Securing Your Seed Phrase with Washers

[GazetaBitcoin]

While I want to congratulate fillippone for this incredible article and for all the (physical) work he did for being possible to write it, this topic reminded me of something and I wanted to post these thoughts for a while now, but I keep forgetting to do it...

Seeing fillippone's enthusiams (and also the ones' mentioned in OP), this reminded me of modders. Do you remember the modders? Those enthusiasts which started, many years ago, to modify PC cases, to make exotic cable management, add lights and so on...? Those which did physical work to cut the cases in various shapes as their imagination drove them...?

Well, no matter how well designed a case was, modders' "credo" was this: "why not modify it if we can?" -- this being, of course, in contradiction to PC cases designers, which would say "why would you change such a beautiful case, since it's just perfect?"

Similar to the two credos mentioned above, nowadays we have many types of wallets, each competing with the others for attracting as many users as possible. But still, there are some enthusiasts, such as fillippone, which are willing to try new ideas, ideas also involving physical work, same as modders do. And also, most likely, having same question in mind: "why not change it (n.b. the "old-school" method of storing coins inside a wallet) if we can?".

And, as you see, from this mindset beautiful ideas may arise, including to actually use an anvil (!!!) for storing BTC / private keys...

Thank you, @gazetabitcoin, for helping me sort out that monstrosity and making my posts even better.

Hihi, anytime! (Although I don't remember anymore what the monstrosity was )

[fillippone]

While I want to congratulate fillippone for this incredible article and for all the (physical) work he did for being possible to write it, this topic reminded me of something and I wanted to post these thoughts for a while now, but I keep forgetting to do it...

Thanks for the kind words, but when I got this notification on my hairy wiriest, I really hoped you had finally published your contribution to this topic!
Less words, more facts!
 

[Agbe]

Cheaper than some stainless steel 'seed backup plates'; and definitely cheaper than some (or most) titanium plates.

Well that might be true because the washer itself might be cheap in some countries but differ in prices in the location. This made me to do some research on the price difference and I came to see that the prices are not the in different sites. I thought because of the size of the washers or the quality.

 https://racetechtitanium.com/product-category/fasteners/titanium-fasteners/titanium-washers/

https://www.pro-bolt.com/titanium-flat-washer-m5-15mm-od/ ~3€ each
https://www.titane-services.eu/epages/230155.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/230155/Products/TIR-MU05GR5 ~1.50€ each

Even the sites n0nce provided, the prices are not the same. That means different companies sell it with different prices. Therefore, in some wholesales and retails sell differently. And also that can not be compared to a close place with a distance location and to interior Hamlets.

[fillippone]

My friend @hymperion from the Italian Board:
made a hard treatment to the washers without any apparent effect:

(courtesy translation by me, original post in Italian)

here we are, I would say the blowtorch test passed!

The washers I used are DIN 9021, galvanized steel, hardness 140 HV

WASHER BEFORE:





DURING THE TORTURE: I held the flame for more than 1 minute, I believe it was around 700°at the time the picture was taken,  if not more, judging by the colour.



AFTER THE TREATMENT: afterwards, I also hit the washer with a hammer, but I couldn't see any significant damage

The images are pretty self-explanatory.

He also mentioned using acid as H2SO4 on the washers without any major effect still.

[n0nce]

My friend @hymperion from the Italian Board:
made a hard treatment to the washers without any apparent effect:

(courtesy translation by me, original post in Italian)

~

Awesome! Merits given.

The images are pretty self-explanatory.

Also the 'POS SCHIFO'? Really liked that easter-egg.

[hymperion]

Hi all, glad my work has been appreciated.
If you want, I can also try a long-lasting acid test. the short contact only creates a removable scult, in the long run it should only favor rust but I can easily do this test and publish the results.

[fillippone]

Hi all, glad my work has been appreciated.
If you want, I can also try a long-lasting acid test. the short contact only creates a removable scult, in the long run it should only favor rust but I can easily do this test and publish the results.

That would be a good addition I think.
Even if I really can’t figure out a scenario where your seed is flooded with sulphuric acid (while I can understand why it could be exposed to 700°).

But it would be interesting to know it there is any data loss after a few days in the acid.

[hymperion]

it will be done

[LoyceV]

DURING THE TORTURE: I held the flame for more than 1 minute, I believe it was around 700°at the time the picture was taken,  if not more, judging by the colour.

I'd like to see the same test, but with multiple washers tightened together by a bolt. Can you still separate them after they've been red hot and cooled down?

If you want, I can also try a long-lasting acid test. the short contact only creates a removable scult, in the long run it should only favor rust but I can easily do this test and publish the results.

What exactly did you use? Pure H2SO4 isn't very corrosive to steel, try diluted H2SO4

[hymperion]

I'd like to see the same test, but with multiple washers tightened together by a bolt. Can you still separate them after they've been red hot and cooled down?

What exactly did you use? Pure H2SO4 isn't very corrosive to steel, try diluted H2SO4

the temperature is not such as to cause a fusion and make them stick but I can also do this test without problems.

Are you using acid diluted with water?

[LoyceV]

Are you using acid diluted with water?

I'm not using it myself, but that's what I mean.

[aysg76]

Hi all, glad my work has been appreciated.
If you want, I can also try a long-lasting acid test. the short contact only creates a removable scult, in the long run it should only favor rust but I can easily do this test and publish the results.

Great work man and it's really nice to see members testing the extreme conditions that these washers can survive because we are talking about engraving our seed phrases over them.But yes the acid test would be giving more specific results and does it have any effect over it or not so will be good if you publish the results.

I think steel is corrosive to diluted nitric acid with water but yes you can try it with diluted H2SO4 to see if there is any effect that can cause damage to the engraved seed over them or not.

[hymperion]

okay then I'll dilute it with water and see what happens.

[LoyceV]

okay then I'll dilute it with water and see what happens.

Be very careful there! I don't know how you get pure H2SO4 in your house, but adding water releases a lot of energy > heat > splashing.

[o_e_l_e_o]

okay then I'll dilute it with water and see what happens.

Be careful! Mixing water and sulfuric acid is exothermic enough that it can make the water boil. And since water is less dense than sulfuric acid, any boiling happens on the surface of your container and so the reaction is prone to spit and splash acid all over the place.

Instead add the sulfuric acid slowly to a container of water, so the sulfuric acid will sink through the water and the larger quantity of water will dissipate the heat without boiling.

Edit: Beaten by Marcel by 2 minutes!

[fillippone]

I like where there are diverse talent on the forum! Who would have guessed you need chemistry notion to master bitcoin? As much as  cryptography was easy, then you risk your hand securing your result of elliptic curve scalar multiplication!

[hymperion]

Thanks so much for the advice and concern. 

I should already have a tank of acid diluted 40% with water.

[Welsh]

I like where there are diverse talent on the forum! Who would have guessed you need chemistry notion to master bitcoin? As much as  cryptography was easy, then you risk your hand securing your result of elliptic curve scalar multiplication!

I'm not sure it's needed. We're just nerd at heart , and therefore must overcompensate on everything when it comes to security. As you said previously, it's highly unlikely you get acid anywhere near these things, and if you did you'd probably have to question your security in the first place, and why you stored it close to potentially hazardous material.


I do think though, any tests being carried out should be done as you intend to store them. That way you get a more accurate test. As was said above, storing them together then heating them up. Same as the acid should probably be tested with them stored how you're actually going to store them, as there could be something unpredictable in the way you're storing them.

I actually think the Hermetic container would probably be the weak point. Since, there's plenty for sale, but having one that is to the same grade as your washers is vital.

[hymperion]

exactly, a very important caution is not to expose the first word, you have to put another additional washer ahead so if the container were to melt due to a fire it would not stick to the engraving of the seed word.

[dkbit98]

If you want, I can also try a long-lasting acid test. the short contact only creates a removable scult, in the long run it should only favor rust but I can easily do this test and publish the results.

Nice work testing steel washers!
You could become European and Italian version of Jameson Lopp  
If you don't know he tested and tortured many metallic seed cold storage backups and he wrote extensive reviews.
Maybe you can get some ideas for future testing by reading his reviews:
https://blog.lopp.net/tag/cold-storage/
https://jlopp.github.io/metal-bitcoin-storage-reviews/