Russian Invasion of Ukraine[In Progress]

[Etranger]

Thought we already covered all of this, are we now all clear on the history, and how this operation is completely different and unprecedented?

I do not underestimate the significance of what happened in those situations. And I'm not one to cover such horrific events as "special operations" and the like. The difference is that the war in Ukraine was started to overthrow the legitimately elected government. To change it to the one that would suit Russia, and which would not actually be the government, but would simply be an executor of orders from Moscow. The war was launched to wipe Ukraine off the map as a state. The war has begun because Russia does not consider Ukrainians an independent nation that is different from them, and is trying to convince the whole world about that. Although there is a big difference between us. Even the causes of the war are not honestly named. Russia stubbornly persuaded its own population that this is a "special operation in the Donbass", and the goal declared - "demilitarization and denazification of Ukraine."

The difference is that this is a war on two fronts - not only against Ukrainians, but also against Russians, who for decades have been made intellectual impotent, who only consume information from television and are incapable of critical thinking. And it is still unknown which of these wars is scarier and more dangerous. Ukrainians are fighting now. Can the same be said about the Russians?

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[Ultegra134]

Putin warned Ukraine back in 2014, he said if they try to join NATO he would invade their country. They did try to join NATO and Putin shows that he is not in the making empty threats business. He is simply honoring his words.

In light of the current situation, Ukraine's desire to join NATO is clearly justified. Ukraine was concerned about Russian aggression, especially after the Crimea, and wanted protection. NATO membership became a shared goal for the majority of Ukrainians after Russia's military occupation of Crimea. Who is Putin to deny them that right?

Regardless of how you spin it, aggression against a sovereign state with a legally elected government can never be justified. No matter what the issue, Ukraine's sovereignty and independence must be respected by all powers. Putin is a war criminal and it is time for Western countries to stand up to this aggression.

Of course it's justified, Putin never actually stopped making threats and provoking Ukraine, this current situation was foreseeable for the past decade at least, especially after the annexation of Crimea to Russia.

Certainly, invading a country isn't justifiable by any means, while Putin's threats are definitely real and concerning. There needs to be a stop to his madness, but I don't see it happening.

[DaRude]

Thought we already covered all of this, are we now all clear on the history, and how this operation is completely different and unprecedented?

I do not underestimate the significance of what happened in those situations. And I'm not one to cover such horrific events as "special operations" and the like. The difference is that the war in Ukraine was started to overthrow the legitimately elected government. To change it to the one that would suit Russia, and which would not actually be the government, but would simply be an executor of orders from Moscow. The war was launched to wipe Ukraine off the map as a state. The war has begun because Russia does not consider Ukrainians an independent nation that is different from them, and is trying to convince the whole world about that. Although there is a big difference between us. Even the causes of the war are not honestly named. Russia stubbornly persuaded its own population that this is a "special operation in the Donbass", and the goal declared - "demilitarization and denazification of Ukraine."

The difference is that this is a war on two fronts - not only against Ukrainians, but also against Russians, who for decades have been made intellectual impotent, who only consume information from television and are incapable of critical thinking. And it is still unknown which of these wars is scarier and more dangerous. Ukrainians are fighting now. Can the same be said of the Russians?

Right no significance to operation in Afghanistan which didn't overthrow Taliban, and US didn't put in its own puppet regime, which was also overthrown, and now the world once again back to recognizing Taliban as the governing body in Afghanistan? And operation in Iraq didn't overthrow Sadam? Operation in Lybia didn't overthrow Gaddafi? Assad in Syria and Maduro in Venezuelan (holding on so far). If anything overthrowing governments to take over or install your own friendly/puppet government seems to be the main purpose of every conflict after WW2. The cause of every war is never honestly made, no surprise there either. And I'm not even going to address calling the other side "intellectual impotent", and "incapable of critical thinking". Dehumanizing opponent is as old as war itself, and why Russia went with the whole denazification angle.

History judges "scariness" of wars by casualties, that's why UN reports of civilians killed is so important and one of few pieces of information that currently can be trusted.

I'm sorry to say this, but this war was already over when it started, the only unknowns now are how many casualties there will be, and whether Putins regime will be able to survive this. To limit the former any fuckery with Red Cross should be condemned by everyone no questions, as for the latter, we're currently seeing unprecedented global campaign to form "hearts and minds" of the population.

[Markinzo]

All things been equal Ukraine should just do the needful needed to end this war, cause in my own view, Ukraine is been used as a sacrificial lamp for the NATO and USA. If not, hey having they responded proactively rather than just with sanctions and delivery of weapons and tanks to Ukraine?

[DaRude]

Well, FUCK!!

Evacuation of Ukraine's Mariupol fails again, stranding civilians under siege the city council said in a statement.

There you have it, bunch of he said, she said BS. But ultimately the city council said "It is extremely dangerous to take people out under such conditions,"...thats why they need to stay inside the besieged city for the main assault, you know that way it wont be dangerous for them.  
Keeping civilians inside the city about to be attacked, out of concern for civilians safety. War, war is hell.

Edit: Thats the lives of 200.000 innocent civilians they're talking about evacuating an estimated 200,000 people out of the city came to a halt.

[coolcoinz]

Ah the good old independence card.

What right the US had when they decided to invade Iraq? Wasn't Iraq independent enough for your taste? See? This shit cuts both ways. (Which countries sanctioned the US for this btw? None?)

I'll tell you what rights... Russia got nukes. Lots of it. They don't want their neighboring countries to have the same nukes.

The good old "they did it so can we" argument. Imagine this being used in a murder defense. Your honor, I killed my wife, but so did Pistorius!
They have nukes so they can do what they want. Really? The UK and France also have nukes, does that mean they have the right to kill civilians in neighboring countries? I don't think so.
Don't try to justify this genocide with weak arguments.

In the light of same situation one could say Putin has the right to invade Ukraine.

You're comparing the simple right of choice that Zelensky is exercising with the right to murder. Don't you see the difference? It's like killing someone because he chose to be friends with a group of junkies or gays, or skinheads, or change his faith. You can comment on his actions, condemn them, cut ties with him, remove your embassy, stop trading, whatever, but you have no right to kill over this.

[mindrust]

The good old "they did it so can we" argument.

Russia isn't saying "so can we", they are already doing it. Go grab your AK-47 and stop them if you can.

The UK and France also have nukes, does that mean they have the right to kill civilians in neighboring countries? I don't think so.

I don't think so too. When was the last time you checked a world map? Do you see the neighbors of France and UK?

Don't try to justify this genocide with weak arguments.

I didn't. Can you tell me though, where were the sanctions against USA when they invaded Iraq and Libya? Are you justifying the genocide made by the US?

You're comparing the simple right of choice that Zelensky is exercising with the right to murder. Don't you see the difference? It's like killing someone because he chose to be friends with a group of junkies or gays, or skinheads, or change his faith. You can comment on his actions, condemn them, cut ties with him, remove your embassy, stop trading, whatever, but you have no right to kill over this.

That's exactly how the US operates.

[suchmoon]

I think Putin's apologists will soon have something else to worry about. It looks like protests in Russian cities are gaining intensity, despite beatings and arrests by the police. Obviously pro-Putin media isn't gonna report on it, and other outlets have been banned or voluntarily packed up due to new censorship laws, but there is still Telegram and other apps.

Holding cells are filling up so I'm guessing shooting at crowds would be the next step.

[Ultegra134]

I think Putin's apologists will soon have something else to worry about. It looks like protests in Russian cities are gaining intensity, despite beatings and arrests by the police. Obviously pro-Putin media isn't gonna report on it, and other outlets have been banned or voluntarily packed up due to new censorship laws, but there is still Telegram and other apps.

Holding cells are filling up so I'm guessing shooting at crowds would be the next step.

On top of that, I've also read that Russians are fleeing to Finland due to fear of Putin implementing requiring citizens to enlist the army and go to war against Ukraine. I didn't check the validity of the source, but it doesn't sound impossible.

I had also seen a few protests, during the first days of the invasion, but haven't seen anything similar since then. First of all, Russia has been banned from all major social media, while Putin of course isn't going to announce that there are protests against the ongoing war.

[DaRude]

I guess this is good news.

Ukrainian refugees, unlike Syrians or Iranians, are likely to be excluded from a controversial Danish "jewellery law" designed to seize valuables from those fleeing conflict.

https://english.alaraby.co.uk/news/denmark-likely-exclude-ukrainians-jewellery-law

[LTU_btc]

IMO the sovereignty of any one nation lies within their borders, so it should remain an individual country's choice whether they choose to accept refugees. What's remarkable is Poland's acceptance of Ukrainian refugees, they certainly haven't felt the same about immigration when it's people from Iraq, Syria, and Afghanistan. Instead of accusing Poland of white supremacy, what logically applies here is the acceptance of western values and principles, and how that might pertain to a Ukrainian refugee versus a refugee of Iraq, Syria, and Afghanistan.

I think there is big difference between Ukrainian refugees and refugees from Africa and Middle East. Many of these refugees aren't running from war. They are just looking for better life in Europe, trying to reach Germany or France and live from benefits there. While most of refugees from Ukraine is women with children beceause man from 18 to 60 years aren't allowed to leave country.

Putin warned Ukraine back in 2014, he said if they try to join NATO he would invade their country. They did try to join NATO and Putin shows that he is not in the making empty threats business. He is simply honoring his words.

The muppet Zelensky is responsible for all the deaths imo. You just don't fuck with a superpower especially if you have borders with that country.

What was Putin going to do, let Ukraine join NATO and have nuclear warheads right near of Moskow? Not happening.

Ok, Poland and Baltic states is NATO members for two decades, but they never had nuclear weapons isn their country. Actually, Kaliningrad is even surounded by NATO countries. How Ukraine as NATO member would be different? These actions of Russia have pushed Moldova and Georgia to join EU, Finland and Sweden considering to join NATO. Does it means that Putin will have to start war against them?
And offcourse, Zelensky is responsible for everything, definitely not Putin. I'll just tell you that Ukraine want to join EU and NATO long time before Zelensky become president.
And please don't bring USA card here because I haven't saw someone justifying what their did.

[tvbcof]

Brutal Truth about How to Demilitarize and deNazify a Country
  https://youtu.be/wf3pc_2n_s0
Great now Europe has tons of Nazi refugees to deal with, what possible could go wrong. Politicians really are the lowest form humans

Good analysis.  I'll bet the guy us mostly right.  I've usually gotten something out of 'Duran' analysis but it's not one that I follow regularly.

It occurs to me that the American media has got 'the Left' apoplectic about 'white supremacists' already and ready to do damn near anything to fight the menace.  The missing ingredient in America has been actual living breathing 'white supremacists'.  Ten buck says that a whole bunch of 'immigration' happens of these displaced neo-nazis and they fill in this missing piece.

Looks like California has already been busy making comfortable the 'expeditionary forces' by having them work with the state's national guard.

  https://www.army.mil/article/194246/california_ng_ukrainian_forces_maintain_partnership_program

There is no way that creeps like Newsom, Pelosi, etc, or their controllers, are not working hand-in-glove with Putin.  And what better cover than to shriek 'Russian Bots' all day long?

[paxmao]

(someo else's conversation, bla, bla,...)

But isn't Ukraine a sovereign nation, don't they have the constitutional right to join any organization/institution they like and feel will be best for the progress and peace of their nation?

Wasn't Iraq a sovereign nation? Where are the sanctions against the US?

Most of the wars of the US and allies in this century are cynically sold as something else and covered in buzz words such as freedom and democracy until these words have become meaningless. Putin's invasion of Ukraine is also covered in cynic arguments and blatant lies.

Yet, for me, not all wars are the same. While Ukraine's democracy may be less than ideal, it is still a democracy. People have a say, press have a say and, eventually they can drive their destiny - subject to intromissions and pressure yes, like all other countries - but with the people's choice on what to do about it.

And that is why I deplore US intervention in Irak, Saudi Arabia's operations in Sudan, Israel's land grabbing, Europe's operations in several African countries, Ethiopia's own "holomordor" in Tigray, China's treatment of the Uyghur, Daesh acts (in general and particular destroying 3000 year old Assirian ruins),  and countless other acts of aggression.

Yet, at the same time, I do know that, in this case, I have a clear personal stance with Ukraine and a chance to have a future outside Putin's Tzardom. This is an endless war: it is the Hellenic League against the Persian empire, the Republican's against Julius Cesar, the French Revolution against the absolutists, the Parliament against the King of England, the Spanish Republic against Franco, the allies versus Hitler.... one of the few fights worth being fought.

[DaRude]

Well, FUCK!!

Evacuation of Ukraine's Mariupol fails again, stranding civilians under siege the city council said in a statement.

There you have it, bunch of he said, she said BS. But ultimately the city council said "It is extremely dangerous to take people out under such conditions,"...thats why they need to stay inside the besieged city for the main assault, you know that way it wont be dangerous for them.  
Keeping civilians inside the city about to be attacked, out of concern for civilians safety. War, war is hell.

Edit: Thats the lives of 200.000 innocent civilians they're talking about evacuating an estimated 200,000 people out of the city came to a halt.

The Russian military will reportedly hold fire and open humanitarian corridors in several Ukrainian cities, the Interfax news agency reports.

Corridors will be opened from Kyiv, Mariupol, Kharkiv and Sumy at the request of French president Emmanuel Macron, the agency cities the Russian defence ministry as saying.

RIA Novosti also reports:

The Russian armed forces, following a request from French President Emmanuel Macron to Russian leader Vladimir Putin, declare a ceasefire regime from 10:00 and open humanitarian corridors, the Interdepartmental Coordination Headquarters for Humanitarian Response in Ukraine said in a statement. Thus, civilians will be able to leave Kyiv, Mariupol, Kharkov and Sumy.

At the same time, during the opening of humanitarian corridors, the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation will carry out continuous objective monitoring of the evacuation, including with the use of UAVs. Therefore, we warn that all attempts by the Ukrainian side to once again deceive Russia and the entire civilised world in disrupting the humanitarian operation, allegedly through the fault of the Russian Federations this time around are useless and pointless.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2022/mar/07/ukraine-news-russia-war-latest-news-vladimir-putin-zelenskiy-kyiv-russian-invasion-civilian-attacks-irpin-ceasefire-live-updates?filterKeyEvents=false&page=with:block-622597658f0885faa96cac68#block-622597658f0885faa96cac68

Looks like theres still a chance to get civilians out. Hopefully Macron can apply pressure on both sides to force them to let the people through. Red Cross should get its own drones to make sure that no one plays dirty, civilians shouldn't be kept in the besieged city under any pretense.

[Tash]

Oliver Stone documentary from 2016 about Ukraine.

  https://www.bitchute.com/video/Dm8sLn03K33Q/

I will say that it's pretty slanted (toward Putin/Russia) probably in part so that Stone could get access to the Russian side players.  Probably in part because Stone is partial to them, or at least partial away from the West.  I'll also say that it aligns pretty well with my understandings (and/or guestimates) about things over there.

The history covers some stuff around WW-II times and before which is especially interesting.  I think it would have been important to cover a lot more about what happened in Soviet times and they would help explain a lot about what we are seeing now, but it was totally left out (which is why I critique it above.)

Anyway, the piece is well worth the watch for anyone who cares much about this stuff and/or wants to understand it better.

Time and time again the same names pop up, when will the rotten apples be discarded?


Ukraine: The Central Nexus for Neo-Nazism Worldwide
https://youtu.be/iQUhOj83V9U

[OutOfMemory]

I think Putin's apologists will soon have something else to worry about. It looks like protests in Russian cities are gaining intensity, despite beatings and arrests by the police. Obviously pro-Putin media isn't gonna report on it, and other outlets have been banned or voluntarily packed up due to new censorship laws, but there is still Telegram and other apps.

Holding cells are filling up so I'm guessing shooting at crowds would be the next step.

Some european broadcasting companies have resumed sending international news out via short wave radio.
That can't be jammed or locked out, while reaching the most distance spot of Russia, without needing internet connections.
It's astonishing that civilians and companies, but also groups like Anonymous are joining the war against Putin and his Sovjet-buddies in increasing numbers, while the worlds governments are still buying Russia's oil and gas for billions per day.
There's a hidden message to all these governments. You can also see in polls that the control-heavy, governmental "management" of the pandemic has fueled massive distrust in the people.

In other spheres, yesterday after just leaving a store, i heard a worker on the street laughing out loud, after telling his co-workers that he will soon be enjoying the fresh ukrainian meat in the local brothels. I thought about the hundreds of thousand wifes and daughters, kissing their fathers, sons and husbands good bye at the polish-ukrainian border, who decided to stay and defend their home country, while the russian born wife of one of my neighbors, mother of a four moths old, is going fully depressive over her motherland's shithole government actions.
I felt loosing it, turned to the fucker and said: "If you have the balls to repeat this in front of your wife, she will likely cut of your balls when you are asleep. Then i will be laughing the same like you". Silence, while i went away.

Oliver Stone documentary from 2016 about Ukraine.

  https://www.bitchute.com/video/Dm8sLn03K33Q/

I will say that it's pretty slanted (toward Putin/Russia) probably in part so that Stone could get access to the Russian side players.  Probably in part because Stone is partial to them, or at least partial away from the West.  I'll also say that it aligns pretty well with my understandings (and/or guestimates) about things over there.

The history covers some stuff around WW-II times and before which is especially interesting.  I think it would have been important to cover a lot more about what happened in Soviet times and they would help explain a lot about what we are seeing now, but it was totally left out (which is why I critique it above.)

Anyway, the piece is well worth the watch for anyone who cares much about this stuff and/or wants to understand it better.

Time and time again the same names pop up, when will the rotten apples be discarded?


Ukraine: The Central Nexus for Neo-Nazism Worldwide
https://youtu.be/iQUhOj83V9U

Europe has way more Neonazis than the whole of Ukraine, still a lot less than a percent of the population.
So it's OK for Russia or any superpower to invade Europe and kill civilians on a broad scale, then? "De-nazifying" countries, exactly the way Adolf was trying to "arianize" Europe (and the world, if he wouldn't have failed)?
Regardless of nationality, the real enemy is right behind our eyes, telling us we're better, more important than anybody else.

[Tash]

................
Europe has way more Neonazis than the whole of Ukraine, still a lot less than a percent of the population.

.....

And what country in particular has its own nazi battalion like Azov fully incorperated in armed forces or a nazi political party?
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5382794.msg59436134#msg59436134
In modern time there is no place for such junk.

[Etranger]

And what country in particular has its own nazi battalion like Azov fully incorperated in armed forces or a nazi political party?
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5382794.msg59436134#msg59436134
In modern time there is no place for such junk.

Russia. In Russia, the entire army consists of Nazis. They are so worried about the possibility of the Nazis being in Ukraine, because, apparently, they are afraid of competition.

[OutOfMemory]

................
Europe has way more Neonazis than the whole of Ukraine, still a lot less than a percent of the population.

.....

And what country in particular has its own nazi battalion like Azov fully incorperated in armed forces or a nazi political party?
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5382794.msg59436134#msg59436134
In modern time there is no place for such junk.

Oh, they have, they just make it less obvious. At least parties and groups, not whole governments, you're right there.
However, with the "right" leadership on command, many european countries could create such armed structures in a snap, because the underground militia is already there, self-conserving since WW2, with connections to social and political realms.
In Ukraine you see the sprouts, the rest are still like seeds in the ground. Just add some water and you're there.

[cornhodlr]

I have just read up on this Azov so called white supremacist movement.Does the Ukranian government endorse these people or are they listed as an extremist group?Are there actual nazis in these movements or is this some anti-white race propaganda by mainstream media? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion