Can you answer a couple of questions to a potential bitcoin buyer?

[FatFork]

I came here because here are the people that know bitcoin just like in a store there's a salesman that knows the products he sells. And when I ask this salesman about a particular product I am not interested why people buy or sell this product, but what is this product and what will I actually get after buying it. So if you are unable to answer my questions then simply don't reply. I am not interested in your sophistry.

Who cares what you're interested in or not? This is an open platform, and everybody is entitled to share their opinions. If you want everyone to agree with you, build your own goddamn dictatorship.

Although people have given their opinions, you refuse to accept them (for whatever reason) and are trying to impose your own opinion on them. Why is that? Why are you really here?

[1714153279]

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[Iranus]

I came here because here are the people that know bitcoin just like in a store there's a salesman that knows the products he sells. And when I ask this salesman about a particular product I am not interested why people buy or sell this product, but what is this product and what will I actually get after buying it. So if you are unable to answer my questions then simply don't reply. I am not interested in your sophistry.

Who cares what you're interested in or not? This is an open platform, and everybody is entitled to share their opinions. If you want everyone to agree with you, build your own goddamn dictatorship.

Although people have given their opinions, you refuse to accept them (for whatever reason) and are trying to impose your own opinion on them. Why is that? Why are you really here?

Guys, stop it now,  
I just read the Op and got that the OP is coming here to do a debate, learning is not his main focus.

Kind information, when you people are busy doing debate, in the meantime I'm busy with speculation and buying at the dip.

This controversy is nothing new, it has been debated since the beginning of Bitcoin and will continue to be so in the future.

In where Nocoiners just see nothing but a number, Bitcoiners can see the entire future.  

[virasog]

Bank notes or numbers on my banking account secure the capital that I invested in them because the borrowers are forced, via collateral, to use these notes or numbers to repay their loans.

In a similar way, blockchain secure all the bitcoin transactions. The bank notes can be printed by the government making its value less with more increase in supply but in case of bitcoin, its value will keep on increasing because of its limited supply. Think if you hold 1000$ in dollar and 1000$ in bitcoin (which you call numbers) from 2010, you would have become millionaire by now. This is the potential of bitcoin which you are repeatedly ignoring.

Why would I care for someone's transactions? Why would I fantasize about being a millionaire? I only asked two simple questions. Can you answer them please?

I am sorry as i am unable to answer your questions. The fact is that you do not want to know the reasons/benefit of holding bitcoins so that's why you feel strange seeing bitcoin value grow in the wallet by just staring at it for years and years.

Also there are so many people trying to answer you but you keep on arguing with them without having an intention to agree with their point of view. If you are not willing to understand anything, then what's the point in asking the question ?

[Antithesis]

You people are the problem. You are unable to answer what is bitcoin and what I actually get after buying it.

Of course, people are the problem. You're right and everyone else is wrong. You can't understand that something which is not tangible can be utilized. The answer you're looking is on the main page of Bitcoin's wiki:

Bitcoin is P2P electronic cash that is valuable over legacy systems because of the monetary autonomy it brings to its users. Bitcoin seeks to address the root problem with conventional currency: all the trust that's required to make it work -- Not that justified trust is a bad thing, but trust makes systems brittle, opaque, and costly to operate. Trust failures result in systemic collapses, trust curation creates inequality and monopoly lock-in, and naturally arising trust choke-points can be abused to deny access to due process. Through the use of cryptographic proof, decentralized networks and open source software Bitcoin minimizes and replaces these trust costs.

If you haven't got it, yet, you're problematic.

Of course, you people are the problem. Because I opened this topic for specific questions, and you are all ignoring them. Instead you are talking about completely irrelevant things. I am not asking about your personal opinions on bitcoin and what bitcoin means to you personally. You have other topics for that purpose. I am not asking how fast I can sell, that is, transfer bitcoin to someone else. Or whatever it's tangible or not. I am not asking about your opinions on me. You are constantly attacking my character. I am simply asking, what actual thing will I get for my money? The ownership of what will I have after purchasing bitcoin? With stocks, I have the ownership of a company. With bonds or fiat currencies I have the ownership of debt. Debt is real. There are actual people that must give me money, good, services or labour to settle the debt. So, what actual thing do I own by holding bitcoin?

In where Nocoiners just see nothing but a number, Bitcoiners can see the entire future.  

You cannot live off of future that you created in your imagination. But only off of what you own. Bitconers hold numbers and own nothing.

[DooMAD]

So, what actual thing do I own by holding bitcoin?

To be perfectly honest, anyone who is using Bitcoin purely as a speculative asset and leaves their funds on a custodial exchange doesn't really own anything, in practice.  Is that the point you're not-so-subtly trying to get at?

On the other hand, those who use Bitcoin in the way it was intended to be used will have ownership of space in the ledger.  This in turn grants them financial freedom and independence, which some might argue you can't put a price on.  But you clearly don't care about that, so again, Bitcoin probably isn't the right investment for you.

If you value aesthetics above freedom, I'm sure some morally bankrupt opportunist will be more than happy to sell you some worthless NFTs.  That market exists solely to cater to those "on your level".   

[Iron Fist]

I have read the entire thread. Based on all the above, I believe the OP is right and somewhat misunderstood here.

I believe this somewhat summarizes his entire assertion:

You are unable to answer what is bitcoin and what I actually get after buying it.
<cut>
What are numbers in your bitcoin wallet? Ownership of what will I actually get after becoming the holder of these numbers?

Antithesis, I think your thesis is correct. A buyer (or "investor", if you will) gets nothing when they purchase Bitcoins other than numbers in some database with specific properties. That is an absolute fact that is impossible to refute.

[Antithesis]

So, what actual thing do I own by holding bitcoin?

To be perfectly honest, anyone who is using Bitcoin purely as a speculative asset and leaves their funds on a custodial exchange doesn't really own anything, in practice.  Is that the point you're not-so-subtly trying to get at?

On the other hand, those who use Bitcoin in the way it was intended to be used will have ownership of space in the ledger.  This in turn grants them financial freedom and independence, which some might argue you can't put a price on.  But you clearly don't care about that, so again, Bitcoin probably isn't the right investment for you.

If you value aesthetics above freedom, I'm sure some morally bankrupt opportunist will be more than happy to sell you some worthless NFTs.  That market exists solely to cater to those "on your level".    

How can people live off of "a space in the ledger"? How's that better than pleasing aesthetic senses with a beautiful picture? Btw, I am free. I don't need a space in a database to have freedom.

[BlackHatCoiner]

I am not asking about your personal opinions on bitcoin and what bitcoin means to you personally.

I've never spoken for my personal opinions towards Bitcoin in this thread. Actually, I challenge you to quote me wherever (you think) I did. Those things I've told you are facts.

With bonds or fiat currencies I have the ownership of debt.

Money is debt. You measure this debt in money. Fiat currencies are money, because they're considered by people as currencies. Two individuals could setup their own ledger which would contain their own transactions, in simple “numbers” as you say.

For instance, me and DooMAD. We could create a ledger that starts with 10,000 monetary units and deal by using this as a medium of exchange. Say DooMAD gave me a bar of chocolate, I signed in the ledger that I now own 10 less and he owns 10 more. If more people liked this ledger, it could be considered money. Yes, they're just numbers, but it's a lot easier to transfer the equivalent of ten Teslas by writing down some additional lines, if we're both agreeing on a value, than by transferring the actual vehicles. Therefore, it satisfies for this purpose.

A buyer (or "investor", if you will) gets nothing when they purchase Bitcoins other than numbers in some database with specific properties. That is an absolute fact that is impossible to refute.

But, that's what I've been telling him for the past page. The problem is that he can't understand that it's a wrong conclusion to consider something meaningless just because it's a number in some database... It satisfies one job. Therefore it has at least one purpose of existence.

[franky1]

an object is just atoms
a sound is just vibrations
a digital number is just pulses of electrons

level up thinking:
atoms can be useful for many things. create and do many things
vibrations can be affect many things. create and do many things
an electron can do many things.

in the right formations
atoms can become life, technology, products, the universe
vibrations can become an alert, a spoken word, music, ultrasound imaging
electrons can become heat, movement, different objects, energy, electronic signals, code, software

if you just want to see things as a number, you might as well see your phone as an atom

[Iron Fist]

A buyer (or "investor", if you will) gets nothing when they purchase Bitcoins other than numbers in some database with specific properties. That is an absolute fact that is impossible to refute.

But, that's what I've been telling him for the past page. The problem is that he can't understand that it's a wrong conclusion to consider something meaningless just because it's a number in some database... It satisfies one job. Therefore it has at least one purpose of existence.

Yes, I have read all your comments. I believe you understand the topic well and offer good arguments. However, I do not believe it is necessary to convince the OP of the usefulness or the value of such a system. It seems to me that OP has an understanding of economics, so I agree that he has the right to state his position on the matter. Clearly, Antithesis believes that the benefits of cryptocurrencies are questionable, and I think we should accept this as his subjective opinion and not try to convince him otherwise.

How can people live off of "a space in the ledger"? How's that better than pleasing aesthetic senses with a beautiful picture? Btw, I am free. I don't need a space in a database to have freedom.

Antithesis, you're right here. People cannot live off of or otherwise utilize "a space in the ledger" or "numbers in a database". All they can do is keep the numbers to themselves indefinitely or give them to someone else.

[Antithesis]

I am not asking about your personal opinions on bitcoin and what bitcoin means to you personally.

I've never spoken for my personal opinions towards Bitcoin in this thread. Actually, I challenge you to quote me wherever (you think) I did. Those things I've told you are facts.

With bonds or fiat currencies I have the ownership of debt.

Money is debt. You measure this debt in money. Fiat currencies are money, because they're considered by people as currencies. Two individuals could setup their own ledger which would contain their own transactions, in simple “numbers” as you say.

For instance, me and DooMAD. We could create a ledger that starts with 10,000 monetary units and deal by using this as a medium of exchange. Say DooMAD gave me a bar of chocolate, I signed in the ledger that I now own 10 less and he owns 10 more. If more people liked this ledger, it could be considered money. Yes, they're just numbers, but it's a lot easier to transfer the equivalent of ten Teslas by writing down some additional lines, if we're both agreeing on a value, than by transferring the actual vehicles. Therefore, it satisfies for this purpose.

A buyer (or "investor", if you will) gets nothing when they purchase Bitcoins other than numbers in some database with specific properties. That is an absolute fact that is impossible to refute.

But, that's what I've been telling him for the past page. The problem is that he can't understand that it's a wrong conclusion to consider something meaningless just because it's a number in some database... It satisfies one job. Therefore it has at least one purpose of existence.

Money is not debt because gold can be money but is not debt. A bond is debt. Fiat currency is debt. When borrowers are granted loans(dollars) and use them to collect goods, services and labour from the market, they are in debt to the market. They owe the market (dollar holders) goods, services and labour.  And they owe the banks the dollars. Then the banks force them(via collaterals) to withdraw dollars to liquidate theirs loans. So they return the goods, services and labour to the market and in that way get the dollars. Now they owe nothing to the market but they owe the banks the dollars. Finally, they pay the banks the dollars and their monetary debt is settled. So fiat currencies are debt not because they are considered debt by people, but because actual people owe something to other actual people. What you "consider" is simply your state of mind and has nothing to do with reality.

So, when I hold fiat currencies I own debt. When you hold bitcoin you own a number in a database. Why would I trade you my ownership of debt for a number? Because you gave it a fancy name?

[Iron Fist]

So, when I hold fiat currencies I own debt. When you hold bitcoin you own a number in a database. Why would I trade you my ownership of debt for a number? Because you gave it a fancy name?

As I said before, you are right, and you shouldn't. And no one should try to convince you otherwise.
Because no one in the world can guarantee you'll be able to go the opposite direction in the future, so all that's left is just a number in a database which has no intrinsic value.

[Antithesis]

So, when I hold fiat currencies I own debt. When you hold bitcoin you own a number in a database. Why would I trade you my ownership of debt for a number? Because you gave it a fancy name?

As I said before, you are right, and you shouldn't. And no one should try to convince you otherwise.
Because no one in the world can guarantee you'll be able to go the opposite direction in the future, so all that's left is just a number in a database which has no intrinsic value.

And now one fun question: when you enter a ponzi scheme, you hold scheme membership, but what you own?

[BlackHatCoiner]

and I think we should accept this as his subjective opinion and not try to convince him otherwise.

There's a hereby misuse of the word “subjective”. I don't accept this as subjective. And as a wise man once said:

It's all relative.

Money is not debt because gold can be money but is not debt.

Excuse me for this and thank you for correcting me. Yes, not all forms of money are debt. Money is debt only within the modern financial system. Say for instance, your bank account's balance. That's debt, from the bank's side, to you. You can transfer this debt to others and therefore, make it money without withdrawing it.

Yes, everything you described about the debt system is correct. But, debt doesn't change the situation. When I accept to get paid by your debt, I'm supposed to receive my dollars at some point in the future or transfer this debt to someone who will receive those dollars in the future. If you promised to return me monopoly banknotes, that'd also be debt, but I'd refuse, 'cause people don't accept those. I accept to provide you services and sell you products in exchange for pieces of paper or debt of those pieces, because there's a government who's forced their usage.

Anyway, we're not going to ever agree on the debt thing. So here's my question, is it reasonable for some people to not want to deal with debt? What's the problem if two individuals want to accomplish a purchase by the way I described?

For instance, me and DooMAD. We could create a ledger that starts with 10,000 monetary units and deal by using this as a medium of exchange. Say DooMAD gave me a bar of chocolate, I signed in the ledger that I now own 10 less and he owns 10 more. If more people liked this ledger, it could be considered money. Yes, they're just numbers, but it's a lot easier to transfer the equivalent of ten Teslas by writing down some additional lines, if we're both agreeing on a value, than by transferring the actual vehicles. Therefore, it satisfies for this purpose.

And now one fun question: when you enter a ponzi scheme, you hold scheme membership, but what you own?

Don't open up new topics in the same thread. Let's cover one at a time.

[Iron Fist]

So, when I hold fiat currencies I own debt. When you hold bitcoin you own a number in a database. Why would I trade you my ownership of debt for a number? Because you gave it a fancy name?

As I said before, you are right, and you shouldn't. And no one should try to convince you otherwise.
Because no one in the world can guarantee you'll be able to go the opposite direction in the future, so all that's left is just a number in a database which has no intrinsic value.

And now one fun question: when you enter a ponzi scheme, you hold scheme membership, but what you own?

I have no idea. If I had to guess, I'd say: one new experience and a valuable (even if pricey) life lesson.

Although I'm not sure if the "Ponzi scheme" is the correct description. According to wikipedia, the Ponzi scheme leads victims to believe that profits are coming from legitimate business activity (e.g., product sales or successful investments), and they remain unaware that other investors are the source of funds. Those key characteristics do not seem to be present in cryptocurrencies as far as I know.

[franky1]

money can be many things.. it has been many things in the past.
from stones, tulips, gold, sea shells, notched sticks, silver, copper, nickel
but those things do not always stay as money

money is the common use medium of large communities or nations, while its actively used commonly
for instance a copper pipe is not money. but a copper coin with a legitimate design is money

currency is anything used in trade. but money has to be the main recognised, active and current form of currency.

EG if i went to america with a UK £10 bank note.. knowing its money in the UK.. when i go to america.. they will not accept it as money. they accept dollar as their money.

even though £10, gold, btc are currencies. btc is not mainstream to be nationwide world wide money in the real world, but btc is money in the bitcoin community.

EG
a SDR is money between the IMF and national banks. but SDR is not money at the citizen level

[DooMAD]

gold can be money

It can be, but in this day and age, it no longer is.  

Gold is now an asset which you can trade in for fiat.  You can't (in any practical sense) go to any retailer and try to spend a troy ounce on your desired goods or services.  I'd love to see the look on the cashier's face if you tried, though.  And what form would you be expecting your change in?  Maybe think it through and get back to us, yeah?

It's almost as though there were a niche that needed to be filled where there was demand for a form of money which shared some of the qualities of gold, such as scarcity, but in a form which is more easily portable, divisible and secure... If only such a thing existed...  

But no, here we are amidst one of the greatest technological achievements of the last 50 years and we are listening to some jack-off making farcical comments about how they can only watch numbers on a screen.  You go right ahead and stick with your luddite money and your antiquated notions of value.  Best of luck to you.

[Antithesis]

and I think we should accept this as his subjective opinion and not try to convince him otherwise.

There's a hereby misuse of the word “subjective”. I don't accept this as subjective. And as a wise man once said:

It's all relative.

Money is not debt because gold can be money but is not debt.

Excuse me for this and thank you for correcting me. Yes, not all forms of money are debt. Money is debt only within the modern financial system. Say for instance, your bank account's balance. That's debt, from the bank's side, to you. You can transfer this debt to others and therefore, make it money without withdrawing it.

Yes, everything you described about the debt system is correct. But, debt doesn't change the situation. When I accept to get paid by your debt, I'm supposed to receive my dollars at some point in the future or transfer this debt to someone who will receive those dollars in the future. If you promised to return me monopoly banknotes, that'd also be debt, but I'd refuse, 'cause people don't accept those. I accept to provide you services and sell you products in exchange for pieces of paper or debt of those pieces, because there's a government who's forced their usage.

Anyway, we're not going to ever agree on the debt thing. So here's my question, is it reasonable for some people to not want to deal with debt? What's the problem if two individuals want to accomplish a purchase by the way I described?

For instance, me and DooMAD. We could create a ledger that starts with 10,000 monetary units and deal by using this as a medium of exchange. Say DooMAD gave me a bar of chocolate, I signed in the ledger that I now own 10 less and he owns 10 more. If more people liked this ledger, it could be considered money. Yes, they're just numbers, but it's a lot easier to transfer the equivalent of ten Teslas by writing down some additional lines, if we're both agreeing on a value, than by transferring the actual vehicles. Therefore, it satisfies for this purpose.

And now one fun question: when you enter a ponzi scheme, you hold scheme membership, but what you own?

Don't open up new topics in the same thread. Let's cover one at a time.

So, let me get this straight. By holding fiat money I have the ownership of debt. And with ownership of debt, I have the following guarantee that, in for e.g. five years, the borrowers will return me the things (goods, services, labour) that I can live off of: a) bank capital b) loan contracts c) borrowers collaterals d) legal enforceability

By holding bitcoin, I have the ownership of a number(monopoly money), and faith that in five years, unknown people will voluntarily trade me things that I can live off of for monopoly money.

And you are trying to convince me that the second deal is better than the first? And all that because someone gave fancy name to monopoly money and because a crypto community and people like franky1 write poems about it?

So, when I hold fiat currencies I own debt. When you hold bitcoin you own a number in a database. Why would I trade you my ownership of debt for a number? Because you gave it a fancy name?

As I said before, you are right, and you shouldn't. And no one should try to convince you otherwise.
Because no one in the world can guarantee you'll be able to go the opposite direction in the future, so all that's left is just a number in a database which has no intrinsic value.

And now one fun question: when you enter a ponzi scheme, you hold scheme membership, but what you own?

I have no idea. If I had to guess, I'd say: one new experience and a valuable (even if pricey) life lesson.

Although I'm not sure if the "Ponzi scheme" is the correct description. According to wikipedia, the Ponzi scheme leads victims to believe that profits are coming from legitimate business activity (e.g., product sales or successful investments), and they remain unaware that other investors are the source of funds. Those key characteristics do not seem to be present in cryptocurrencies as far as I know.

I meant ponzi in terms of ownership. Crypto holder owns a record in a ledger. Ponzi membership holder also owns a record in some ledger, which verifies his membership. So in both cases holders own nothing they can live off of. But only records. And both holders have faith that someone will voluntarily enter the system so they can exist it, given that no one can live off of records.

[franky1]

So, let me get this straight. By holding fiat money I have the ownership of debt. And with ownership of debt, I have the following guarantee that, in for e.g. five years, the borrowers will return me the things (goods, services, labour) that I can live off of: a) bank capital b) loan contracts c) borrowers collaterals d) legal enforceability

By holding bitcoin, I have the ownership of a number(monopoly money), and faith that in five years, unknown people will voluntarily trade me things that I can live off of for monopoly money.

And you are trying to convince me that the second deal is better than the first? And all that because someone gave fancy name to monopoly money and because a crypto community and people like franky1 write poems about it?

1. holding fiat money promises you nothing. a bank note does not earn you interest. infact each year you lose value holding fiat.
    the longer you hold onto a bank note, the less you can buy with it
    also, if you deposit banknotes into a bank. you are giving in your bank note in exchange to allow them to fractional reserve it to create new loans where they might pay you 0.01% of their profits if you leave it with them for a year, but even this is far below inflation, so your still losing

2. bitcoin in 2009 had like a penny of true cost of creation value. where people liked it because it had features that were different to bank notes. it had a purpose/function/benefit/utility(things you ignore). this incentivised more people to want it.(2010+) and so the competition to create it(mining) increased the cost of creating it. which then translated to the market value of acquiring without mining it to increase.

if bitcoin changed where it became useless as a currency. offering nothing better than other currencies where majority of people stopped using it. thus impacting the mining cost, where( instead of $35k-$85k to mine(now)) it became like $2 to mine, then the market rate would come down to a value window of $2-$5.. instead of the current cost,utility cost value window of $35k-$85k

once you understand the cost/value window. your question then becomes why would anyone pay $70k if it can be acquired by some means for atleast $35k(price within a value window)

[Antithesis]

So, let me get this straight. By holding fiat money I have the ownership of debt. And with ownership of debt, I have the following guarantee that, in for e.g. five years, the borrowers will return me the things (goods, services, labour) that I can live off of: a) bank capital b) loan contracts c) borrowers collaterals d) legal enforceability

By holding bitcoin, I have the ownership of a number(monopoly money), and faith that in five years, unknown people will voluntarily trade me things that I can live off of for monopoly money.

And you are trying to convince me that the second deal is better than the first? And all that because someone gave fancy name to monopoly money and because a crypto community and people like franky1 write poems about it?

1. holding fiat money promises you nothing. a bank note does not earn you interest. infact each year you lose value holding fiat.
    the longer you hold onto a bank note, the less you can buy with it
    also, if you deposit banknotes into a bank. you are giving in your bank note in exchange to allow them to fractional reserve it to create new loans where they might pay you 0.01% of their profits if you leave it with them for a year, but even this is far below inflation, so your still losing

2. bitcoin in 2009 had like a penny of true cost of creation value. where people liked it because it had features that were different to bank notes. it had a purpose/function/benefit/utility(things you ignore). this incentivised more people to want it.(2010+) and so the competition to create it(mining) increased the cost of creating it. which then translated to the market value of acquiring without mining it to increase.

if bitcoin changed where it became useless as a currency. offering nothing better than other currencies where majority of people stopped using it. thus impacting the mining cost, where( instead of $35k-$85k to mine(now)) it became like $2 to mine, then the market rate would come down to a value window of $2-$5.. instead of the current cost,utility cost value window of $35k-$85k

once you understand the cost/value window. your question then becomes why would anyone pay $70k if it can be acquired by some means for atleast $35k(price within a value window)

Of course there are no promises behind fiat money, promises are worthless. Behind fiat there are contracts, collaterals and legal enforceability. That's why I know that the borrowers will always be forced to trade me the things that I can live off of for my fiat. They will always need fiat for their loan repayments. Fiat=loans(debt).

In bitcoin, you don't even have promises. All you have is faith that some anonymous people will trade things that you can live off of for your bitcoin. When people are driven by greed, because the prices go up, this faith based deal looks great. But at some point greed will turn into fear, and then you will learn the hard way what it means to base your business on faith. And none of the poems about bitcoin, blockchain, revolution and freedom will save you. No one can live off of database entries. And why would anyone give you a car for a faith based entity? Think about that.