Russian Invasion of Ukraine[In Progress]

[paxmao]

Some of the horrific video clips I've seen from this war really illustrates how war has changed.  Seeing tanks runover cars on the freeway like they're playing grand theft auto, or seeing cyclists having bombs dropped on their heads are things that are just unexpected to me and even unfathomable.  I think most people just want to go about their daily lives without fear of some government squabble murdering them while trying to get a workout in, or trying to make it to work.  It's pretty crazy that with all of the advancement of our civilization, war has turned even less personal and the loss of life seems almost expected.  Personally, I would prefer the days of swinging swords to suddenly having your entire family murdered in a second as a jet flies by...  If you haven't seen some of the horrific clips out there from this war, do yourself a favor and don't search for them.  It's absolutely heartbreaking.

War, war is hell. Always was, always will be. That has not changed, if anything it became more humane due to public outcries. There is a lot of misinformation going around, which is understandable when literal lives are at stake, but I have no reason to doubt your sincerity, so giving the benefit of the doubt, your naiveness is frankly, shocking and perhaps telling of your overall selective world view? Unless you're really young, have you considered why you're just finding out that there are atrocities in every "conflict" and all sides? Why haven't you seen horrific video clips from previous conflicts, surely theres abundance of them on the internet? Perhaps they were less brutal? Or there were less civilian casualties? Or perhaps some other reason?
...
Sorry to burst your bubble, but your ignorance to suffering is really telling about you/your upbringing. And no, powerful don't bear the consequences, you can even sanction ICC if you have enough power, that's why everyone wants more power. "US sanctions International Criminal Court officials" https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/02/politics/us-icc-sanctions/index.html

On this I have to agree and add that Europe has risen its voice and started acting on the economic front only when Putin threatened directly everything that is dear to the EU and the US - democracies (even if imperfect), their ability to strengthen their relations to other countries if they wish to do so and to be free to enter into the most beneficial agreements they can choose within their possibilities.

In other words, Ukraine does not have less rights to reach agreements with others than Putin or than any other country. Forcing them into neutrality, hindering their rights to associate or extend their diplomacy is something that Western Europe just cannot accept. Putin setting terms on what the NATO can do or not do in terms of accepting members is not acceptable. Putin giving himself the Tzardom or all that surrounds him because "he would not feel safe otherwise" feels too much like the old USSR regime.

And do not get me wrong, I am no happier about the US intervening in Latin America than I am with Putin.

[1715326042]

1715326042

[1715326042]

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[paxmao]

...

Certainly, nobody should blame the Russian people for this. When ancient Romans invaded some innocent place, could you blame the Roman's slaves for making the soldiers' weapons? To a greater or lesser degree, it's the same sort of thing for every government, including the US. If you are compelled by fate to be a citizen of some country, compelled by force to pay taxes to support your country, etc., then you bear no responsibility for what you are compelled to do, and you do not have a responsibility to put yourself at personal risk to make your country less evil. In my view, even "perfect" democracy would not change this. The average Russian bears zero responsibility for this invasion, just as I disclaim any responsibility whatsoever for the various atrocities committed by the US in the middle east and elsewhere.

While I agree that all Russians cannot be blamed for Putin's decisions, as they mostly do not get either a say on it or any means of opposing these without an immense risk to their lives and livelihoods, as a citizen of a Democracy, I do feel I am much more responsible for what my country does than people on authoritarian regimes are. I do feel I need to do something if my government does not have at least a morally acceptable conduct.

In other words, when you live in a Democracy (imperfect or not), you do not get to blame others - such is the burden of freedom and so heavy that many choose to discharge it and accept dictators.

[DaRude]

Some of the horrific video clips I've seen from this war really illustrates how war has changed.  Seeing tanks runover cars on the freeway like they're playing grand theft auto, or seeing cyclists having bombs dropped on their heads are things that are just unexpected to me and even unfathomable.  I think most people just want to go about their daily lives without fear of some government squabble murdering them while trying to get a workout in, or trying to make it to work.  It's pretty crazy that with all of the advancement of our civilization, war has turned even less personal and the loss of life seems almost expected.  Personally, I would prefer the days of swinging swords to suddenly having your entire family murdered in a second as a jet flies by...  If you haven't seen some of the horrific clips out there from this war, do yourself a favor and don't search for them.  It's absolutely heartbreaking.

War, war is hell. Always was, always will be. That has not changed, if anything it became more humane due to public outcries. There is a lot of misinformation going around, which is understandable when literal lives are at stake, but I have no reason to doubt your sincerity, so giving the benefit of the doubt, your naiveness is frankly, shocking and perhaps telling of your overall selective world view? Unless you're really young, have you considered why you're just finding out that there are atrocities in every "conflict" and all sides? Why haven't you seen horrific video clips from previous conflicts, surely theres abundance of them on the internet? Perhaps they were less brutal? Or there were less civilian casualties? Or perhaps some other reason?
...
Sorry to burst your bubble, but your ignorance to suffering is really telling about you/your upbringing. And no, powerful don't bear the consequences, you can even sanction ICC if you have enough power, that's why everyone wants more power. "US sanctions International Criminal Court officials" https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/02/politics/us-icc-sanctions/index.html

On this I have to agree and add that Europe has risen its voice and started acting on the economic front only when Putin threatened directly everything that is dear to the EU and the US - democracies (even if imperfect), their ability to strengthen their relations to other countries if they wish to do so and to be free to enter into the most beneficial agreements they can choose within their possibilities.

In other words, Ukraine does not have less rights to reach agreements with others than Putin or than any other country. Forcing them into neutrality, hindering their rights to associate or extend their diplomacy is something that Western Europe just cannot accept. Putin setting terms on what the NATO can do or not do in terms of accepting members is not acceptable. Putin giving himself the Tzardom or all that surrounds him because "he would not feel safe otherwise" feels too much like the old USSR regime.

And do not get me wrong, I am no happier about the US intervening in Latin America than I am with Putin.

We've been through this before in the 60s. Russia tries to bring nukes to US borders. US blockades Cuba, disregarding its rights as a sovereign nation as well as all international laws. Logic was that nuclear weapons close to US borders is unacceptable risk and is an existential threat to the country, which overrules everything else.  World got together, cooler heads prevailed, and world agreed that sneaky Russians tried to sneak nukes too close to US borders, nuke nations have right to feel threatened, and its better that nuke states each stay away from each other in their own rooms. MAD was born. Now, fast forwards few decades. Concept of "existential thread" is being challenged once again, nukes are getting brought to a border but this time with a side of more democracy, favorable trade agreements, monetary policy, and cookies. If this is successful, rinse repeat, offer great trading terms with a side of nukes to Taiwan (offer Taiwan to join NATO), before China decides to bring great monitory policy, fortune cookies with a side of nukes to Cuba again (offer Cuba to join ChinaWarsawPact).

[suchmoon]

nukes are getting brought to a border but this time with a side of more democracy, favorable trade agreements, monetary policy, and cookies

What are you on about... there are no nukes to the east of the "old" NATO in Europe... other than Russian nukes in Kaliningrad, in Russia proper, and now apparently soon in Belarus. None of the new NATO members are getting nukes.

[DaRude]

nukes are getting brought to a border but this time with a side of more democracy, favorable trade agreements, monetary policy, and cookies

What are you on about... there are no nukes to the east of the "old" NATO in Europe... other than Russian nukes in Kaliningrad, in Russia proper, and now apparently soon in Belarus. None of the new NATO members are getting nukes.

So the solution is to pack the nukes inside a package where its unilaterally optional to one side, after mutual collective defense is established? Now that makes all the difference and not sneaky at all. Ok, so China offering Cuba a pact where Cuba is free to enter into the most beneficial agreements they can choose within their possibilities, and China is obligated to declare war on anyone attacking or blockading Cuba (with an option for China to later bring in nukes to Cuba anytime they wish after that pact is  accepted) Now you'd be silly not to take up that great offer!

[suchmoon]

So the solution is to pack the nukes inside a package where its unilaterally optional to one side, after mutual collective defense is established? Now that makes all the difference and not sneaky at all.

Still not making any sense. Sneaky about what? That some countries want to share defensive capabilities? Unlike e.g. Russia and Belarus? That some of those countries don't want to trust Russia and rather turn westward? I wonder why.

Ok, so China offering Cuba a pact where Cuba is free to enter into the most beneficial agreements they can choose within their possibilities, and China is obligated to declare war on anyone attacking or blockading Cuba (with an option for China to later bring in nukes to Cuba anytime they want after that pact is  accepted) Now you'd be silly not to take up that great offer!

Actually that was the status quo for decades before the Soviet Union collapsed. So your point is still not quite clear here.

[shahzadafzal]

[Gyfts]

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/us-officials-fear-putins-government-may-arrest-americans-russia-rcna18088

Some days ago, the U.S. issued to their citizens a message to get out of Russia. Other countries might have done the same. U.S. officials questioning whether Putin is planning on jailing private U.S. citizens in order to use as leverage. Would Putin be so foolish as to directly force U.S. involvement by holding American citizens hostage? Perhaps he is so desperate, seeing his army is failing to capture a country so ill-equipped for war.

[DaRude]

So the solution is to pack the nukes inside a package where its unilaterally optional to one side, after mutual collective defense is established? Now that makes all the difference and not sneaky at all.

Still not making any sense. Sneaky about what? That some countries want to share defensive capabilities? Unlike e.g. Russia and Belarus? That some of those countries don't want to trust Russia and rather turn westward? I wonder why.

Ok, so China offering Cuba a pact where Cuba is free to enter into the most beneficial agreements they can choose within their possibilities, and China is obligated to declare war on anyone attacking or blockading Cuba (with an option for China to later bring in nukes to Cuba anytime they want after that pact is  accepted) Now you'd be silly not to take up that great offer!

Actually that was the status quo for decades before the Soviet Union collapsed. So your point is still not quite clear here.

Not sure how much clearer i can be. US will never allow Cuba to enter into any defensive pacts (regardless of how lawful/democratic/liberating/profitable... it will be for Cuba) that would allow other countries to bring nukes into Cuba. China will never allow Taiwan to enter into any pact (regardless of how lawful/democratic/liberating/profitable... it will be for Taiwan) that will allow 3rd country to bring nukes into Taiwan. Now you can argue whether it is right/ethical/lawful etc... but it'd be silly to argue the fact itself.

[PrimeNumber7]

You are suffering, scaring to death for the decisions made by your politicians and 144.1 million Russians are going to suffer for their politicians too. What harm these 144.1 million people did that they will face the consequences of the sanctions coming from all over the world?

Imagine just because you are a Russian - your assets will be seized if they are in abroad, you can not fly, you can not participate in any financial deal with foreign county, you can not see your relatives, they can not come to you. Imagine you are living in abroad and just because your are a Russian, you will lose job, you can not conduct any business, your assets will be seized, you are losing your identity. Imagine you hated this war as much Ukrainian people did and you never wanted your Ukrainian brothers, sisters, cousins to be killed but you are facing all these consequences.

The purpose of the sanctions is to cripple the Russian economy, so Russia does not have the ability to continue its war effort. Wars are not won with weapons that each side had at the beginning of the war, they are won with weapons produced during the war. So if Russia is unable to continue to produce tanks, planes, and bombs, they will be unable to continue to fight the war.

Another purpose of the sanctions is to incentivize the people of Russia to overthrow/change their government. Russia is no democracy, and there are risks to speaking out/protesting, however, if these types of things happen in large enough numbers, the Russian government will be unable to suppress the protests.

Blow up all gas pipelines from Russia.  Cut them off.

The problem I suppose is that sanctions etc need to go far enough, but not too far. If Putin is put in the situation where he has nothing left to lose then he becomes even more dangerous - difficult as that is to believe. It's not great if he gets pushed into a corner where all he has left is the nuclear weapons.

The gas pipelines from Russia provides Russia with money to finance its war in Ukraine. Russia's only real trading partner left is China, but China is not going to give away goods for free. If Russia cannot sell its gas, the Russian government will stop having the ability to buy things. Russia receives approximately 40% of its receipts from sales of gas.

I think it'd be a great idea for the West to welcome Russian immigrants/refugees in with open arms. Russia already has a very low birth rate, so depleting their population even more would essentially be an additional type of economic warfare, and helping ordinary people escape the sanctions would make them a little less cruel.

I don't think this is a good solution, just as it is a bad solution to violent places in Central America.

When people being oppressed can simply leave the control of an oppressive/bad government, there is less pressure on other governments to pursue change because the people being oppressed can simply seek refuge. This also gives the people of these bad governments less of an incentive to try to change their government. Unhappy citizens will try to leave instead of changing their government.

Russia is no democracy, and when citizens dissent in smallish numbers they will be punished. However, if enough of Russia's population resists its government, the government will collapse. Allowing people to immigrate from Russia will reduce the incentive for people to resist their government. It is also something that will take a very long time to have a meaningful impact.

[paxmao]

So the solution is to pack the nukes inside a package where its unilaterally optional to one side, after mutual collective defense is established? Now that makes all the difference and not sneaky at all.

Still not making any sense. Sneaky about what? That some countries want to share defensive capabilities? Unlike e.g. Russia and Belarus? That some of those countries don't want to trust Russia and rather turn westward? I wonder why.

Ok, so China offering Cuba a pact where Cuba is free to enter into the most beneficial agreements they can choose within their possibilities, and China is obligated to declare war on anyone attacking or blockading Cuba (with an option for China to later bring in nukes to Cuba anytime they want after that pact is  accepted) Now you'd be silly not to take up that great offer!

Actually that was the status quo for decades before the Soviet Union collapsed. So your point is still not quite clear here.

Not sure how much clearer i can be. US will never allow Cuba to enter into any defensive pacts (regardless of how lawful/democratic/liberating/profitable... it will be for Cuba) that would allow other countries to bring nukes into Cuba. China will never allow Taiwan to enter into any pact (regardless of how lawful/democratic/liberating/profitable... it will be for Taiwan) that will allow 3rd country to bring nukes into Taiwan. Now you can argue whether it is right/ethical/lawful etc... but it'd be silly to argue the fact itself.

You are assuming that NATO would require Ukraine to have nukes. That is not the case with many other countries even those close to Russia, so there is no real argument.

[LTU_btc]

In last day Russian attacks end with much more deaths of civilians. They shooting at houses and apartments of people, hospitals, kindergartens, Kharkiv city municipality and Kyiv TV tower. They are still say that Russia attack only military objects, but it's rude lie. If they're doing such things, seems that they have no limits...
It's very likely that Belarus army is going to join Russian forces in attacks. And from what I read, Ukraine would respon with rockets attack towards Belarus.

Not sure how much clearer i can be. US will never allow Cuba to enter into any defensive pacts (regardless of how lawful/democratic/liberating/profitable... it will be for Cuba) that would allow other countries to bring nukes into Cuba. China will never allow Taiwan to enter into any pact (regardless of how lawful/democratic/liberating/profitable... it will be for Taiwan) that will allow 3rd country to bring nukes into Taiwan. Now you can argue whether it is right/ethical/lawful etc... but it'd be silly to argue the fact itself.

I'm not sure why you're talking about brinngin nukes. Poland and Baltic states is NATO members and there is no nukes there. How Ukraine would be different? What if Finland will decide to join NATO? Russia will start war against them too?

[af_newbie]

In last day Russian attacks end with much more deaths of civilians. They shooting at houses and apartments of people, hospitals, kindergartens, Kharkiv city municipality and Kyiv TV tower. They are still say that Russia attack only military objects, but it's rude lie. If they're doing such things, seems that they have no limits...
It's very likely that Belarus army is going to join Russian forces in attacks. And from what I read, Ukraine would respon with rockets attack towards Belarus.

Not sure how much clearer i can be. US will never allow Cuba to enter into any defensive pacts (regardless of how lawful/democratic/liberating/profitable... it will be for Cuba) that would allow other countries to bring nukes into Cuba. China will never allow Taiwan to enter into any pact (regardless of how lawful/democratic/liberating/profitable... it will be for Taiwan) that will allow 3rd country to bring nukes into Taiwan. Now you can argue whether it is right/ethical/lawful etc... but it'd be silly to argue the fact itself.

I'm not sure why you're talking about brinngin nukes. Poland and Baltic states is NATO members and there is no nukes there. How Ukraine would be different? What if Finland will decide to join NATO? Russia will start war against them too?

Putin has lost his mind.  The only thing he can think of is "denazification, denazification, denazification, denazification,..."

Whatever that means. I am afraid he really means the extermination of Ukrainians.

The tragedy and the scary part is that there are a lot of people in Russia who agree with him.

Was this 6-year old girl a Nazi?
https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/28/europe/gallery/ukraine-girl-killed/index.html

[DaRude]

In last day Russian attacks end with much more deaths of civilians. They shooting at houses and apartments of people, hospitals, kindergartens, Kharkiv city municipality and Kyiv TV tower. They are still say that Russia attack only military objects, but it's rude lie. If they're doing such things, seems that they have no limits...
It's very likely that Belarus army is going to join Russian forces in attacks. And from what I read, Ukraine would respon with rockets attack towards Belarus.

Not sure how much clearer i can be. US will never allow Cuba to enter into any defensive pacts (regardless of how lawful/democratic/liberating/profitable... it will be for Cuba) that would allow other countries to bring nukes into Cuba. China will never allow Taiwan to enter into any pact (regardless of how lawful/democratic/liberating/profitable... it will be for Taiwan) that will allow 3rd country to bring nukes into Taiwan. Now you can argue whether it is right/ethical/lawful etc... but it'd be silly to argue the fact itself.

I'm not sure why you're talking about brinngin nukes. Poland and Baltic states is NATO members and there is no nukes there. How Ukraine would be different? What if Finland will decide to join NATO? Russia will start war against them too?

Any country that boarders a current nuclear power that decides to join a pact which would allow 3rd country to put its nukes on that country's land, would most definitely move the doomsday clock hands in the wrong direction. And that's for the better, this is not a precedent that you want to set. It would allow poor countries to offer their land to (possible) nukes for the right incentives. How would you feel about Mexico joining a pact with Russia for free oil that would allow Russian nukes on Mexico/US border? Or how much do you think would China need to offer to Albania for the rights to place Chinese nukes on Albanian soil?*

*Of course it wouldn't just be for the nukes. It'd be packed in a nice pact with other very lucrative trade deals, single currency, and lending terms, with an option for nukes, so that country could prosper.

[DaRude]

In last day Russian attacks end with much more deaths of civilians. They shooting at houses and apartments of people, hospitals, kindergartens, Kharkiv city municipality and Kyiv TV tower. They are still say that Russia attack only military objects, but it's rude lie. If they're doing such things, seems that they have no limits...
It's very likely that Belarus army is going to join Russian forces in attacks. And from what I read, Ukraine would respon with rockets attack towards Belarus.

Not sure how much clearer i can be. US will never allow Cuba to enter into any defensive pacts (regardless of how lawful/democratic/liberating/profitable... it will be for Cuba) that would allow other countries to bring nukes into Cuba. China will never allow Taiwan to enter into any pact (regardless of how lawful/democratic/liberating/profitable... it will be for Taiwan) that will allow 3rd country to bring nukes into Taiwan. Now you can argue whether it is right/ethical/lawful etc... but it'd be silly to argue the fact itself.

I'm not sure why you're talking about brinngin nukes. Poland and Baltic states is NATO members and there is no nukes there. How Ukraine would be different? What if Finland will decide to join NATO? Russia will start war against them too?

Putin has lost his mind.  The only thing he can think of is "denazification, denazification, denazification, denazification,..."

Whatever that means. I am afraid he really means the extermination of Ukrainians.

The tragedy and the scary part is that there are a lot of people in Russia who agree with him.

Was this 6-year old girl a Nazi?
https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/28/europe/gallery/ukraine-girl-killed/index.html

I understand how you feel, so just posting facts from wiki without comments.

Ukrainians in Russia make up the largest single diaspora group of the Ukrainian people. The 2010 Russian census identified 1.9 million Ukrainians living in Russia
...An estimated 340,000 people born in Ukraine, mostly young people, permanently settle legally in Russia each year.
...The number was estimated to have risen to 2.5 million as of December 2014. *(After annexation of Crimea)
...As of September 2015, there were 2.6 million Ukrainians living in Russia
...Over 420,000 asylum-seekers from Ukraine had registered in Russia as of November 2017.
...Assimilation has also been a factor in the falling number of Ukrainians; many intermarry with Russians, due to cultural similarities, and their children are counted as Russian on the census. Otherwise, the Ukrainian population has mostly remained stable due to immigration from Ukraine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainians_in_Russia

[suchmoon]

Any country that boarders a current nuclear power that decides to join a pact which would allow 3rd country to put its nukes on that country's land, would most definitely move the doomsday clock hands in the wrong direction.

So it's a good thing that NATO membership doesn't allow that? Is that your point?

[af_newbie]

In last day Russian attacks end with much more deaths of civilians. They shooting at houses and apartments of people, hospitals, kindergartens, Kharkiv city municipality and Kyiv TV tower. They are still say that Russia attack only military objects, but it's rude lie. If they're doing such things, seems that they have no limits...
It's very likely that Belarus army is going to join Russian forces in attacks. And from what I read, Ukraine would respon with rockets attack towards Belarus.

Not sure how much clearer i can be. US will never allow Cuba to enter into any defensive pacts (regardless of how lawful/democratic/liberating/profitable... it will be for Cuba) that would allow other countries to bring nukes into Cuba. China will never allow Taiwan to enter into any pact (regardless of how lawful/democratic/liberating/profitable... it will be for Taiwan) that will allow 3rd country to bring nukes into Taiwan. Now you can argue whether it is right/ethical/lawful etc... but it'd be silly to argue the fact itself.

I'm not sure why you're talking about brinngin nukes. Poland and Baltic states is NATO members and there is no nukes there. How Ukraine would be different? What if Finland will decide to join NATO? Russia will start war against them too?

Putin has lost his mind.  The only thing he can think of is "denazification, denazification, denazification, denazification,..."

Whatever that means. I am afraid he really means the extermination of Ukrainians.

The tragedy and the scary part is that there are a lot of people in Russia who agree with him.

Was this 6-year old girl a Nazi?
https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/28/europe/gallery/ukraine-girl-killed/index.html

I understand how you feel, so just posting facts from wiki without comments.

Ukrainians in Russia make up the largest single diaspora group of the Ukrainian people. The 2010 Russian census identified 1.9 million Ukrainians living in Russia
...An estimated 340,000 people born in Ukraine, mostly young people, permanently settle legally in Russia each year.
...The number was estimated to have risen to 2.5 million as of December 2014. *(After annexation of Crimea)
...As of September 2015, there were 2.6 million Ukrainians living in Russia
...Over 420,000 asylum-seekers from Ukraine had registered in Russia as of November 2017.
...Assimilation has also been a factor in the falling number of Ukrainians; many intermarry with Russians, due to cultural similarities, and their children are counted as Russian on the census. Otherwise, the Ukrainian population has mostly remained stable due to immigration from Ukraine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainians_in_Russia

I hope you understand how crazy Putin's idea of reuniting the Russian people is.

If you follow this logic, Ukraine should be bombing Moscow right now, and annexing Russia because there are millions of Ukrainians in Russia.

The whole thing is just mad.  Killing Russians to reunite Russians.

He would make more sense, if he was honest with the world and say, I want the Ukrainian territories.  This talk about the genocide of Russians by the Nazi regime, or "denazification" just confirms that he has lost touch with reality.

[suchmoon]

If you follow this logic, Ukraine should be bombing Moscow right now, and annexing Russia because there are millions of Ukrainians in Russia.

Ancient Kievan lands... 1000 years ago, since before Moscow even existed.

[af_newbie]

If you follow this logic, Ukraine should be bombing Moscow right now, and annexing Russia because there are millions of Ukrainians in Russia.

Ancient Kievan lands... 1000 years ago, since before Moscow even existed.

So Turkey should be invading Bulgaria and Crimea, lol.

Complete madness.  I wish we had a time machine so that we could send all these autocrats to the 11th century where they belong.

[suchmoon]

So Turkey should be invading Bulgaria and Crimea, lol.

Complete madness.  I wish we had a time machine so that we could send all these autocrats to the 11th century where they belong.

I would suggest 15th century, because it gets better. I found evidence that Ukraine is actually ancient NATO land: