Russian Invasion of Ukraine[In Progress]

[LTU_btc]

I am based on data from the Russian Ministry of Defense. There are a lot of fakes on the Ukrainian side (including about 100 captured tanks), Russian data looks reliable. Putin has declared the west to be the "Empire of Lies", so Russians have to tell the truth in order to look like a knight in shining armor.

Why do you think information from Russian defence ministry is reliable and they're not spreading fakes? Blindly believing in information given by one side is living in alternative reality.

Yes, this is discrimination based on nationality, a manifestation of Nazism. What collective responsibility are you talking about? I did not vote for Putin in the elections and I am not responsible for his decisions and actions. I am responsible for my decisions and actions, but I have no responsibility simply because I am Russian. I am human and you can treat me without national or racial prejudice.

Maybe you or some other people didn't voted for Putin, but still, he is elected by majority of votes. And according to surveys, over 60% of Russians support war in Ukraine. If they support it, I think they should be ready to accept consequences of it, one of it is banning Russian athletes from competitions. This is waht is collective responsibility. Yes, it's not compleely fair thing because people who aren't responsible fro it and don't support war is also suffering, but nobody haven't offered better solution.
Let's say that I didn't voted for presdent or government of my country. I don' like what they're doing, but I accept this as we live in democracy and majority of people who voted, showed support for them.

They probably expect same respect as recently deceased USA politician who said that death of 500 000 Iraq children
was worth price to be sure that Saddam doesn't have WMDs.

let numbers sink to you for a while:

150 dead children in Ukraine, unprecedented sanctions
500 000 dead children in Iraq, nothing happens

Before you accuse me of Russophilia: yes, I think all wars are disaster, and I think Russia are in Ukraine
not only for geostrategic, but also economic reasons. But Ukrainian leadership played right into Putin
narrative, as if they wanted him to attack

Also, amount of American hypocrisy is staggering

I love when people start whataboutism and brings USA card. How it justifies war in Ukraine? And you really compare number of victims in war which lasted few years and war in Ukraine which started month ago. I'm not going to justify what US did in Iraq, but it's not a reason not to react in things which happening in Ukraine now.
And I don't see how Ukraine actions provocted Putin to attack them. Yes, they wanted to join NATO, but they wouldn't be accepted because of ongoing conflict in Donbass. So, there was no real threat for Russia. And can you answer me, does Ukraine need to be in NATO or NATO need to have Ukraine? I think all things show that NATO don't really want to have cUkraine in their alliance.

[1714001069]

1714001069

[mikeywith]

I'm not a fan of US "peace and democracy" exports if that's your angle. That doesn't mean that small or large Eastern European countries - or any countries - should be just given to Putin.

The U.S and Russia think alike somehow, they both can just invade any country they want and they both play their "national security" card to justify the invasion, luckily Russia isn't capable (yet) of invading countries on the other side of the planet, also luckily things did not end up well for the last a few U.S invasions, hopefully, this war ends soon and teaches both of these countries (and all the other countries with a history of invasion) to mind their own freaking business.

[Veleor]

NATO nukes haven't moved closer to Russia in the last 30 years and there were no plans to do so.

Apparently, Moscow took very seriously the speech of President Vladimir Zelensky who said at the Munich Conference on February 19, 2022 that Ukraine is ready to withdraw from the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (the "Budapest Memorandum"). Zelensky also asked to announce the time frames for Ukraine's entry into NATO.

NATO expansion was quite clearly defensive and it would have remained so even if Ukraine joined NATO.

The purpose of creating NATO at the initial stage was to contain Soviet control in Europe, but even after the collapse of the USSR, the alliance still continued to move east. In 1999, NATO organized the bombing of Yugoslavia in violation of the UN Charter, so it is wrong to claim that this block pursues "clearly defensive" goals.

Despite Putin's delusions, the West wants a stable prosperous Russia to trade with, not a shithole to fight with.

However UK opposes now to early peace talks between Ukraine and Russia.

If they wanted to attack it they'd have done it in mid-1990s.

It is obvious that no one wanted to mess with Russia because of its nuclear weapons, which left in this country after the collapse of the USSR.

[suchmoon]

it is wrong to claim that this block pursues "clearly defensive" goals.

The quibbling of what is "defensive" aside, that's not what I said. I said the expansion since 1990s was clearly defensive, i.e. new countries were joining because they didn't want the repeat of pre/post WW2 annexations and puppetry from Russia. You know, the exact thing that's happening right now with Ukraine. None of these countries had reasons to start a war with Russia, nor would they have been able to drag NATO into starting a war with Russia.

[xandry]

In Russia there is no Ministry of Truth, which indicates how to think.

No, there is. At the moment, this is not one organization, but several at once: the prosecutor's office, the Prosecutor General's Office, Roskomnadzor and other "power" structures. Even if we talk about the survey that many people refer to here... they asked the question "do you support a special military operation?". Even a complete idiot should realize that this is a technique for manipulating thinking and the results would be completely different if the question sounded like "do you support the war Russia with Ukraine?".
All censorship and silencing of information is the work of the Ministry of Truth. A huge part of the russian population is not even aware of the fact that Russian soldiers staged there and how big is corruption in Russia.

Some reference links:
‘Don’t call it a war’ – propaganda filters the truth about Ukraine on Russian media
Ecли вepить гocyдapcтвeнным coцoпpocaм, бoльшинcтвo poccиян пoддepживaют вoйнy в Укpaинe. Ho мoжнo ли им вepить? Boт пять гpaфикoв, кoтopыe пoмoгaют oтвeтить нa этoт вoпpoc
Пpaвдa ли, чтo влacти пpoвoдят coцoпpocы c пoмoщью cпeцcлyжб? Учeный Гpигopий Юдин oтвeчaeт нa caмыe пoпyляpныe вoпpocы o poccийcкoй coциoлoгии

In Russia, it is not customary to glorify Nazism.

Wagner Group
Cyд в Mocквe пpизнaл плaкaт «Фaшизм нe пpoйдeт» диcкpeдитaциeй Boopyжeнныx cил PФ
Poccия: кceнoфoбия, pacизм, a тeпepь и пpoявлeния нaцизмa
Heoнaцизм в Poccии
Boйнa вышлa из пoдвopoтeн
Aнтифaшиcты в Poccии
Умep Maкcим Tecaк Mapцинкeвич. Кaк oн cтaл глaвным нeoнaциcтoм Poccии и мoг ли пoкoнчить c coбoй?
Myжcкoe гocyдapcтвo
Copaтники Bлaдиcлaвa Пoзднякoвa тpaвят вдoвy тeмнoкoжeгo cтyдeнтa, кoтopый yтoнyл, cпacaя дeвyшкy
Дёмyшкин, Дмитpий Hикoлaeвич

Yes, now skinheads no longer walk the streets and do not kill migrants, but this has turned into some part of the national idea: for many years, through federal channels, Russians have been inspired by how flawed Americans and Europeans are. For example, offensive statements like "pindos", "geyropa" are very common in modern Russia. After the seizure of Crimea, strong anti-Ukrainian propaganda began.

[Etranger]

After the seizure of Crimea, strong anti-Ukrainian propaganda began.

And not only against Ukraine. The list of unfriendly countries is being actively supplemented by Poland and the Baltic States. As you may know, Poland is now most active in helping Ukrainians, both defenders and refugees and civilians. Polish civilians are really concerned over russia's threats. For example, a russian missile recently crashed in Ukraine 20 km from the border with Poland, ie NATO.

https://www.politico.eu/article/western-europe-listen-to-the-baltic-countries-that-know-russia-best-ukraine-poland/

https://cepa.org/the-baltics-should-be-worried/

https://www.ft.com/content/38b1906f-4302-4a09-b304-dc2ecf5dc771

[paxmao]

...
Maybe you or some other people didn't voted for Putin, but still, he is elected by majority of votes. And according to surveys, over 60% of Russians support war in Ukraine. If they support it, I think they should be ready to accept consequences of it, one of it is banning Russian athletes from competitions. This is waht is collective responsibility. Yes, it's not compleely fair thing because people who aren't responsible fro it and don't support war is also suffering, but nobody haven't offered better solution.
...

Polls and support in a country where the opposition is send to jail, there is a law that penalises with 15 years saying anything else than the "official truth" and, in general, has demolished systematically any dissenting voice means very little.

We tend to forget that one of the pillars of a Democracy is free press. The fact that a candidate is "elected" means nothing when the electorate is kept in the dark.

[LTU_btc]

Polls and support in a country where the opposition is send to jail, there is a law that penalises with 15 years saying anything else than the "official truth" and, in general, has demolished systematically any dissenting voice means very little.

We tend to forget that one of the pillars of a Democracy is free press. The fact that a candidate is "elected" means nothing when the electorate is kept in the dark.

I agree with you. Putin destroyed free press and opposition. But even if don't beleive in polls, all things shows that majority of people support war in Ukraine. One reasons of it is that they see one truth on TV and media is washing their brain for few decades. They blame NATO and US for this war, or as @xandry said -  pindos and geyropa. And these who don't support it, they keep silent because they simply fear to ruin lifes for themselves and their families.

[paxmao]

Polls and support in a country where the opposition is send to jail, there is a law that penalises with 15 years saying anything else than the "official truth" and, in general, has demolished systematically any dissenting voice means very little.

We tend to forget that one of the pillars of a Democracy is free press. The fact that a candidate is "elected" means nothing when the electorate is kept in the dark.

I agree with you. Putin destroyed free press and opposition. But even if don't beleive in polls, all things shows that majority of people support war in Ukraine. One reasons of it is that they see one truth on TV and media is washing their brain for few decades. They blame NATO and US for this war, or as @xandry said -  pindos and geyropa. And these who don't support it, they keep silent because they simply fear to ruin lifes for themselves and their families.

I am not sure what you consider all things in this context, despite that, there is a difference between a democracy and a despotic regime. In a democracy, the people of a country are to blame for unethical behaviours of their countries, however in a Tzardom, at most they can be blamed for not revolting or being, mostly, apathic about it.

[suchmoon]

Criminal gangs formerly known as Russian military forces retreat while killing witnesses:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60967463

Journalists entering a Ukrainian town which saw fierce fighting with Russian forces have found dead bodies of men in civilian clothes strewn on a street.

An AFP news agency reporter in Bucha, near Kyiv, counted at least 20 bodies. At least one man had his hands tied.

Minimizing civilian casualties I guess. Could have killed 2000 but didn't.

[eddie13]

https://boards.4chan.org/pol/thread/370815748

[be.open]

Yes, this is discrimination based on nationality, a manifestation of Nazism. What collective responsibility are you talking about? I did not vote for Putin in the elections and I am not responsible for his decisions and actions. I am responsible for my decisions and actions, but I have no responsibility simply because I am Russian. I am human and you can treat me without national or racial prejudice.

Maybe you or some other people didn't voted for Putin, but still, he is elected by majority of votes. And according to surveys, over 60% of Russians support war in Ukraine. If they support it, I think they should be ready to accept consequences of it, one of it is banning Russian athletes from competitions. This is waht is collective responsibility. Yes, it's not compleely fair thing because people who aren't responsible fro it and don't support war is also suffering, but nobody haven't offered better solution.

Even if Europe does not have a better solution, this is not a reason to apply a bad solution, simply because they could not come up with anything better. Cultivating Russophobia and thereby encouraging the manifestations of Nazism in Europe is not very smart against the backdrop of the operation to "denazify" Ukraine. Europe should seriously consider its behavior towards Russia, given that Europe depends on Russia, it seems much more than Russia depends on Europe. Nazism did not fall on Ukraine from an unknown distance, Nazism was and remains the highest stage in the development of European philosophical thought - and this is a serious problem in Europe, because Nazism is unacceptable to Russia.
 
#StopHatingRussians

[Branko]

What you are doing is saying that Ukraine acted "as if" they wanted to be invaded, I do understand the statement and the wording, but it can be easily interpreted as a covered attempt of justification for the aggression so. My question, that you just do not answer, remains: Do you think they wanted to be invaded?

I gave you video of Zelensky advisor where he says they want Russia to attack them. But you don't watch videos, and
somehow my opinion is more important to you, than Zelensky's advisor.

Why is that? Do you think my opinion  more important to Zelensky than his own advisor?

[Veleor]

Criminal gangs formerly known as Russian military forces retreat while killing witnesses:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60967463

The Russian propaganda Telegram channel denies this accusation. Among other things, they refer to this video "Shocking footage of peaceful civilians in Bucha being shot by Rashists", claiming that the bodies are "moving" at 12 15 and 30 seconds. However, other commentators say that these are not "moving bodies", but the effect due to wet glass.

We tend to forget that one of the pillars of a Democracy is free press. The fact that a candidate is "elected" means nothing when the electorate is kept in the dark.

The Ukrainian and Russian sides are now both actively clearing the information field in the context of a military conflict. After February 24, many opposition channels in Russia that had been operating for decades were closed and Roskomnadzor by decision of the Prosecutor General's Office closed access to many Ukrainian and west media. In its turn, Ukrainian president banned pro-Russian parties in Ukraine and also united all national media on one platform.

... however in a Tzardom, at most they can be blamed for not revolting or being, mostly, apathic about it.

There is a popular expression that rebellion in Russia is senseless and merciless. Revolutions in Russia turn into a bloody massacre and a social catastrophe (Time of Troubles, Pugachev's Rebellion, Russian Civil War, etc). Russian riot sweeps everything in its path, so the Russians endure their rulers to the very end, that's why the Russian rulers so brazenly rob and humiliate people - rulers hope apparently that patience of people will not end during their lifetime. Revolutions in Russia are successful only when the Russian army supports the citizens.

Wagner Group

If compare the Russian "Wagner Group" and the Ukrainian "Azov Battalion", the difference between them is that the "Wagner Group" is an unofficial private organization, while "Azov" is the official unit of the National Guard of Ukraine. US Congress recognized "Azov" as a neo-Nazi entity and banned the supply of weapons to them. According to The Economist the Wagner Group is called "Putin's private army", because the head of Ukraine’s security services called it that. But in addition to the words of a Ukrainian official, are there any evidence?

As you may know, Poland is now most active in helping Ukrainians, both defenders and refugees and civilians. Polish civilians are really concerned over russia's threats.

I wonder if Polish civilians see a threat to their own security that the Ukrainian government is persistently trying to make Stepan Bandera as a national hero, who is directly linked with the mass murders of Polish civilians during the Second World War. The fact that Bandera is a hero for some modern Ukrainians, the President Zelensky considers as "a normal and cool thing". In the present Ukraine streets are named after Stepan Bandera and torchlight processions are held with his portraits along the central streets of Kyiv, surrounded by the National Guard. Whether or not, some political scientists explain the activity of the Polish government (including the desire to use the peacekeeping contingent) by the wish to return control over the western regions of Ukraine, which in the past belonged to Poland.

a russian missile recently crashed in Ukraine 20 km from the border with Poland, ie NATO.

It should be clarified that these missiles hit the Yavoriv military base where foreign mercenaries were trained. If I'm not confusing anything, there were rumors before this strike that Russian troops were not going to attack the western part of Ukraine.

[Tash]

There are no bigger enemies than politicians, anywhere in the world.
https://halturnerradioshow.com/index.php/en/news-page/world/there-is-no-contract-for-natural-gas-between-gazprom-in-russia-and-germany

[suchmoon]

I gave you video of Zelensky advisor where he says they want Russia to attack them. But you don't watch videos, and
somehow my opinion is more important to you, than Zelensky's advisor.

Why is that? Do you think my opinion  more important to Zelensky than his own advisor?

That's a really absurd misinterpretation of what Arestovich said. He was certain that Putin will inevitably start a full-scale war against Ukraine, based on Putin's actions over the prior decade or two. That doesn't mean he (or Zelensky, or the Ukrainian government) wanted it, let alone could somehow make Putin attack Ukraine.

The Russian propaganda Telegram channel denies this accusation. Among other things, they refer to this video "Shocking footage of peaceful civilians in Bucha being shot by Rashists", claiming that the bodies are "moving" at 12 15 and 30 seconds. However, other commentators say that these are not "moving bodies", but the effect due to wet glass.

There is plenty of other proof now coming out of regions where Russian forces retreated. Burned bodies on roads etc. I don't know why you're trying to muddy the water here with Kremlin propaganda. Of course they'll deny it.

War is war, but this is something else.

[LTU_btc]

I think many of you saw photos from Buch city where streets is full of ded people, men killed with their hands tied and people buried in mass grave. Guess how Russian defense ministry reacted to it. Everything is staged and faked by Kiev to show it for foreign media and while city was under control of Russia, none of civilians weren't hurt:
https://ria.ru/20220403/minoborony-1781557525.html

Even if Europe does not have a better solution, this is not a reason to apply a bad solution, simply because they could not come up with anything better. Cultivating Russophobia and thereby encouraging the manifestations of Nazism in Europe is not very smart against the backdrop of the operation to "denazify" Ukraine. Europe should seriously consider its behavior towards Russia, given that Europe depends on Russia, it seems much more than Russia depends on Europe. Nazism did not fall on Ukraine from an unknown distance, Nazism was and remains the highest stage in the development of European philosophical thought - and this is a serious problem in Europe, because Nazism is unacceptable to Russia.
 
#StopHatingRussians

Like I said before, you and many other Russians see Nazis everywhere, but it's more like looking for skeletons in th closet. Russia need to find imaginary enemy to justify ther actions. You can find far-right movements around Europe, including Russia, but it's so insignificant and small and they don't play any role to pay much attention to them.
Russophobia is another thing, but it's that Russians aren't liked without any reason. Simply every action have consquences.

[be.open]

I think many of you saw photos from Buch city where streets is full of ded people, men killed with their hands tied and people buried in mass grave. Guess how Russian defense ministry reacted to it. Everything is staged and faked by Kiev to show it for foreign media and while city was under control of Russia, none of civilians weren't hurt:
https://ria.ru/20220403/minoborony-1781557525.html

There was a fake in the maternity hospital, there was also a fake in the theater, why is it not a fake here? As Hitler said in Mein Kampf, "The more monstrous the lie, the more likely it will be believed." According to another version, this is a quote from the Goebbels manual, but radish horseradish is not sweeter. Apparently, the Ukrainian media follow the precepts of their ideological inspirers.

Like I said before, you and many other Russians see Nazis everywhere, but it's more like looking for skeletons in th closet. Russia need to find imaginary enemy to justify ther actions. You can find far-right movements around Europe, including Russia, but it's so insignificant and small and they don't play any role to pay much attention to them.
Russophobia is another thing, but it's that Russians aren't liked without any reason. Simply every action have consquences.

In Ukraine, the glorification of Nazism took place for many years, in Kyiv, thousands of torch marches were held annually in honor of the SS division of Galicia, consisting of Ukrainian nationalists. Numerous monuments and museums of Bandera, streets and avenues named after him in forty cities in Ukraine. The Nazi battalion "Azov" is part of the Armed Forces of Ukraine on a regular basis. You are right, there are ultra-right nationalists in different countries of Europe, and I think in Russia too. But usually these are all sorts of hooligans, drug addicts and freaks, but in Ukraine it is an open mainstream and a unifying national idea.

[tvbcof]

...You are right, there are ultra-right nationalists in different countries of Europe, and I think in Russia too. But usually these are all sorts of hooligans, drug addicts and freaks, but in Ukraine it is an open mainstream and a unifying national idea.

In the U.S., this fodder has been sucked into the so-called ANTIFA and BLM for the most part leaving few left-overs for the ultra-right to use.

[coolcoinz]

After the seizure of Crimea, strong anti-Ukrainian propaganda began.

And not only against Ukraine. The list of unfriendly countries is being actively supplemented by Poland and the Baltic States. As you may know, Poland is now most active in helping Ukrainians, both defenders and refugees and civilians. Polish civilians are really concerned over russia's threats. For example, a russian missile recently crashed in Ukraine 20 km from the border with Poland, ie NATO.

It's easy to become an enemy of Russia. They made a list of "unfriendly countries" and on the list we have:
Australia, Canada, All of the EU, Iceland, Monaco, Montenegro, New Zealand, Norway, Taiwan, San Marino, Singapore, South Korea, Switzerland, UK and of course US.

All you have to do is condemn the invasion of Ukraine and you're the enemy.

BTW, Ukraine is also listed as "unfriendly"

Whether or not, some political scientists explain the activity of the Polish government (including the desire to use the peacekeeping contingent) by the wish to return control over the western regions of Ukraine, which in the past belonged to Poland.

You're repeating pure Russian propaganda. Those scientists who you're quoting got their scripts straight from the KGB.
The fact that Russia is constantly aiming at restoring its borders from the time of the Soviet Union does not mean that other countries feel the same. As a matter of fact, Russia actively attacked Polish border by sending its agents to Belarus in order to create a fake refugee crisis. Some of the people who were captured trying to cross Polish border from Belarus stated that they flew to Moscow by planes and were then moved by buses to Belarus and told that if they manage to cross the border they will be accepted in the EU and be able to freely travel to Germany and France. This was done to focus Western NATO on the border with Belarus instead of Ukraine. There are even videos of soldiers cutting Polish border fences and aiming laser beams at border patrols to blind them and provoke to use force.

I've seen reports of Russian trolls who were Spreading lies in EU countries, telling people that Ukrainian refugees will take their jobs and Ukrainian women will take their husbands
At the same time Russians were forcing Ukrainians to fight against their countrymen, moving people to Russia by force and then leaving them to freeze in buses, attacking humanitarian corridors and Red Cross warehouses.

Saying that countries who are helping Ukraine are doing it because they secretly want to attack it and annex is such a stupid and baseless claim that only those idiots who worked in Russian web brigades in Ghana could make it up.