JJG’s Outline of Bitcoin Investment Ideas

[Obulis]

The idea of someone has to finish building some cash aside, before starting buying bitcoin, it seen to me as totally waste of opportunities, because both the cash and bitcoin position can be built at the same time without you hoping for one to finish before starting another one. The must important point here is to start accumulating your bitcoin investment no matter what, in gradually and consistently process. As a serious investor who truly believe in long term bitcoin investment, don’t have to delay their starting of bitcoin accumulation, even if they don’t have enough money, they can small and be consistent with it until they build a meaningful bitcoin position.

I don't understand what you meant by " has to finish building cash aside" but if I get what you saying correctly I think it is impossible for someone to have all the money needed for them to kick start their investment because investment money  or funds can not be gather all and waiting to do this will or may take the folk the whole life time and yet they won't still be able to gather it. So, what is reasonable is figuring your discretionary and work with it and don't look at how small but Instead focus on consistency.

It is completely wrong to consider building money separately before investing it into Bitcoin, such practice is more or less excuse not to invest in Bitcoin. The time the investor is building that money in fiat is like exposing the money to inflation and the possibility of using the money for something else that is not Bitcoin investong. The time the investor is using to build that money in fiat is supposed be used to accumulate Bitcoin gradually using the DCA method or any other method that allow the investor imvest gradually and regularly. There is no point accumulating fiat before investing it into Bitcoin, the investor can invest the fiat as they come.

Separately building funds before starting Bitcoin investment is totally not reasonable. It is a different thing when ordinarily these would be Bitcoiner already has this fiat before thinking of Bitcoin, if not, just call it bullshit, bullshit that waiting for the dip is even far better than. if the intention to invest in Bitcoin is already existing then why should a newbie wait until they have all the money before starting and how much would be enough to start with?
What could make someone to think in this manner of first building fiat before investing in Bitcoin?

Best advice or question to such thinkers:
This matter points at the advantages of DCAing, why not invest immediately using DCA strategy as the supposed money to be kept gets into your savings? Because you are giving your funds the chances to immediately start being more valuable than other fiat even those in the bank.

[Grease5000]

]

I'm always of the opinion that people should know the risks involved in whatever investment endeavour they are going into and bitcoin isn't excluded because, let's face it, there is risk involved and even though bitcoin has never failed to impress over the years that it has been around there is still no guarantee that it won't fail tomorrow so anyone investing in bitcoin should do so while knowing that their success isn't guaranteed, invest from your discretionary income but more importantly invest with money you can afford to lose, I'm not saying you will lose it, I'm just saying that there is a possibility of it happening.

This is why it's  important to gain basic knowledge  before you start buying and  why you should only invest using your discretionary income, but I don't  think an investor will fully understand how Bitcoin operate without owning a portion of it. Because when you own it, it gives you practical knowledge and reasons to learn more about it.

And when say invest only with the “money you can afford to lose”  It make Bitcoin investment sound more like gambling.  And for someone investing for the long term, the best approach is to use discretionary income, meaning money that is left after taking care of important needs. Bitcoin can fall heavily, so the person should understand that and be ready to hold through those periods. The person should understand the risk and be ready to hold through those periods without being forced to sell.

[JayJuanGee]

[edited out

Not just in Bitcoin, but in every other investment, anything can happen. In the outside world, we have seen how potential and reliable investments can still end up failing. No investment is 100% guaranteed to be successful because anything can happen along the way.

When I was new to Bitcoin some years ago, it was always advisable for investors to invest an amount they can afford to lose. This is not because Bitcoin investment is uncertain, but because anything can happen. What happened with the Coldcard hardware wallet is a lesson for investors to embrace technical research to understand more about the security aspects of wallets.

FTFY

You are cutting off an important part of the statement in your fantasy attempt to act as if your bitcoin investment is "risk free," when it is not.

Learning withdrawal and at the same time learning Bitcoin investment process are literally nice idea to a very reasonable extent. Just the postulation of JJG's on outline of Bitcoin Investment Idea, is an educative idea to work with especially on Bitcoin investment. And investment needs quiet time and best commitment to have the needed knowledge to help escape losing capital investment rather than optimizing in profit making. So, I see that the best option should be learning the withdrawal methods before going into investment to gain at least the necessary basic knowledge of do and not in Bitcoin trading system. And if learning and investment basic knowledge are being split into categories the knowledge will appreciate and carry both task at the same time.

There is nothing wrong in learning how to withdraw our bitcoin and as a matter of fact that should be among the basic knowledge that one ought to know before going into bitcoin investment. however, knowing how to withdraw our bitcoin does not mean someone should focus on withdrawing any small profit they see in their bitcoin otherwise it becomes trading and it is not advisable for newbie to be trading bitcoin because there is a high chances of them losing their funds.

There is nothing wrong with learning how to withdraw Bitcoin because how to withdraw Bitcoin is an important part of digital finance but we think that at the initial stage, investors should focus only on depositing Bitcoin rather than analyzing this complex issue. We probably all know about this basic method of withdrawal that is depositing Bitcoin on a centralized exchange i.e. any exchange and selling it in a local currency and the other is buying Bitcoin within the exchange using local currency through P2P and transferring from one wallet to another.

Honestly it seems to me the most important aspect is that if someone has discretionary income, they should start investing immediately and once they have a certain high amount of Bitcoin deposited, they should transfer it to a non-custodial wallet, maybe it will be possible to learn this while saving Bitcoin regularly.

Buying and selling bitcoin is part of the basics to get started, yet withdrawing bitcoin is not, since it is not required to set up a private bitcoin wallet or to know how to set up a private wallet in order to get started buying bitcoin.

That's wrong mate. What do you want to learn how to withdraw your bitcoin to where? Since, you said it's part of the basic knowledge which I disagree with you. Which bitcoin do you want to withdraw when you don't have any.

Bro learning about bitcoin and accumulating bitcoin are not mutually exclusive to each other so in otherword’s, a person doesn’t need to first own bitcoin before they can learn how withdrawal and self custody works; that’s just like saying a person doesn’t need to learn how to use a bank until after they receive their first salary, that’s ridiculous.

In this thread, we emphasize action and getting started rather than fucking around theorizing about bitcoin without taking action to buy bitcoin regularly, persistently, consistently, ongoingly and perhaps even aggressively.

Sure, knowledge can still be gained without taking actions, yet this thread is about emphasizing action, so it gets a bit old to hear guys ongoingly promoting studying and knowledge and various theoretical aspects of bitcoin without promoting the coupling of action into their ways of talking about bitcoin and bitcoin accumulation.

If at all, learning about all these things can still even help the person not to make mistakes whenever they eventually have a meaningful amount to withdraw; i’ll use myself as an example, i already knew how to make withdrawals even before i started to own any meaningful amount of bitcoin, but i didn’t just go around withdrawing anyhow i like when i eventually did own some tangible amount of sats.

Sure.  Some guys learn faster than others, and there may be reasons that a guy might learn before buying, especially if he is having troubles getting enough discretionary funds and/or figuring out the extent to which he has enough discretionary funds in order to get started buying bitcoin.. yet many times there are going to be needs and preferences to get started buying bitcoin, and learning how to withdraw or to set up a private wallet is not necessary to get started, even though surely there could be some guys who might start buying privately and in such a way that the would need to set up a private wallet from the start of their buying bitcoin.

The best thing is to just start accumulating immediately, provided your discretionary income is available. Selling of your bitcoin should be the last thing which you can learn later, when the right time comes.

Learning how to withdraw or move your coins to your own wallet does not translate to selling so don’t mix them up.

You are correct.  I personally think that both buying and selling is a good thing to know when starting to buy bitcoin, even if a guy has no intentions to sell.  Withdrawing implies a private wallet, so it is not necessarily the same as selling, especially if a guy is merely moving coins from a third-party wallet to his own private wallet.

Self custody is gonna teach a person how ownership works but you see selling!!!, it’s an entirely different decision.

Yes. They are different, and self-custody might not necessarily be required to get started, yet there might be some guys who might prefer to start out with self-custody and they might feel that they are ready, willing and able to study and to sufficiently understand how self-custody works.

However, if you are talking about transferring it to your noncustodial wallet. It's not necessary in the beginning because you have to buy first and as you are DCAing every week, you can learn that because you need to transfer it from the third party custody to your own self custody wallet when the amount is up to $500 or more.

Here you go again making arbitrary suggestions.

Where is it written that a person needs to wait for their sats to reach $500 before they can transfer it to their non custodial wallet?…

Probably @Merit.s could have had fleshed out his ideas better, and so there are no exact requirements in terms of when or how to manage UTXOs, yet historically we have found that there could be expenses in regards to guys who might have had many small transactions, such as less than $100 in each transaction, so when onchain transaction fees are high, then some of the management of the UTXOs could become quite expensive to manage.

In recent times, transaction fees have been more reasonable and low, yet we cannot necessarily count upon on chain transaction fees remaining low in the future.. .. so guys may well want to take precautions in the ways that they manage their UTXOs.

to the best of my knowledge, the point at which a person should consider something like this should depend on withdrawal fees,

Withdrawal fees are not the ONLY factor, even though frequently exchanges will have unreasonable withdrawal fees that would justify less frequent withdrawals, yet of course, withdrawal fees are not the only factor, like I mentioned, UTXO management and even future proofing some of the ways that UTXOs are kept in reasonably manageable sizes.  Of course, in the future, UTXOs can be consolidated or even split up, yet beyond just cost considerations, there also can be privacy and security ramifications in regards to UTXO management, too.
 

the person’s financial situation, custody risks and, most importantly, whether the person actually understands how to secure their wallet. Not based on what you think is a universal rule.

For someone barely registered on the forum for slightly longer than 5 months, you seem to want to show that you have bitcoin-related knowledge, yet it seems problematic when you seem to have several of your own lackenings of insight too @BluebloodCXVI.  I have been involved in the forum for about 12.5 years, yet there are still so many topics or even changes in bitcoin price (and bitcoin management) dynamics that can sometimes cause me to question my own knowledge and/or my own practices.

[edited out]

If the basic concepts are clear .  it is possible to start investing with small amounts.  and create opportunities for learning along the way. Real experience  teaches a different kind of lesson than books or theoretical knowledge. An investor can understand the fluctuations of the market, the weaknesses of his strategy by experiencing it in reality. If he can identify and correct mistakes, then those mistakes can become an important lesson for the future. Sometimes, some consequences of mistakes made due to ignorance of safety, risk, and the basic rules of investment cannot be easily corrected. Especially, one should not invest with money that may be needed for daily needs or emergency expenses. It is important to start with small amounts within one's capabilities and learn continuously along with investing. It is unnecessary to postpone investment for years while waiting to know everything, and it is also unwise to jump into investment quickly without knowing anything.

Why is it that we (especially yours truly) ongoingly emphasizes getting the fuck started buying bitcoin as soon as such bitcoin newbie knows that he has discretionary funds?

Yes.  It is ultimately his judgement regarding whether and how much to start with, yet at the same time, I doubt that you are in a position to proclaim what he needs to know or not, and it comes off as patronizing for you and for other guys to be ongoingly presuming that there is some specific knowledge that a guy needs to know before he can decide for himself to get started.

Anyone concerned about learning how to withdraw first before starting has other motives, because It sounds more like they are preparing to trade. If the goal is long term investing, I don’t see why not knowing how to withdraw should delay from starting.

And if you think folks need to basic knowledge before starting, you’re joking. So you really think a person will understand Bitcoin without making the first move? Bitcoin knowledge is a continuous process. You learn while accumulating and get to experience how the market works. You don't need to know everything before you start, even if it is small amount you can afford. What a person actually needs to do is calculate his discretionary income and work with what he can comfortably afford simple.

This is wrong conclusion because you are invariably saying that getting basic knowledge is not good for starters. If a new investor does not know how to withdraw and goes ahead to invest in Bitcoin, he will likely store the Bitcoin in the exchange where he purchased them or withdraw and risk sending the coins to a wrong wallet. Both of these are dangerous and can mess with the investmemt process. To successfully be know how to invest in Bitcoin, it is important to at least know how to buy and how to withdraw to be able to safely store the coins.

Knowing how to buy and sell is needed from the start, yet to start, it is not necessary to know how to withdraw.  I question why guys keep making such assertion, since it seems that many guys already know that it is not necessary to establish or figure out self-custody in order to get started, yet for some reason they come to the conclusion that there is a need to know withdrawing.. which makes absolutely no sense since the idea (practice) of withdrawing implies that a private wallet has already been set up.

[AYOBA]

Of course, it’s a wrong idea to depend on your investment as a way of surviving. You can see that it not advisable for anyone to invest if they don’t have any other way of getting money to solve other problems. There’s no way the person will survive on their investment because their focus will be on the market, any changes in the market will lead them into selling their bitcoin, because all they will hope for all the time is that price increases, and that will not happen. The price will go up and down.

But do you know that there’s so many peoples that only depend on the investments as a way of surviving in their life? But is just those kind of people have plan themselves well before starting the investment, because they will hardly touch their investments money they only have one way of income which is investment but you will be surprised how their surviving, and even you see them their always doing fine.

If an investor does not have a backup funds, then they will end up touching their investment if any unexpected thing occurs because they have no other backup funds to solve the problems. Having your discretionary income make your investment journey will be more easier and come with less stress than anyone who invests outside their discretionary budget.

Having backup funds is very important in investments except the investors that don’t plan to go a very long way in their investments journey, if any investors mistake put all their funds in the investments without having single amount as their backup fund is a big problem, because once emergency funds came they will not have any option than to touch their investments.

[Agbam]

Of course, it’s a wrong idea to depend on your investment as a way of surviving. You can see that it not advisable for anyone to invest if they don’t have any other way of getting money to solve other problems. There’s no way the person will survive on their investment because their focus will be on the market, any changes in the market will lead them into selling their bitcoin, because all they will hope for all the time is that price increases, and that will not happen. The price will go up and down.

But do you know that there’s so many peoples that only depend on the investments as a way of surviving in their life? But is just those kind of people have plan themselves well before starting the investment, because they will hardly touch their investments money they only have one way of income which is investment but you will be surprised how their surviving, and even you see them their always doing fine.

People who depend on their investments for survival didn’t just start today. In bitcoin it’s only those who have reached their over accumulation phase or close to their goal who can sufficiently depend on their investment as a means of survival or income.
If you have an investment be it bitcoin or any other and you’re busy using the profits for survival, that investment will never grow cos you’re busy eating your profits and growth.
So ensure you have discretionary income before investing.

If an investor does not have a backup funds, then they will end up touching their investment if any unexpected thing occurs because they have no other backup funds to solve the problems. Having your discretionary income make your investment journey will be more easier and come with less stress than anyone who invests outside their discretionary budget.

Having backup funds is very important in investments except the investors that don’t plan to go a very long way in their investments journey, if any investors mistake put all their funds in the investments without having single amount as their backup fund is a big problem, because once emergency funds came they will not have any option than to touch their investments.

This is the bad practice we keep hitting on everyday and on multiple but people will end up doing what they want to do sometimes good advice is not taken until a crisis strikes.

[Jostern]

You, @Yeesha, seem to be imposing your own values on what you believe bitcoin investing entails.

Each bitcoiner can choose for himself in regards to the extent to which he wants to study various details of bitcoin and/or various details of his cashflow management practices.

Of course, I personally put a lot of value in learning and organizing, yet those are still personal choices.

Your are absolutely correct, everyone have their Choices when it comes to bitcoin Investment, what they want to learn and how they want to start investing, and then particularly focusing on what is more sustainable to them for a long term holding investment, assuming that we have a certain amount of money available as our discretionary income, we can only be able to determine what we can achieve with investing in a bitcoin, how we can achieve that without making mistakes with accumulating bitcoins, which is why we have to learn this personal details on how we feel satisfied with our investments, possibly how to manage our cashflow, some individuals can have a cashflow management routine that would enable them stay consistent and focusing more on the investments aspect of bitcoin, and not focusing immediately on how they can get profit, instead it should be about proper planning on how to always approach the market on an accumulating basis.

[Abbatty]

I don't think saving money to invest in Bitcoin is good because the DCA strategy of investing in Bitcoin doesn't require this. The DCA strategy enables one to buy Bitcoin immediately when one has the opportunity to do so.

What you’re talking about is a waiting strategy, I think people who wait to gather money before they can buy bitcoin are people who are probably waiting for the dip, and they would also be watching the market as to when they will be comfortable to buy bitcoin, because I don’t really understand the reason why someone who have a true intention to buy bitcoin would be saving and keeping money, when they can buy bitcoin through the DCA with whatever amount of discretionary income they have available, consistency is very important and crucial when it comes to buying bitcoin, by waiting and saving money, that is how they will be missing out on tremendous opportunities to accumulate bitcoin assets in their portfolio.

Well, it never good to delay starting your investment, but then if you are this kind of person that prefer to buy when there is a Dip then make sure you do that with your discretionary income at least. This thread doesn’t encourage waiting for the Dip before starting your investment, sometimes waiting for the Dip will end up not investing at all. You can’t predict bitcoin so you can’t say when there will be a dip.

DCA have made investing so easy, so you can be investing with DCA and go into aggressive buying when there is a dip in the market. You can’t just waste times that you would have accumulate so much and be waiting for a Dip before you get started.

[Tongley]

I don't think saving money to invest in Bitcoin is good because the DCA strategy of investing in Bitcoin doesn't require this. The DCA strategy enables one to buy Bitcoin immediately when one has the opportunity to do so.

What you’re talking about is a waiting strategy, I think people who wait to gather money before they can buy bitcoin are people who are probably waiting for the dip, and they would also be watching the market as to when they will be comfortable to buy bitcoin, because I don’t really understand the reason why someone who have a true intention to buy bitcoin would be saving and keeping money, when they can buy bitcoin through the DCA with whatever amount of discretionary income they have available, consistency is very important and crucial when it comes to buying bitcoin, by waiting and saving money, that is how they will be missing out on tremendous opportunities to accumulate bitcoin assets in their portfolio.

Only in the case of buying through the DCA method, continuity is required, in the case of all other investment methods, continuity is not required. For example, the DIP method is to make a focused call or purchase on additional purchases or aggressive purchases when the market falls, continuity is not required in the lump sum investment method, but in the lump sum, a person buys a large amount of money at once. But in the case of using the DCA method, the continuity of a person is a tool for building his portfolio. If a person cannot continue to buy continuously in the DCA method, then he will definitely not be able to reach the goal of building a portfolio.

[JayJuanGee]

[edited out]

I think for a long term investor getting to know about withdrawal process is not very important before you can start accumulating. Since we can’t get all the knowledge of but at a time, it’s a gradual process and the most important thing is getting started and knowing how to secure your wallet, withdrawal can come in later unless the individual isn’t an investor but a trader who’s planning to sell soon.
Basic knowledge is important, people need to know what they’re getting into but it’s not a prerequisite for starting investment.

What is the supposed basic knowledge that you are suggesting to be necessary prior to getting started buying bitcoin?

[edited out]

Nothing last forever, so Bitcoin will not exist one day. But without believing in its future, I don’t think people would still be interested to invest in Bitcoin.

There are some strange things about your post @SmartCharpa.

It is almost like you don't even know what bitcoin is since you seem to be describing bitcoin as if it were some kind of a passing phenomena rather than a paradigm shifting asset class.

Bitcoin history has shown how far and strong it has come. We see how the market is reacting these days. Bitcoin price went above $80k yesterday, and now it is trading below that same level. We cannot compare Bitcoin with other shitcoins where people lose money, even with the effort of timing the market.
 

Why would it be relevant to be comparing bitcoin and shitcoins?  Also, why would we want to talk about trading in this investment thread, even though surely, from time to time, the off topic ideas of trading does end up coming up in this thread.

Profits are not guaranteed in Bitcoin. Some people may assume that since Bitcoin has less risk than other coins, perhaps profit is guaranteed. Real Investors are still holding because of the good impact Bitcoin has made in many years now. If Bitcoin is at this level right now, then imagine what it could be like in the next 5 to 10 years.

You sound like you are playing bitcoin like a trade  - or for its number go up technology - rather than having any meaningful abilities to really appreciate bitcoin and to communicate their views about bitcoin in ways that go beyond merely "number go up."

[edited out]

You must be aware of buying and selling along with basic knowledge about Bitcoin. Partial knowledge is not the mark of a smart investor. You need to gain complete knowledge about any subject and be patient to gain experience. After learning about Bitcoin initially, you should realize that this asset is one of the best digital assets for long-term investment.

Have you been reading this thread and/or participating in it in any kind of meaningful way?

Perhaps not, since you have not figured out that the amount of knowledge that any guys pursues or chooses to pursue is part of his own chosen discretion.  Sure, there tends to be a lot of value in learning about bitcoin and learning details about bitcoin, yet at the same time, just like guys can choose their level of aggressiveness, they also can choose the level of knowledge that they wish to pursue.

In other words, guys can choose to invest into bitcoin with high levels of knowledge about it or they could invest into bitcoin with hardly any knowledge about bitcoin.  Accordingly, levels of chosen knowledge pursuit is on a spectrum that can be high, low or some place in the middle, and each guy makes his choice in regards to where he wants to be.

Bitcoin can be risky for traders and traders who want to get profits in the short term. Even if the amount is small, stay regular in Bitcoin and accumulate regularly and be aware of the issue of sustainable withdrawal if necessary when the cycle is complete, but partial withdrawal is better and you should also continue accumulating Bitcoin.

For sure, we are not talking about trading in this thread, yet if any of us get to a point of having enough or more than enough bitcoin, we likely will figure out that we have options in regards to starting to employ price based and/or time based sales of our bitcoin that hopefully could be carried out in sustainable ways rather than in principle depletion kinds of ways.

Guys will have choices about how to manage their bitcoin holdings, and surely guys have more options when they have reached relatively high levels of bitcoin accumulation.

Many people here are very optimistic about the future of Bitcoin, I also and can ultimately benefit from investing with this belief. But even then, there should be a separate fund so that if the price of Bitcoin falls by 50-70% in the middle, someone may not have to sell Bitcoin at the worst possible time to meet emergency expenses, repay debt or meet any other important need.

So I support his saying “Invest as much as you can afford to lose”. However, newbies should not misunderstand this because losing does not mean that the money will actually be lost, but rather it is a way of conveying the risk of it.

I'm always of the opinion that people should know the risks involved in whatever investment endeavour they are going into and bitcoin isn't excluded because, let's face it, there is risk involved and even though bitcoin has never failed to impress over the years that it has been around there is still no guarantee that it won't fail tomorrow so anyone investing in bitcoin should do so while knowing that their success isn't guaranteed, invest from your discretionary income but more importantly invest with money you can afford to lose, I'm not saying you will lose it, I'm just saying that there is a possibility of it happening.

We don’t have to be over confident when it comes to investing in bitcoin, the most important thing is doing the right things when we are investing in bitcoin, investing in bitcoin is all about risk, minimization of that risk is something that we should have as a priority, which is why it’s important to understand bitcoin in the aspect of investing in long term investment, holding for a long term gives us that leverage to be able to minimize risk.

There is absolutely no guarantee of having profits jus like you have emphasized, but consistency and regular buying and accumulating bitcoin would give an opportunity of having profits.

You are right, even if we cannot be properly informed about the future, if we continue to save Bitcoin in the long term, there will definitely be a possibility of achieving the desired profit target.

So much focus on "profits" seems to be unnecessary, even though surely if guys are accumulating bitcoin for 4-10 years or longer, then the are certain levels of presumptions that the bitcoin holdings would be in profits, and so the longer that a person is accumulating bitcoin, then the more likely that his average cost per BTC would be lower than the current price and maybe even by multiples and/or magnitudes.

And, yeah, of course, being in profits is not guaranteed, yet surely the more that a guy's holdings are in profits, then the greater latitude that he likely ends up having in terms of how much value his total bitcoin holdings has versus how much value he put into bitcoin.

So many times historically, I have suggested that the level of profits of the bitcoin holdings is not as important as the amount of value that the holdings has, yet of course, the profits ends up serving as a kind of lever, so if a guy had put 2 years of his income into bitcoin, then there could be great value from the bitcoin holdings having had gone up 3x, 5x, 10x or even more - which end valuation would result in 6 years of income, 10 years of income, 20 years of income or more being reflected in the total value of the bitcoin holdings - and so the higher the end valuation, then likely the more options that guys have in terms of how to manage such value in terms of sustainable withdrawal or principle reduction withdrawal.

[edited out]

Investing in an asset based solely on others advice  market rumors  or temporary price surges—without understanding the asset itself—is not a prudent approach.
It is not essential to possess comprehensive knowledge before starting to invest . rather  understanding the necessary fundamentals is key.   more realistic approach involves being aware of one's own limitations while gradually building experience and knowledge over time.

Well.  Knowing about bitcoin as an asset is one thing that a guy may or may not choose to learn about, and also, like you seem to be implying, it is good for guys to understand his own income, expenses and then if he has discretionary funds, then he would consider the various ways that he might choose to use his discretionary funds to invest, save and/or discretionarily consume.

Investments and savings may well add up, and perhaps the investments would grow in value more than the savings, since presumptively, the savings is mostly being held in local fiat or maybe in some foreign fiat, such as the dollar.

Some guys have great compulsions in their desires to discretionarily consume, and other guys are o.k. in deferring some of the consumption (through investing and/or saving).

Investors must recognize that this is a high-risk and highly volatile digital asset.

Huh?  You have been registered here for nearly 2 years, and you are throwing around slogans like that?  Do you even know what you are saying? or are you merely equating high volatility with high risk?

Many of us likely recognize and appreciate that bitcoin having ongoing and persistent volatility is nearly inevitable, yet volatility and risk is not the same thing.  There are also measures that guys purposefully choose to take in order to attempt to account for the expected and/or inevitable volatility.,. which might involve ongoing buying of bitcoin or perhaps just buying on the dip.  I don't expect that trading would be a volatility risk mitigation factor until guys have reached overaccumulation status.

Decisions should be made by aligning the risks and potential of Bitcoin with one's financial goals and capacity. Attempting to make quick profits in the short term can be risky. If a new investor becomes overly excited by every price rise and panicked by every drop, they may easily make buying or selling decisions at the wrong time. When investing in Bitcoin, the quantity purchased is not the only factor that matters.

For sure, there can be both financial and psychological preparations that guys are going to be able to make in order to attempt to account for expected bitcoin's price volatility, and I really doubt that an investment perspective would include considerations of both buying and selling, since that sounds more like trading rather than investing.  We are in an investment thread, here, and of course, if our investment timeline is 4-10 years or longer, then if we are in our earliest of years of bitcoin accumulation, then it seems that ongoing bitcoin buying would be the expected practice, and there are not very many guys who would be able to reach overaccumulation status in less than one or two cycles, even though surely there are some guys who are able to front-load their investment by having high levels of discretionary income and/or guys who might be able to reallocate into bitcoin from other investments that they had prior to coming into bitcoin (or that they end up coming into value - such as inheritance or winning the lottery - in their early bitcoin accumulation years).  

[avp2306]

Decisions should be made by aligning the risks and potential of Bitcoin with one's financial goals and capacity. Attempting to make quick profits in the short term can be risky. If a new investor becomes overly excited by every price rise and panicked by every drop, they may easily make buying or selling decisions at the wrong time. When investing in Bitcoin, the quantity purchased is not the only factor that matters.

For sure, there can be both financial and psychological preparations that guys are going to be able to make in order to attempt to account for expected bitcoin's price volatility, and I really doubt that an investment perspective would include considerations of both buying and selling, since that sounds more like trading rather than investing.  We are in an investment thread, here, and of course, if our investment timeline is 4-10 years or longer, then if we are in our earliest of years of bitcoin accumulation, then it seems that ongoing bitcoin buying would be the expected practice, and there are not very many guys who would be able to reach overaccumulation status in less than one or two cycles, even though surely there are some guys who are able to front-load their investment by having high levels of discretionary income and/or guys who might be able to reallocate into bitcoin from other investments that they had prior to coming into bitcoin (or that they end up coming into value - such as inheritance or winning the lottery - in their early bitcoin accumulation years).  

Agree with your views towards that situation, because by going long term on Bitcoin people nee to prepare for possible quick changes on the market since market is so volatile. What indeed matter here is their steady commitment, especially when accumulating Bitcoins. If they are panning to invest for many years or decades, the best approach they can do is to build their position over time.

Because only few can able to do early front loads, especially if they receive inheritance or other situation which give them great advantages.

But for most of investors, it needs huge patience, also consistencies regarding on their accumulations and discipline dealing with  different situations happening in the market.

[ejikeme24]

Investors must recognize that this is a high-risk and highly volatile digital asset.

You're making Bitcoin investment look scary, what did you mean by high risk? Can you mention that investment you know that does not involve risk? I'm sure there's no such investment so why making Bitcoin investment look different in terms of risk ? For me I think the risk in bitcoin investment is just like that of other investment I can only say that Bitcoin investment is different that's in terms of volatility.

Decisions should be made by aligning the risks and potential of Bitcoin with one's financial goals and capacity. Attempting to make quick profits in the short term can be risky.

You're  making too much emphasis on this risk aspect, are you sure if you can invest in Bitcoin?  If you consider the risk  in bitcoin investment you may end up becoming no coiner so I would advice you pay less attention to the risk involve and start investing in bitcoin before it gets late.

[Joeboy]

~snip~

Agree with your views towards that situation, because by going long term on Bitcoin people nee to prepare for possible quick changes on the market since market is so volatile. What indeed matter here is their steady commitment, especially when accumulating Bitcoins. If they are panning to invest for many years or decades, the best approach they can do is to build their position over time.

Because only few can able to do early front loads, especially if they receive inheritance or other situation which give them great advantages.

But for most of investors, it needs huge patience, also consistencies regarding on their accumulations and discipline dealing with  different situations happening in the market.

A cycle is about 4 yrs and two cycles equals to roughly about 8yrs, and so it would rather be very unrealistic for majority of low income folks to assume that they could achieve over-accumulation within the 4 -8 yrs duration... Though some folks could be able to achieve this, majorly those with high discretionary income gotten though either salary, businesses, inheritance, savings and  whatnot... But for an average individual, the possibility of that happening isn't all that high..And if that is the reality of anyone, the best approach would be to invest consistently and continuously based in their financial situation-- If it is only $25 that one can afford to invest on a weekly basis, then one should very well continue in that manner, instead of trying to front load or copy others strategy that can place the individual under a lot of pressure...Gradually and overtime, you will continue building your portfolio..

[JayJuanGee]

[edited out]

I'm saying that people shouldn't think that being able to save up to 6 months worth of emergency fund is easy, it will take time, rather than shot that high you can go for 3 months and then still make sure to keep your reserve fund in place.
Unless you are saying that 3 months worth of emergency fund isn't enough for an investor and they should save more, that is also the investor's choice but it's not just about talking about saving uo to 6 months but rather about being able to actually pull it off.

Guys have to figure out their focus, yet if they are seriously accumulating bitcoin, it seems a bit of overkill to believe that it is necessary to have much more than 3 months of back up funds, except in cases in which income and/or expenses are quite uncertain and likely to cause needs to tap into such back up funds.

If an uncertain income ends up leading to an uncertain discretionary then they wouldn't even be able to afford an emergency fund in the first place.
I just feel like it someone has the discretionary income and want to save up that much emergency fund then it's their choice but there is nothing mandating anyone to save up to 6 months worth of emergency fund, 3 months will serve and if they actually lose their source of income the they can move to reduce their expenses and by doing that they can then extend their 3 months worth of emergency fund to even past that 3 months as well.
Also if someone has a rough idea that they might need more emergency fund in the near future then they can also save up more, they should just make sure to not ignore their investment in the process.

An emergency fund is certainly important. But the real question is not whether an emergency fund should be 3 months or 6 months to start with. There is no mandatory requirement to have an emergency fund at the beginning.

Three to 6 months is way too large even for someone who had been investing for a while.

And, yes, there is a need to have at least some basic level of back up funds when starting buying bitcoin.. perhaps at least equal to the amount bought or maybe even better to have at least 1 week of expenses to be assured that investing into bitcoin is not going beyond discretionary funds.

In reality, everyone's finances are not the same.

Sure.  But there are some basic principles that might both facilitate the ongoing buying (and building up of bitcoin) and making sure that there are sufficient back up funds so that basic expenses can continue to be covered, even during times that the income might go down and/or the basic expenses might go up.

For some, it may be easy to create a 6-month emergency fund.

That is retarded, and it seems like way too much cash to be holding onto, unless the bitcoin stash size were to already be BIG.

For others, it may take a year or more to create a 3-month emergency fund.

For folks who are starting out with little to no back up funds, and if they are ONLY setting aside money from the regular income, then yeah, it could take well over a year to build up 3 months worth of expenses, perhaps even 2 years.

Think about a person who might have an income of $1k per month, and then if his basic expenses are $800 per month, then that might well mean that he is investing around $67 per month, saving $67 per month and discretionarily consuming $67 per month.

Which after two years he would have had invested $1,608, saved $1,608 and discretionarily consumed $1,608.

And $1,608 happens to ONLY be two months of the size of his basic expenses.

Therefore, if someone does not have an emergency fund at the beginning of investing, it is not always realistic to give advice like "he should have 3 months of emergency funds at the beginning instead of 6 months". Rather, if he really has discretionary income, he can start investing and create an emergency fund at the same time. In this, he does not have to wait until he creates an emergency fund.

Yep.  It is true that is is problematic if guys are presuming that there is meaningful value in either building the back up funds first or to disproportionately emphasize the building and/or maintaining of back up funds.

I also find it can be problematic if someone just hears about bitcoin and decides to invest in bitcoin, yet if they have more than 3 months of back up funds already established without having any bitcoin at all, they may well need to reallocate some portion of their back up funds, perhaps even half of it, towards their bitcoin investment, even though they may also find some value in pacing out their allocating into bitcoin, so there could be various ways to consider how aggressive that they might choose to be in reallocating some of their funds from cash or from other investments into bitcoin.

~~

What you are saying is vague @Princess Leah.
It seems to me that the punchline continues to be that whether and how much knowledge is needed remains discretionary, meaning that each person decides and there is no reason to impose what knowledge that you believe that he needs, since there should be some presumption that each newbie should be able to figure out these matters for himself, and if such newbies figures that he needs to know more than having discretionary funds and knowing where to source bitcoin before getting started, then he can decide if he needs to seek further knowledge or not.

How about those who have no idea of what do to own Bitcoin, i mean how to buy and where to buy or how to store the coin, don't you think they'll need to have knowledge about that? 

Yes.  There is a need to know whether they have discretionary funds and from where they are going to buy their bitcoin.   How they store their bitcoin may well relate to how they first start to buy bitcoin and how much they choose to buy, so if they start on an exchange, then they may well choose to store their initial purchase on the exchange.

If they do not trust storing on the exchange, then yeah, they might need to establish (and learn about) their own private wallet.

In your initial post, you were placing a lot of emphasis on various kinds of knowledge that you believe that beginner bitcoiner need to have, which it seems to me that you were both overly stating the case, but also leaving impressions that there are some vague and misterious things that bitcoin newbies need to learn about before they can get started buying bitcoin, which truly is not the case and it is even misleading to be making those kinds of strong suggestions relating to supposed knowledge that bitcoin newbies need, when it is both not true and it is also something that a newbie can consider, including the extent to which the bitcoin newbie might choose to adjust his bitcoin buying position down in the event that he might believe that he needs to learn more about certain aspects of bitcoin and/or about his cashflow management systems/practices. 

I feel that such people can have their discreationary income intact but don't know what to do with it since where to buy or how to buy isn't known to the person.

Of course, a person has to know from where they are going to initially source their coins, so in that sense, there can be regional variability and even individuals may or may not be comfortable with the first bitcoin buying options that they have, so it is up to them if they might want to seek out some other ways of initially sourcing their bitcoin.

In your earlier post, you were way more vague about what you meant about knowledge and you were not focusing on mere questions of where and/or how bitcoin newbies might consider sourcing their coins.

That's why i empathized about having knowledge about those basic stuffs,

You were much more vague, and you also made it seem to be some kind of a deal breaker that the newbie needed to reach a certain knowledge level before he would be in a position to start buying bitcoin.

Do I need to quote you again?

[edited out]

Anyone who thinks knowledge is irrelevant should be ready to fail in the investment cause putting money into what someone doesn't know about is same thing as embracing loss/failure. The knowledge of Bitcoin is very very important for anyone who wish to invest in it but people shouldn't spend too long getting knowledge about it.

 That's because they can start investing while in the process of learning, the basic of Bitcoin investment is enough for anyone to get started so knowledge about it is not an excuse. Well some people are procrastinators, they'll always look for excuses that would prevent them from doing important things.

I personally understand that your  first couple of assertions about the need for knowledge are quite strong assertions, yet at the same time vague in regards to what kind of knowledge you are strongly proclaiming to be needed.

anyways thanks for your correction sir, it’s good to have you back on this thread, i believe that lots of folks here also missed getting more knowledge from you.

Thanks.. Yes.  I had a bit of a break, so I am still catching up on some of my regular threads.

Anyone that is this ignorant, don't have a common sense because common sense will be enough for such persons to do a simple Google research on how to buy and where to buy it.
They rest of it like the best place to hold your Bitcoin is secondary, and he can learn that along the way in his accumulation journey, not when he is about to start, because trying to figure that out may delay him or her, if such person is not a fast learner.

i do not agree with you that anyone who does not know how to buy and where to buy does not have a common sense. common does not teach one how to buy bitcoin and where to buy rather common sense only make one to be very conscious not to make mistake anyhow. you can not know how to buy bitcoin and where to buy without someone guiding you or giving you the knowledge and steps you need to do it, when i started bitcoin journey i do not know how to do any of these simply because i was not familiar with it but that does not mean i do not have a common sense then.

You are largely correct SDS11 in that common sense does not give you specific kinds of knowledge but instead helps you to figure out ways to act with decently good judgment and not to do a bunch of dumb shit that would not be appropriate for their situation.  So for example if a person is brand new to bitcoin, and maybe they overheard someone talking about it or maybe they saw a program on the television or some other way that they heard about it, but then they wanted to look into it. 

Sure, maybe they might have a friend that they could ask about it, or maybe they have to engage in other kinds of research in regards to what kinds of exchanges are available in their geographical area.  Some bitcoin newbies might find their answer and figure out how to buy bitcoin easily and quickly, but then others might become confused by the information that they find, which might cause them delays in trying to decide whether and how to start buying bitcoin.

Your assumption of having someone explain is not necessarily the ONLY way that people find out about ways that they might consider starting to buy bitcoin.

Get the fuck out of here .
Bitcoin is not guaranteed to be successful, even if guys do everything right.

A lot of times when we discuss strategies to accumulate bitcoin, then to maintain a bitcoin portfolio and then perhaps later how to manage liquidations whether that is carried out through some sustainable withdrawal practices or the depletion of the principle, we are trying to figure out better practices that might be mostly tailored to the individual circumstances, yet there also may well end up being quite a bit of variance in their options, and bitcoiners are not even guaranteed to profit or even to do better than they might have done by investing their time, energy and value in other directions.

Surely, at the same time, historically bitcoin has been quite sympathetic towards guys who had errored on the side of bitcoin accumulation and holding, so there could be some guys who might regret their level of aggressiveness, yet if 4-10 years or longer pass, then there is no abilities to go back and make up for past mistakes - so  in that regard, we may well be trying to figure out how to establish the better of current practices, even though historical bitcoin price performance does not guarantee future bitcoin price performance.

I love the way you often say “Get the Fuck out of here”…. Hahaha 🤣 reading it, it doesn’t sound rude to me but funny, that’s by the way.

Yes bitcoin is not 100% guaranteed to do well even in the long term but it has a stronger probability of doing well than not. As enthusiasts it’s good to have confidence and trust in Bitcoin but not overconfidence to the point where you begin to use your money meant for basic expenses to invest, I’ve heard or rather read where some members here say “Bitcoin is too sure to be limited to just discretionary money”. These people I assume are not just talking about but are also making this wrong decisions with their investments.

I like to speculate that there is a fairly strong presumption that bitcoin's price trajectory into the future is tending to be sufficiently upward, so that in the longer term, bitcoin is likely to perform as good if not better than quite a few other assets, yet at the same time, there is neither guarantee that bitcoin price trajectory is going to be UP nor that bitcoin's price trajectory is going to be higher than other places that money could have had been invested.

If we look at bitcoin over the past 14-ish years, we can see that generally speaking, guys who had largely errored on the side of ongoingly buying bitcoin, even within reasonable and conservative parameters, they have tended to do quite well with their investment into bitcoin as long as they did not end up somehow losing the bitcoin through an exchange, trying to trade and/or otherwise failing to take sufficient bitcoin security practices.

Of course there are guys who end up taking too many chances by investing too heavily based on their bullish perceptions of bitcoin, and perhaps not even maintaining sufficient back up funds and taking too many chances that might end up contributing to a winner investment like bitcoin either turning into a loser or not winning as much as it could have had won if they had taken a more conservative approach to their bitcoin stacking.

[Primark]

]

I'm always of the opinion that people should know the risks involved in whatever investment endeavour they are going into and bitcoin isn't excluded because, let's face it, there is risk involved and even though bitcoin has never failed to impress over the years that it has been around there is still no guarantee that it won't fail tomorrow so anyone investing in bitcoin should do so while knowing that their success isn't guaranteed, invest from your discretionary income but more importantly invest with money you can afford to lose, I'm not saying you will lose it, I'm just saying that there is a possibility of it happening.

And when say invest only with the “money you can afford to lose”  It make Bitcoin investment sound more like gambling.  And for someone investing for the long term, the best approach is to use discretionary income, meaning money that is left after taking care of important needs. Bitcoin can fall heavily, so the person should understand that and be ready to hold through those periods. The person should understand the risk and be ready to hold through those periods without being forced to sell.

The phrase "invest what you can afford to lose" is not a command, but rather a way for investors to understand their limits and invest. It does not mean that you want to lose your money. Rather, it means that people should understand that they should invest only as much as they can afford to lose without disrupting their lifestyle. I don't think that sounds like gambling. On the contrary, gamblers have no limits, they bet everything.

You later said that you should invest with discretionary income, which I certainly agree with. But you made discretionary income and "what you can afford to lose" alternatives, as if you accept one and you have to give up the other. But they are not rivals, but rather the same thing.

A small example, discretionary income is a big bag, and "what you can afford to lose" is a small part of it.

[JayJuanGee]

[edited out]

This is why it's  important to gain basic knowledge  before you start buying and  why you should only invest using your discretionary income, but I don't  think an investor will fully understand how Bitcoin operate without owning a portion of it. Because when you own it, it gives you practical knowledge and reasons to learn more about it.

What is this "basic knowledge" that you believe guys have to have before starting to buy bitcoin?

You sound vague to me, and like you are making shit up.

And when say invest only with the “money you can afford to lose”  It make Bitcoin investment sound more like gambling. 

Well, it is not like gambling, and the proper expression is to not invest any more than you can afford to lose.

There is no need to change the expression to some other nonsense that does not even fit with what the proper expression is.

And for someone investing for the long term, the best approach is to use discretionary income, meaning money that is left after taking care of important needs.

Money that you can afford to lose is a portion of discretionary income.  Money that you can afford to lose is not all of discretionary income.

Bitcoin can fall heavily, so the person should understand that and be ready to hold through those periods.

Hold or keep buying.

I would think that beginners to bitcoin would still be in their early accumujlation phase, sothey should already have put systems into place in whihc they are ongoingly buying, whether weekly or otherwise.

I am not a BIG fan of buying on the dip, since it can be difficult to know what is a dip and then when it will stop dipping, yet surely the more bitcoin that a person has accumulated, then it could be the case that such guy who had been ongoingly buying bitcoin converts from ongoing and persistent buying of bitcoin and then starts to modify the way that he buys so that he is buying bitcoin on the dips rather than ongoingly buying bitcoin all the time, such as weekly.

The person should understand the risk and be ready to hold through those periods without being forced to sell.

When you talk about "risk," are you talking about BTC price volatility or something else?  If a person is a newbie to bitcoin or he is ongoingly buying bitcoin, then he likely would welcome BTC price dips since he is able to buy more bitcoin for the same amount of dollars (fiat).

[alankasman]

When you talk about "risk," are you talking about BTC price volatility or something else?  If a person is a newbie to bitcoin or he is ongoingly buying bitcoin, then he likely would welcome BTC price dips since he is able to buy more bitcoin for the same amount of dollars (fiat).

This is certainly true, as they will gain more when they buy at a price drop. This is often done by beginners, taking advantage of the price drop to maximize their return on value.

However, it's difficult to predict when a price drop will occur, especially as we know that price predictions are always subject to deviation. This means there's no accurate price prediction. For us, when the market is declining, the right move is to buy to capitalize on the value we have or have accumulated. We believe this is the right time to welcome a price drop.

[DubemIfedigbo001]

Separately building funds before starting Bitcoin investment is totally not reasonable. It is a different thing when ordinarily these would be Bitcoiner already has this fiat before thinking of Bitcoin, if not, just call it bullshit, bullshit that waiting for the dip is even far better than. if the intention to invest in Bitcoin is already existing then why should a newbie wait until they have all the money before starting and how much would be enough to start with?

Both of them can still be classified as delaying your investment journey and none is good. It is better to start immediately you have spare cash to buy and hold. Building cash which will still depreciate and loose value is not a smart thing to do, even if it's emergency funds, it can still be built alongside your active buying and holding as there is no point building emergency funds for a non-existent bitcoin portfolio.

Waiting is delay, waiting is gradually missing out. As long as you've discretionary funds, there is no need to wait since you're good to start. New investors should prioritize starting right away because the earlier you started accumulating and holding bitcoin, the better.

[Barikui1]

Snip

. This is often done by beginners, taking advantage of the price drop to maximize their return on value.

No, it's not just beginners that wait for the dip before buying, it can be done but anyone, mostly those that think that they can outsmart the market, which is a wrong way to go about their Bitcoin accumulation.

However, it's difficult to predict when a price drop will occur, especially as we know that price predictions are always subject to deviation. This means there's no accurate price prediction. For us, when the market is declining, the right move is to buy to capitalize on the value we have or have accumulated. We believe this is the right time to welcome a price drop.

If you are truly a long term Bitcoin investment, then you shouldn't be that worried at the price, but rather buying and accumulating once your discretionary income is available is the logical thing to do because this price you think is too high now, may be a bargain in few years time from now, so what's the point waiting and wasting time when we should be using this opportunity to buy and accumulate as much as we can now that Bitcoin is still pretty young.

[samadam007]

When you talk about "risk," are you talking about BTC price volatility or something else?  If a person is a newbie to bitcoin or he is ongoingly buying bitcoin, then he likely would welcome BTC price dips since he is able to buy more bitcoin for the same amount of dollars (fiat).

This is certainly true, as they will gain more when they buy at a price drop. This is often done by beginners, taking advantage of the price drop to maximize their return on value.

However, it's difficult to predict when a price drop will occur, especially as we know that price predictions are always subject to deviation. This means there's no accurate price prediction. For us, when the market is declining, the right move is to buy to capitalize on the value we have or have accumulated. We believe this is the right time to welcome a price drop.

You’re shifting to a different angle entirely. The point is that a beginner already accumulating Bitcoin naturally gets more BTC with same amount if the price drops…
Not trying to predict the right dip or wait for the price to fall before buying. It can easily make the discussion about dip buying. Folks main focus should be consistent long term accumulation with money they can comfortably afford.

[Agathamay]

When you talk about "risk," are you talking about BTC price volatility or something else?  If a person is a newbie to bitcoin or he is ongoingly buying bitcoin, then he likely would welcome BTC price dips since he is able to buy more bitcoin for the same amount of dollars (fiat).

This is certainly true, as they will gain more when they buy at a price drop. This is often done by beginners, taking advantage of the price drop to maximize their return on value.

However, it's difficult to predict when a price drop will occur, especially as we know that price predictions are always subject to deviation. This means there's no accurate price prediction. For us, when the market is declining, the right move is to buy to capitalize on the value we have or have accumulated. We believe this is the right time to welcome a price drop.

On the contrary, I don't think this is done mostly by newbies because I believe newbies would be too scared to stick to the process in times of dip as most of them would rather panic sell than trying ti buy more.

No need to want to start predicting when the price would go down that's why the DCA technique have always been preferably advised to be used as this technique allows you to continually buy the coin without having to pay attention to market conditions and i agree with JJ that the more one continually buys especially during the dip, the more they begin appreciating the importance of the dip as you would be able to buy more bitcoin fir same amount of fiat.