile zor anlar yaşayacağız.

Her cüzdanın kendine ait bir derivation path'ı vardır.
Seed'i bulan kişinin aynı zamanda senin cüzdanının pathini bulması gerekir. (Ledger farklı path kullanır, MEW farklı kullanır vsvs.)
Piyasada en çok kullanılan cüzdanların pathlerini deneyerek/otomatik bir yazılımla Ledger'e ihtiyaç duymadan çok kolay bir şekilde kripto paralarına ulaşabilirsin.
Ledger sana hiçbir şey vermiyor ama sahip olduğun 12/24 kelime ile her adresin 'tek tek' private keylerine bip39 üzerinden erişebiliyorsun ama Ledger'i güvenli kılan bu private keylerin dışarı çıkartılmamış olması.. Yani böyle aksiyonlara zor durumda kalmadıkça gerek yok. Ledger hiçbir şeye engel olamaz sadece bir cüzdan ve arayüzdür. Her şey blockchain içerisindedir, private key kimde ise cüzdan sahibi odur.

I know what is derivation path.

[Lauda]

I'm not using different path with my relatives.

You should be tagged as somebody as a risk to deal with then. You should never ever use crypto in the way that you are.

Maybe was he using Electrum?

No.

I know what is derivation path.

Wrong. You think you know, but you actually have next to no idea which is a terrible character flaw.

Stop going around in circles asking trivially deniable questions as the above. If the next post is another useless roundabout charade way of trying to defend the accused without any evidence, then it will be deleted.

[marlboroza]

And yet you find this as rock solid connection https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5219960.msg53689508#msg53689508

Many investments of my relatives are in my hardware wallet

ekhem...

those signatures belong to different wallets.

We have here 2 signed messages from 2/4 addresses connected in one wallet while mhanbostanci claim it is not the same wallet and I have no reason to think that iasenko made this story.

[Blacknavy]

You should be tagged as somebody as a risk to deal with then.

Off-topic (lmao). Managing relative's investments isn't wrong. It is an investment pool.

Wrong. You think you know, but you actually have next to no idea which is a terrible character flaw.

I don't think so, I need to have technical English to be able to speak about such technical issues. I have insufficient English to express myself here, but I am aware of what it means.

And yet you find this as rock solid connection

There is not only address connection, but also personality similarity, spelling characteristics and registration dates are similar. In this case, there are 2 different characters. Also, off-topic.

We have here 2 signed messages from 2/4 addresses connected in one wallet while mhanbostanci claim it is not the same wallet and I have no reason to think that iasenko made this story.

Maybe he had to lie because he knew you wouldn't believe him? There is always a possibility here.

"So how right is it to find a connection between the Bitcoin addresses of users we dislike and forget about all their trustworthy backgrounds?"