Bitcoin Forum
May 06, 2024, 01:31:43 AM *
News: Latest Bitcoin Core release: 27.0 [Torrent]
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register More  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 [5] 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 »  All
  Print  
Author Topic: Bitcoin is doomed. Thanks IRS!!! You Ass hats!  (Read 19659 times)
amspir
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 112
Merit: 10


View Profile
March 27, 2014, 10:49:48 PM
 #81

Bitcoin makes taxes more... consentual. Are they going to freeze your BTC if you don't pay? They may imprison you, but they still won't get your precious cyber coins!

I think that depends on where you store your bitcoins.   I'm still scratching my head wondering why Silk Road mastermind Ross Ulbricht would keep his personal wallet of $80 million USD worth of btc on the same same laptop on which he used to administer silk road, only a password dictionary attack away from seizure.

1714959103
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1714959103

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1714959103
Reply with quote  #2

1714959103
Report to moderator
"Governments are good at cutting off the heads of a centrally controlled networks like Napster, but pure P2P networks like Gnutella and Tor seem to be holding their own." -- Satoshi
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction.
BitTrade
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 173
Merit: 100



View Profile
March 28, 2014, 01:44:34 AM
 #82

If anyone thinks this is the killing blow for Bitcoin, they should just get out now, because they don't understand the project in the slightest.

For some reason I don't think satoshi had "regulation" and "taxation" in mind.  Bitcoin was about undermining government monopolies over the world's currency.  We have failed miserably thus far.  
counter
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 798
Merit: 500


Time is on our side, yes it is!


View Profile
March 28, 2014, 04:17:48 AM
 #83

I'm not happy with this ruling as it seems to be doing alot of confusing for newer users and those looking to get into bitcoin...  But I think in other ways it's a good thing it's just a matter of how you look at the big picture IMO.
mysidia
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 93
Merit: 10


View Profile
March 28, 2014, 05:13:14 AM
 #84

On the IRS guidance: Am I wrong in understanding the IRS guidance as their interpretation of existing laws?  No laws were actually changed, correct?  To me it seems the guidance was fair: presently bitcoin is more like property than like currency; if you disagree I believe the courts would have the final say.

Correct.   However,  the courts will only have a say if you treat it as something else, AND it causes you to figure a lower tax,  AND the  IRS rejects your treatment.  Treatment as 'property'  is generally going to be more favorable for the taxpayer than treatment as currency.

This guidance is in greater disparity with people who were/are holding that their Bitcoins are NEITHER their Property,  NOR currency.

In other words: Folks who pose that  Bitcoins are the same as game currency (Such as World of Warcraft Gold), that,   there is therefore no taxable value from obtaining bitcoins  through mining,  playing video games, or whatever,  since this digital association of hypothetical future value to be spendable  by a private key  (Something you know, not something you have),  according to consensus of the Bitcoin network is not a "Thing".

That is... the person who mines a Bitcoin doesn't become an "owner" of anything, or obtain any 'lawful exclusive right'  to anything of value.

Thus no taxable value for bitcoins obtained in trade.


Such treatment would  result in taxable income  only when Bitcoins are "exchanged" for property assets with real value,  or services/goods are obtained.

Much in the same way that earning Warcraft gold while playing World of Warcraft is not taxable,  but any sale of Gold for cash is taxable.


Quote
But the bigger point I want to make is that as bitcoin grows, it may naturally evolve to become more like currency than like property, and at this point would not the IRS guidance less accurately reflect the existing law

If you want to be safe,  you should probably   use the least tax-preferential treatment,  as it is the Revenue Code that you need to follow.   The IRS is just providing a service  to assist taxpayers by providing guidance  on their intended interpretation of the law.

The IRS have the right to change their mind,  at any time with regards to their guidance,  if they see it maximizes tax revenue, they may do so  by updating guidance  or  rejecting the standard guidance on a case-by-case basis.


Also, following the IRS guidance doesn't absolve you for underpayment --- if it turns out their guidance was wrong,  and   some less-tax-preferential treatment was correct:   the taxpayer may be subject to paying more including underpayment penalties.

Quote
The same theme applies to the guidance on mining. From my discussions with various community members, I think the general feeling is that hashers are paid for the services they provide to a mining pool whereas miners create bitcoins based on their own initiatives and the acceptance of their efforts by their peers.

No...  with A mining pool it is still their own initiative.

Mining pools are essentially informal revenue-sharing arrangements;  where people conducting mining combine their computational power,  so they collectively have a better chance of finding a block -----  when one of the miners in the pool does find a valid block,   the reward revenue is redistributed  among the active miners' peers  based on a formula they agreed upon,   which included each miner providing numerous  "intermediary"  hashes  that met a slightly lower difficulty bar,   in order to prove that they were actively mining.


If this is income,  and potential self-employment income, then... of course... the same is true of solo-mining.









BTC: 1FbuJxZCeJUqrP7EpUkgMKWAmAA1M8gUBd
LTC: LbvomgbwKnqk47mWzALCDEoV8ydjxYYYpF
btcton
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1288
Merit: 1007


View Profile
March 28, 2014, 10:59:11 AM
 #85

"The price at which a particular Bitcoin was acquired (and this is traceable) determines the capital gains on that particular Bitcoin when spent. "

Except not every bitcoin needs to be obtained through an exchange or with dollars.

The signature campaign posters adding useless redundant fluff to their posts to reach their minimum word count are lowering my IQ.
5flags
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 224
Merit: 100

Professional anarchist


View Profile WWW
March 28, 2014, 11:23:06 AM
 #86

It never ceases to amaze me that a currency, whose primary strength is its independence from government and central banks, is used by so many people who live and die by what the governments and central banks say about it.

http://5fla.gs - @5flags on Twitter
timmmers
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 1176
Merit: 265



View Profile
March 28, 2014, 11:24:09 AM
 #87

o but wait... i can't... i first need to check what the freakin exchange rate was when i got my bitcoins compare it to today's and then write down to report my capital gains to the IRS...

Writing it down because your bitcoin wallet is broken?  Keeping a record because it's impossible to consult the blockchain later?

If you're smart enough to transact bitcoins, I really don't get how you could be too stupid to run your wallet through a TurboTax-Bitcoin app at tax time.


or i can pay with fiat and not have to consult with anything.

Bullshit. You've already paid taxes on that fiat or you will come tax day.


I think his point is that people won't bother, they'll just put a hand in their pocket as they always have and buy the coffee with cash.
Anything that complicates a bitcoin transaction in any way reduces the likelihood of normal people or businesses adopting it.

Why would that cafe even bother with bitcoin and add something else to their paperwork when everyone already has a simple and trusted way to pay them?

Not everyone is into crypto, the majority have no idea what the fuck it is yet, they just want something to buy that coffee with and anything new needs to be an improvement on what they know. They don't give a shit about economics or governments or the future...they elected the morons who run our countries.

I'm wondering who's going to be splashing out on thousands in mining gear when the returns aren't there anymore. Most rigs won't break even at the rate we have now. People with 10k rigs on order must be gutted.

             ▄▄▄▄▄▄
         ▄▄███▀▀▀▀███▄▄
      ▄██▀▀          ▀▀██▄
     ██▀       ██       ▀██
    ██        ██          ██
   ██        ██   ██       ██
  ▐█▌       ██ ▄▄▄ ██      ▐█▌
  ██       ██  ███  ██      ██
  ▐█▌     ██         ██    ▐█▌
   ██    ██           ██   ██
    ██  ▀▀             ▀▀ ██
     ██▄                ▄██
      ▀██▄▄          ▄▄██▀
         ▀▀███▄▄▄▄███▀▀
             ▀▀▀▀▀▀
.Akoin













.ONE AFRICA. ONE KOIN..

█▀▀











█▄▄

▀▀█











▄▄█

█▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀█
█  ██████    ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ █
█  ██████    ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ █
█  ██████    ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ █
█            ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ █
█ ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ █
█ ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ █
█ ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ █
█ ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ █
█ ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ █
█                     █
█ ▄▄▄▄▄▄              █
█▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄█













.TELEGRAM
oda.krell
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1470
Merit: 1007



View Profile
March 28, 2014, 11:27:59 AM
 #88


I can be corrected on this one, in case I misunderstood something, but the entire discussion in here seems to miss one point:

The IRS decision (guidance?) applies to capital *gains*, i.e. the difference in value per unit at time of buying said unit vs. selling it. Correct so far?

If, at some point in the future, BTC/USD more or less stabilizes, the problem disappears (or at least become negligible, except for very large amounts traded).


tl;dr This decision might hurt current speculative value, but it doesn't really harm BTC functionality assuming a more stable exchange rate in the future.

Not sure which Bitcoin wallet you should use? Get Electrum!
Electrum is an open-source lightweight client: fast, user friendly, and 100% secure.
Download the source or executables for Windows/OSX/Linux/Android from, and only from, the official Electrum homepage.
davidgdg
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 551
Merit: 501


View Profile
March 28, 2014, 11:31:19 AM
 #89

Everybody please relax.

BTC has been subject to capital gains in the UK from the beginning. It hasn't had the slightest effect on BTC adoption here.

"There is only one thing that is seriously morally wrong with the world, and that is politics. By 'politics' I mean all that, and only what, involves the State." Jan Lester "Escape from Leviathan"
bananahoho
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 56
Merit: 0


View Profile
March 28, 2014, 11:53:18 AM
 #90

I also hate him very much USA government does not recognize the BTC the money even if the IRS or receiving but its property tax
Honeypot
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 420
Merit: 250


View Profile
March 28, 2014, 11:59:26 AM
 #91

Of course, IRS never changes its mind.

Relax, and just prepare to pay the capital gains tax if you need to. Consult a professional and find ways to minimize it and gain deductions.

For Fuck's Sake, don't flip your shit everytime 'THE MAN' makes an announcement. Adapt. Adjust. Improve.
johnyj
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1988
Merit: 1012


Beyond Imagination


View Profile
March 28, 2014, 12:31:57 PM
 #92

Actually I think this is very positive, since it defined digital property first time in human history. Bitcoin is the first non-duplicatable digital property, and since it is half anonymous and can move oversea in seconds, the taxation need a whole new set of rules, or simply becomes impractical

Joohansson
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 212
Merit: 102


View Profile
March 28, 2014, 01:09:05 PM
 #93

But the USA is the richest nation on the planet...by quite some way. This will have a negative effect on Bitcoin.

America is the greatest country in the history of the world.. not Tongue
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita
leckey
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 434
Merit: 250


View Profile
March 28, 2014, 01:10:44 PM
 #94

It's not illegal. That's good news.

Remember, the IRS only taxes Americans. There are 248 nations.

But the USA is the richest nation on the planet...by quite some way. This will have a negative effect on Bitcoin.

I nearly spat out my coffee!

5flags
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 224
Merit: 100

Professional anarchist


View Profile WWW
March 28, 2014, 01:16:55 PM
 #95

Actually I think this is very positive, since it defined digital property first time in human history. Bitcoin is the first non-duplicatable digital property, and since it is half anonymous and can move oversea in seconds, the taxation need a whole new set of rules, or simply becomes impractical

There's an analogy about a half-watertight submarine in there somewhere.

http://5fla.gs - @5flags on Twitter
aztecminer
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1092
Merit: 1000



View Profile
March 28, 2014, 02:22:22 PM
Last edit: March 28, 2014, 02:32:29 PM by aztecminer
 #96

Gold has industrial value, so its value will remain until viable alternatives compete with those industrial applications.  Fiat and part of BTC value is created by the perception of people like you and me. A piece of paper has no intrinsic value or utility, however BTC goes beyond this and actually does have a very valuable function which is the blockchain.

2tights. I don't think thats necessarily true. Gold's industrial value is peanuts compared to its monetary value.

No monetary media needs to have an industrial value. In fact, it's an important property of any monetary medium that it works as well as possible as a token of exchange and as badly as possible for anything else (other wise it has a tendency to go out of circulation as gold jewellery, circuitry and teeth have done). The monetary medium derives its value from it's "role" in the economy, not from any sense of "intrinsic value" (which is a misnomer anyway - it's easily demonstrate-able that nothing has intrinsic value).

Gold was the "bitcoin" of the old physical world markets. It had certain characteristics of fungibility, resistance to counterfeiting, ilmited supply etc which made it function as a token of value. It was the fact that it was widely adopted in a monetary role that have it it's value - not the other way around.

Here's an example to illustrate. If you go to a kids funpark and buy a few of those plastic tokens for the rides, they'll cost you about 5 Eu / Dollars whatever each. On the other hand, if you buy them in a hardware shop, they'll cost about 1 cent each. So you're paying a markup of many thousands of percent for exactly the same plastic token that is in the monetary role. Nothing to do with "intrinsic value" of plastic tokens.

Gold is exactly the same - it doesn't not have any intrinsic value. It's just that people make a deeply rooted association with gold and value historically, so the word 'intrinsic' gets used to reflect that.

We now live in an electronic trading environment, however and you can't "hold" gold electronically so a new monetary medium is required, hence the emergence of cryptocurrencies.

When you look at it analytically in this way, they actually have more justification for a high valuation than gold does.




unfortunately this what you said is all wrong .. people do hold electronic and paper gold all the time.. if you go to say monex and you tell them you want to buy gold at their exchange and have them store that gold for you in their vault then they will supposedly buy gold for u and store it in their vault for you .. whether they actually ever buy the gold is dabatable but they will issue you a certificate saying that they bought the gold and that you own it .. problem is if you do not hold the physical metal in your hand then you don't really own any gold even if your certificate says you do .. paper or electronic digits is not gold. if monex were to go belly up well you will never see that gold your certificate says you own . now lets go look at the GLD markets. that is all paper gold being traded. the price of gold is manipulated by people who trade in paper gold. the central banks mostly manipulate the price of gold using this paper system where one ounce of physical gold can control like 100000 ounces of paper gold. that is all fakelands and is not real gold.
cdog
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 1036
Merit: 500


View Profile
March 28, 2014, 02:37:10 PM
 #97

But the USA is the richest nation on the planet...by quite some way. This will have a negative effect on Bitcoin.

America is the greatest country in the history of the world.. not Tongue
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

You can measure it however you want. Yes, Im sure in Luxemburg, Frosted Flakes are covered in 90% Bolivian cocaine and the roads are paved with the evaporated tears of the proletariat.

Im quite sure its wonderful there. But when having these discussions, its also important to acknowledge reality. And the reality is, we have most of the "money." (lol)

In fact, our "money" is how other countries denominate and measure their own currencies, products and services... because:

While we dont make anything, we sure as hell like to buy stuff. And as long as we are the biggest buyers, our skin in this game is worth the most.

"You will now be returned to your normal program of FUD and Loathing in Las Taxvegas"

Peter R
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1162
Merit: 1007



View Profile
March 28, 2014, 02:53:46 PM
 #98


I can be corrected on this one, in case I misunderstood something, but the entire discussion in here seems to miss one point:

The IRS decision (guidance?) applies to capital *gains*, i.e. the difference in value per unit at time of buying said unit vs. selling it. Correct so far?

If, at some point in the future, BTC/USD more or less stabilizes, the problem disappears (or at least become negligible, except for very large amounts traded).


tl;dr This decision might hurt current speculative value, but it doesn't really harm BTC functionality assuming a more stable exchange rate in the future.


Also, if you made 3,000 bitcoin purchases over the course of the year, and each one had exactly zero capital gain or loss, from my preliminary research it appears that you are required to not report this.  (However, you should keep private records.)  

If you do report 3,000 day-to-day transactions where each one has exactly zero gain, then it could be interpreted as a "frivolous filing" and you would be fined $5,000 by the IRS as per the Frivolous Filing Fine.  

Check out the ZGL wallet here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=531135.0

This is not legal advice.  IANAL.  



Run Bitcoin Unlimited (www.bitcoinunlimited.info)
Peter R
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1162
Merit: 1007



View Profile
March 28, 2014, 03:09:58 PM
 #99

Here in Canada we have what are known as Tax-Free Savings Accounts (TFSA).  Money and investments placed in a TFSA can grow tax free (interest, dividends capital gains).  You are free to pull money out of your TFSA at any point in time, but you can't put it back in until the next tax year.  Each year we get $5,500 more room in our TFSA.

If you have $25,000 of room in your TFSA and place $25,000 of stock in it, and if this stock reaches $250,000, then you can sell the stock and use the money tax free (i.e., you do NOT have to pay capital gains tax).  The interesting thing is that from this point on, the room in your TFSA remains at $250,000.  The TFSA will slowly phase-out capital gains tax on financial products in Canada for many people.

With the recent tax clarification, I expect to see innovative companies offer registered bitcoin investments for TFSAs and RRSPs (Canada) and 401Ks and Roth IRAs (USA).  

I think this would be quite helpful.  



Run Bitcoin Unlimited (www.bitcoinunlimited.info)
Robert Paulson
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 448
Merit: 250


View Profile
March 28, 2014, 03:49:11 PM
 #100

o but wait... i can't... i first need to check what the freakin exchange rate was when i got my bitcoins compare it to today's and then write down to report my capital gains to the IRS...

Writing it down because your bitcoin wallet is broken?  Keeping a record because it's impossible to consult the blockchain later?

If you're smart enough to transact bitcoins, I really don't get how you could be too stupid to run your wallet through a TurboTax-Bitcoin app at tax time.


or i can pay with fiat and not have to consult with anything.

Bullshit. You've already paid taxes on that fiat or you will come tax day.

I think his point is that people won't bother, they'll just put a hand in their pocket as they always have and buy the coffee with cash.
Anything that complicates a bitcoin transaction in any way reduces the likelihood of normal people or businesses adopting it.

Why would that cafe even bother with bitcoin and add something else to their paperwork when everyone already has a simple and trusted way to pay them?

Not everyone is into crypto, the majority have no idea what the fuck it is yet, they just want something to buy that coffee with and anything new needs to be an improvement on what they know. They don't give a shit about economics or governments or the future...they elected the morons who run our countries.

I'm wondering who's going to be splashing out on thousands in mining gear when the returns aren't there anymore. Most rigs won't break even at the rate we have now. People with 10k rigs on order must be gutted.

Well... maybe Bitcoin's best use case has nothing to do with buying a $0.99 cup of coffee!

Let the "morons" you speak of keep their fiat! I don't care if they live their entire lives as debt slaves.

If bitcoin fails to get those "morons" on board bitcoin will not be used or accepted by almost anyone and thus become valueless and useless.
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 [5] 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 »  All
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!