2023 Diff thread now opened.

[philipma1957]

Fourth of July is winding down for me.

Diff is up a bit and price is 30.8k.

https://www.bitrawr.com/difficulty-estimator

Latest Block:   797237  (14 minutes ago)

Current Pace:   102.7630%  (918 / 893.32 expected, 24.68 ahead)

Previous Difficulty:   52350439455487.47                            
Current Difficulty:   50646206431058.09                            
Next Difficulty:   between 51632485908164 and 52060049823746
Next Difficulty Change:   between +1.9474% and +2.7916%
Previous Retarget:   last Wednesday at 6:46 PM  (-3.2554%)
Next Retarget (earliest):   July 12, 2023 at 9:44 AM  (in 7d 10h 4m 46s)
Next Retarget (latest):   July 12, 2023 at 12:24 PM  (in 7d 12h 45m 34s)
Projected Epoch Length:   between 13d 14h 57m 56s and 13d 17h 38m 44s
Copy stats to clipboard

a 100th s19 j pro doing  2900 watts burns about 72 kwatts
it earns $7.89 a day pre power, labor, maintenance.

so
power price cost    profit
11 cents = $7.92   3 cents in the red

10 cents = $7.20      89 cent profit
09 cents = $6.48  $1.61 profit
08 cents = $5.76  $2.33 profit
07 cents = $5.04  $3.05 profit
06 cents = $4.32  $3.77 profit
05 cents = $3.60  $4.49 profit
04 cents = $2.88  $5.21 profit
03 cents = $2.16. $5.93 profit
02 cents = $1.44  $6.65 profit

No-one really has 1 cent power when you add in labor and maintenance it at least a penny

buying a used 100th s19j pro for $1200 is possible even less if you shop around

So a six cent guy can pay it off in 1000/3.77 to 1200/3.77 or 265 days to 318 days.  Just about the ½ ing.
 a 5 cent guy pays gear off in 222 to 267 days.
 a 4 cent guy pays gear off in 191 to 230 days.

What's all this mean diff is going to go up some.

[1714247751]

1714247751

[1714247751]

1714247751

[stompix]

Bumping this cause I saw Phil reply on another topic... and we have liftoff!!!!!

Latest Block:   797958  (9 minutes ago)
Current Pace:   107.0267%  (1639 / 1531.39

expected, 107.61 ahead)

it was around 860 at that time so we're up 20 blocks in about ~24 hours.

So if this goes on like this and we don't have surprises in the two days left we're another ATH and a 3.4% on the previous, erasing completely the previous loss and keeping close to the 2% average growth. My weather app says continuous 36C in Houston and Dallas so I doubt this is caused by miners returning miners to normal hashing and more like completely new gear being turned on on top of whatever is still lingering at low settings.

Still 7 cents/th and probably we're going to be stuck like that. probably not even jumping to $45 would help break the 10 cents barrier as probably it will, trigger a dozen or so of exas to come back online.
It might be premature to call it, especially since is crypto and we all know how it goes, and on top of that, I have the habit of being wrong but is this a sign of the gold rush even though everyone was getting a shovel (asic) and digging to get rich finally ending and turning into the less thrilling mining where you look at annual reports in single digit profits rather than monthly ROI?

[philipma1957]

Bumping this cause I saw Phil reply on another topic... and we have liftoff!!!!!

Latest Block:   797958  (9 minutes ago)
Current Pace:   107.0267%  (1639 / 1531.39

expected, 107.61 ahead)

it was around 860 at that time so we're up 20 blocks in about ~24 hours.

So if this goes on like this and we don't have surprises in the two days left we're another ATH and a 3.4% on the previous, erasing completely the previous loss and keeping close to the 2% average growth. My weather app says continuous 36C in Houston and Dallas so I doubt this is caused by miners returning miners to normal hashing and more like completely new gear being turned on on top of whatever is still lingering at low settings.

Still 7 cents/th and probably we're going to be stuck like that. probably not even jumping to $45 would help break the 10 cents barrier as probably it will, trigger a dozen or so of exas to come back online.
It might be premature to call it, especially since is crypto and we all know how it goes, and on top of that, I have the habit of being wrong but is this a sign of the gold rush even though everyone was getting a shovel (asic) and digging to get rich finally ending and turning into the less thrilling mining where you look at annual reports in single digit profits rather than monthly ROI?

THERE IS A LOT OF MONEY out there in the world.

A lot.  BTC can easily go to 125k in two months and stay there.

that would be about 2.5 trillion cap.

Then miners will play catch up.

Or we can stay flat in price and miners will grind.

Look at gold from 1992 to 2002 it stayed in a 200-400 usd slot.

then in 2002 to 2011 it went from 300 to 1823

so the idea that BTC can do 6x in the next 9 years happened with gold.

If it does this mining will be chasing the price. Let's say we get to 5 watt gear by 2032 that means same power 4x the hash maybe more like 6x the hash we have now.

So I can see a diff of 2000EH maybe 2500EH by 2032. Hey want comes after EH? I see us there in under 10 years and I see us at over 125k in 10 years.

Frankly I am thinking buying coins may be better than mining. We seem to be going in that direction.

[mikeywith]

Frankly I am thinking buying coins may be better than mining. We seem to be going in that direction.

My thoughts exactly especially with the halving approaching, every halving is going to be more difficult than the previous one, it isn't just a 50% cut in rewards, the market size of BTC is getting larger and larger = harder to move, if the halving happens when BTC market size is 10 billion, then just adding an extra 10 billion to the market will offset the halving, when the halving happens while BTC is a 1 trillion market, to offset that halving you are going to need another trillion dollars injected to the market.

This is why mining profitability is in a downtrend, there are a few months where we get crazy ralles before difficulty catches up but those months don't make up more than 10-20% of the whole 4 year period, in fact, I could argue that buying coins has been probably better than mining for at least a year or two now, but one thing is more likely is the fact that mining post-2024 halving isn't going to work out well for most people.

In fact, when I think about it, if all the money I spent on mining gears and infrastructure was spent on BTC, I would be sitting on a fortune, I really doubt my 10PH is going to generate the same amount in BTC I spent over the past 7 years, I believe this applies to most people if they run the math again.

Mining is fun, you watch your capital grow, and still generate some income even during the bear market, but it's also way too risky, time-consuming, needs constant expansion to keep up with the difficulty and different market conditions, spare parts, cleaning, constant monitoring, I really doubt that all the effort will be offset by larger gains compared to just having bought BTC every time it had a 50-70% drop from an ATH.

[CryptoHFs]

Frankly I am thinking buying coins may be better than mining. We seem to be going in that direction.

Lol when I said that it turned into a fight https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5451020.0

[philipma1957]

Frankly I am thinking buying coins may be better than mining. We seem to be going in that direction.

Lol when I said that it turned into a fight https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5451020.0

Well setting up from nothing is not the same as meandering into it.

Also I can buy 10ph for 90k a box to run it for 35 k so it is 125k to do 10ph mine. Assuming I have power access.

125k gets me 4 coins.
As to what mining gets me
I can write the 125k off.
I can write the power off.
10 ph earns 7.29 coins from now to the ½ ing
it burns 310k-watts an hour or 225 usd a day. at 3 cent power.
That is 67500 usd by the ½ ing

So 2 coins well say 2.29 coins.

so 7.29-2.29 = 5 coin profit. after power.
and 1 coin profit after box and gear setup

So at the ½ ing I have 5 coins and I am ahead 1 full coin

buying coins I am at 4 coins.

SO with 3 cent power mine
with 6 cent power not as easy to choose.

[CryptoHFs]

Frankly I am thinking buying coins may be better than mining. We seem to be going in that direction.

Lol when I said that it turned into a fight https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5451020.0

Well setting up from nothing is not the same as meandering into it.

Also I can buy 10ph for 90k a box to run it for 35 k so it is 125k to do 10ph mine. Assuming I have power access.

125k gets me 4 coins.
As to what mining gets me
I can write the 125k off.
I can write the power off.
10 ph earns 7.29 coins from now to the ½ ing
it burns 310k-watts an hour or 225 usd a day. at 3 cent power.
That is 67500 usd by the ½ ing

So 2 coins well say 2.29 coins.

so 7.29-2.29 = 5 coin profit. after power.
and 1 coin profit after box and gear setup

So at the ½ ing I have 5 coins and I am ahead 1 full coin

buying coins I am at 4 coins.

SO with 3 cent power mine
with 6 cent power not as easy to choose.

How much of that 1 coin will be lost reselling the farm after the halving? It really doesn't worth the hassle.
I do now have access to 4 cents elec

[philipma1957]

Frankly I am thinking buying coins may be better than mining. We seem to be going in that direction.

Lol when I said that it turned into a fight https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5451020.0

Well setting up from nothing is not the same as meandering into it.

Also I can buy 10ph for 90k a box to run it for 35 k so it is 125k to do 10ph mine. Assuming I have power access.

125k gets me 4 coins.
As to what mining gets me
I can write the 125k off.
I can write the power off.
10 ph earns 7.29 coins from now to the ½ ing
it burns 310k-watts an hour or 225 usd a day. at 3 cent power.
That is 67500 usd by the ½ ing

So 2 coins well say 2.29 coins.

so 7.29-2.29 = 5 coin profit. after power.
and 1 coin profit after box and gear setup

So at the ½ ing I have 5 coins and I am ahead 1 full coin

buying coins I am at 4 coins.

SO with 3 cent power mine
with 6 cent power not as easy to choose.

How much of that 1 coin will be lost reselling the farm after the halving? It really doesn't worth the hassle.
I do now have access to 4 cents elec

So you are at a decent price point. four cents could work.

I will be honest mining is hard work.
But if I had four cent power near my home I would build the mine up to the power available.

At this point I am power capped at 210kwatts.

I am far from the mine. 3 hour round trip. Its work to keep it running.

But if you gave me a mine location 10 minutes away with 4 cent power I am in.

I can get 5 cent power and do 500kwatts in pennsylvania but it is four hours each way. That trip makes it not worth it.

[mikeywith]

I can get 5 cent power and do 500kwatts in pennsylvania but it is four hours each way. That trip makes it not worth it.

Need to count the cost for infrastructure as well, depending on where you live, if you need to buy the transformer yourself, the wiring, and everything else, the cost per gear is going to be pretty high if it's just a 500kw farm, I think at least 40-70k will have to be invested in the infrastructure (could be slightly lower or a lot higher depending on the labor and what's available).

If it was just a matter of shipping your gears to said location, plugging them in, and off they go, it would make things a lot easier, but having to build everything from the ground up is not easy, and depending on what type of gears you buy, the ROI in the infrastructure alone could take a few months to a year, could double your cost per th for all I know.

Mining is getting more and more difficult by the day, it will get to a point whereby even 3-4 cents won't make sense if it's not a very large operation, or at least if it's just a matter of transforming an existing factory/business to a mining farm whereby you only need to spend on cooling and the internal wiring as opposed of getting an empty land or just a building in the middle of nowhere that needs to a lot of money to become a proper mining farm.

This changes when we reach a point of price saturation, when BTC doesn't have a lot of potential to the upside, and investing in it starts yielding little to no profit, then the incentive to mine it instead might make more sense, but as it has always been and still stands, in most cases, buying just the coin is probably better in the long run.

Of course, tax law and the other "not so obvious" factors make things different from one person to another.

[philipma1957]

I can get 5 cent power and do 500kwatts in pennsylvania but it is four hours each way. That trip makes it not worth it.

Need to count the cost for infrastructure as well, depending on where you live, if you need to buy the transformer yourself, the wiring, and everything else, the cost per gear is going to be pretty high if it's just a 500kw farm, I think at least 40-70k will have to be invested in the infrastructure (could be slightly lower or a lot higher depending on the labor and what's available).

If it was just a matter of shipping your gears to said location, plugging them in, and off they go, it would make things a lot easier, but having to build everything from the ground up is not easy, and depending on what type of gears you buy, the ROI in the infrastructure alone could take a few months to a year, could double your cost per th for all I know.

Mining is getting more and more difficult by the day, it will get to a point whereby even 3-4 cents won't make sense if it's not a very large operation, or at least if it's just a matter of transforming an existing factory/business to a mining farm whereby you only need to spend on cooling and the internal wiring as opposed of getting an empty land or just a building in the middle of nowhere that needs to a lot of money to become a proper mining farm.

This changes when we reach a point of price saturation, when BTC doesn't have a lot of potential to the upside, and investing in it starts yielding little to no profit, then the incentive to mine it instead might make more sense, but as it has always been and still stands, in most cases, buying just the coin is probably better in the long run.

Of course, tax law and the other "not so obvious" factors make things different from one person to another.

I can drop a box next to a transformer pad.

I need a box and gear.
plus an electrical guy to do hook up.

I can get 95th s19s for 900 each.

But the four hour ride is a killer along with needing to be in a three person deal.

I don’t want the aggravation of dealing with more than one partnership with one other person.

I would go the route of buying used s19s.
one guy would want all new s19 xp
the third is the site owner and I am not sure if he is honest as I never worked with him.

and 100 s19s in a box is easy to steal.
so I do not want to do the deal.

The real killer is distance.

[philipma1957]

Last jump was big +6.4%

new  all time high for diff 53.9t

https://www.bitrawr.com/difficulty-estimator

Latest Block:   798531  (6 minutes ago)
Current Pace:   94.5690%  (196 / 207.26 expected, 11.26 behind)
Previous Difficulty:   50646206431058.09                           
Current Difficulty:   53911173001054.59                           
Next Difficulty:   between 51031673504483 and 53354244066408
Next Difficulty Change:   between -5.3412% and -1.0330%
Previous Retarget:   last Tuesday at 10:27 PM  (+6.4466%)
Next Retarget (earliest):   July 26, 2023 at 2:01 AM  (in 12d 17h 1m 37s)
Next Retarget (latest):   July 26, 2023 at 5:45 PM  (in 13d 8h 45m 12s)
Projected Epoch Length:   between 14d 3h 34m 10s and 14d 19h 17m 46s

Copy stats to clipboard

we are in grinding mode.

[stompix]

.....and we have liftoff!!!!!

And now we're having back to earth re-entry! Pace is just crazy, again some large family shutting down voluntarily?

Latest Block:   798934  (2 minutes ago)
Current Pace:   93.6802%  (599 / 639.41 expected, 40.41 behind)

And coming from another topic, I just saw that Binance is offering a presale on cloud mining plans
https://pool.binance.com/en/cloud
I can't find a way in which this shit would turn to be profitable compared to buying coins unless the US bans Bitcoin mining and the price stays the same despite that. Of course, I'm also pretty sure there are going to be a lot of customers for this, I don't doubt it a moment!

THERE IS A LOT OF MONEY out there in the world.

Yup, I can see that every day. What's 100 million for example?
https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/cleansparks-bitcoin-production-achieves-8-ehs-as-55m-expansion-goes-live-301876441.html

CleanSpark Inc. (Nasdaq: CLSK),  today announced that phase two of its mining campus in Washington, Georgia, is live. The site is expected to increase the Company's bitcoin mining compute power (or hashrate) by 1.8 exahashes per second (EH/s) to 8.5 EH/s, or over half of its 16 EH/s target for year-end. CleanSpark acquired the 36 MW campus along with existing infrastructure and machines for $25.1 million in August 2022, and has invested about $55 million on phase two – including construction, infrastructure, and machines – which is expected to increase the total power capacity to 86 MW. Including additional miners purchased and added to phase one, the total investment by the Company in the campus is over $100M and has already been fully funded.

Peanuts!

https://hut8.io/2023/06/26/hut-8-announces-us50-million-credit-facility/

Hut 8 Mining Corp. (Nasdaq | TSX: HUT) (“Hut 8” or the “Company”), one of North America’s largest, innovation-focused digital asset mining pioneers, and high performance computing infrastructure provider, announced today that, together with its subsidiary, Hut 8 Holdings Inc. (the “Borrower”), it has entered into a US$50 million credit facility (the “Credit Facility”) with Coinbase Credit, Inc., as lender.

Just 50 mils, peanuts!

[philipma1957]

Likely we will go to 0 or +1 by july 25/26

https://www.bitrawr.com/difficulty-estimator

Latest Block:   799174  (5 minutes ago)

Current Pace:   96.0226%  (839 / 873.75 expected, 34.75 behind)

Previous Difficulty:   50646206431058.09                            
Current Difficulty:   53911173001054.59                            
Next Difficulty:   between 51778561845155 and 52486263848230
Next Difficulty Change:   between -3.9558% and -2.6431%
Previous Retarget:   July 11, 2023 at 10:27 PM  (+6.4466%)
Next Retarget (earliest):   July 26, 2023 at 7:38 AM  (in 8d 7h 32m 53s)
Next Retarget (latest):   July 26, 2023 at 12:22 PM  (in 8d 12h 17m 31s)
Projected Epoch Length:   between 14d 9h 10m 25s and 14d 13h 55m 3s
Copy stats to clipboard

we wobbled a bit lower 59 blocks behind with 683 to go.

Latest Block:   799668  (11 minutes ago)

Current Pace:   95.7406%  (1333 / 1392.30 expected, 59.3 behind)

Previous Difficulty:   50646206431058.09                            
Current Difficulty:   53911173001054.59                            
Next Difficulty:   between 51622177739927 and 51874982020469
Next Difficulty Change:   between -4.2459% and -3.7769%
Previous Retarget:   July 11, 2023 at 10:27 PM  (+6.4466%)
Next Retarget (earliest):   Wednesday at 11:41 AM  (in 4d 21h 10m 54s)
Next Retarget (latest):   Wednesday at 1:24 PM  (in 4d 22h 53m 51s)
Projected Epoch Length:   between 14d 13h 13m 57s and 14d 14h 56m 53s

the drop makes me think heat and power is holding back a lot of hash.

I can see a big hash jump this fall.

60t easy maybe 70t by years end.

[mikeywith]

And now we're having back to earth re-entry! Pace is just crazy, again some large family shutting down voluntarily?

It's probably the heat waves and the overall profitability is pushing the lower-tier miners out of the game, with the current difficulty, even at 7 cents you are going to need S19 or the equivalent to make some profit, so all the 17 series are not making anything unless the power rate is way too cheap, in fact at 7 cents even the S19 make below a dollar a day, depending on what type of cooling and other expenses one might have those could be running at a loss already.

[philipma1957]

And now we're having back to earth re-entry! Pace is just crazy, again some large family shutting down voluntarily?

It's probably the heat waves and the overall profitability is pushing the lower-tier miners out of the game, with the current difficulty, even at 7 cents you are going to need S19 or the equivalent to make some profit, so all the 17 series are not making anything unless the power rate is way too cheap, in fact at 7 cents even the S19 make below a dollar a day, depending on what type of cooling and other expenses one might have those could be running at a loss already.

this epoch we did not have a miner fallout like oct 2018 to 2019.

china forced a big hash relocation in 2021 but it was not the same as the 2018-2019 fall and pause.

we are not at the six cent power point which did create the 2018-2019 diff drop and pause.

100 th makes 7 bucks.
at 30 watts it burns 75 kwatts  add 5 to cool and 80kwatts at 6 cents is 4.80 in power and cooling

thats 2.20 a machine .

say maintenance bla bla bla = 70 cents

So an s19 100th clears 1.50 usd

I think this means we grind up 🆙 once the heat passes.

What would make things interesting is if we do a 2015-2016 price move. in 2023 to 2024.

we would hit a 60k-70k number.  this would likely make fomo for gear. say oct-dec 2023

[stompix]

~snip

I wanted to ask a few days ago but I'm buzy traveling around, do you have any additional or lets call it insider info on this kuwait ban that has made the news?You're far more familiar with the stuff there, would this ban even if enforced bring some serious change to the diff or we're talking about max 1-2% ?
Kuwait had some real cheap energy and since they did go an call out a ban I suppose there were a few there.

[mikeywith]

~snip

I wanted to ask a few days ago but I'm buzy traveling around, do you have any additional or lets call it insider info on this kuwait ban that has made the news?You're far more familiar with the stuff there, would this ban even if enforced bring some serious change to the diff or we're talking about max 1-2% ?
Kuwait had some real cheap energy and since they did go an call out a ban I suppose there were a few there.

The ban will most likely be enforced, Kuwait is a small country and they have tight law enforcement, it would be close to impossible to keep any mining operation going, however, there is no clear numbers of hashrate in Kuwait, it is all but rumors, could be 1% or 5%, we can't  tell, according to the 2021 Cambridge study Kuwait had less than 1%, my guess it is higher now but not too high for the following reasons:

1- Cooling is difficult
2- No clear laws regarding mining and thus no serious large player would build large farms and risk all their money

So my guess is, there are many small farms that operate there ( below industrial threshold ) all combined won't be as large as a single U.S based mining farm.

[philipma1957]

https://www.bitrawr.com/difficulty-estimator
Latest Block:   800052  (10 minutes ago)

Current Pace:   96.1084%  (1717 / 1786.52 expected, 69.52 behind)

Previous Difficulty:   50646206431058.09                           
Current Difficulty:   53911173001054.59                           
Next Difficulty:   between 51818878540747 and 51863154121899
Next Difficulty Change:   between -3.8810% and -3.7989%
Previous Retarget:   July 11, 2023 at 10:27 PM  (+6.4466%)
Next Retarget (earliest):   Wednesday at 11:46 AM  (in 2d 3h 33m 6s)
Next Retarget (latest):   Wednesday at 12:03 PM  (in 2d 3h 51m 4s)
Projected Epoch Length:   between 14d 13h 18m 21s and 14d 13h 36m 18s
Copy stats to clipboard

399 blocks left maybe we get a decent -2 or -3 %

[philipma1957]

https://www.bitrawr.com/difficulty-estimator
Latest Block:   800052  (10 minutes ago)

Current Pace:   96.1084%  (1717 / 1786.52 expected, 69.52 behind)

Previous Difficulty:   50646206431058.09                            
Current Difficulty:   53911173001054.59                            
Next Difficulty:   between 51818878540747 and 51863154121899
Next Difficulty Change:   between -3.8810% and -3.7989%
Previous Retarget:   July 11, 2023 at 10:27 PM  (+6.4466%)
Next Retarget (earliest):   Wednesday at 11:46 AM  (in 2d 3h 33m 6s)
Next Retarget (latest):   Wednesday at 12:03 PM  (in 2d 3h 51m 4s)
Projected Epoch Length:   between 14d 13h 18m 21s and 14d 13h 36m 18s
Copy stats to clipboard

399 blocks left maybe we get a decent -2 or -3 %

Latest Block:   800362  (10 minutes ago)

Current Pace:   95.4827%  (11 / 11.52 expected, 0.52 behind)

Previous Difficulty:   53911173001054.59                            
Current Difficulty:   52328312063443.84                            
Next Difficulty:   between 51292788382350 and 52316817545918
Next Difficulty Change:   between -1.9789% and -0.0220%

Previous Retarget:   Today at 8:39 AM  (-2.9361%)

Next Retarget (earliest):   August 9, 2023 at 8:49 AM  (in 13d 22h 15m 10s)
Next Retarget (latest):   August 10, 2023 at 12:33 AM  (in 14d 13h 58m 33s)
Projected Epoch Length:   between 14d 0h 10m 22s and 14d 15h 53m 45s

so -2.9%

We had a power outage after a thunderstorm so I am a bit late.


Extra hot weather here in NJ. I have been turning gear off a few hours last few days.

Once we get past 35c or 95f we get various heating issues.

The step down transformer gets too hot 🥵
Voltage drops from 237 to 225
Room hot aisle struggles.

The main outdoor pad is a 400kva transformer.
It feeds to a 160kva transformer that steps power down to 240volts
It is about 1 cubic meter in size it is close to one of the intake fans for the room. So the 9000cfm fans begin feeding in hotter and hotter air yesterday to outside of the transformer got to 38c or 100f
The outside temps were only 92f
Voltage dropped 10 volts and room began to overheat.
I shut off 5 whatsminers about 15000 watts
I shut off 1 s19j pro about 3000 watts.

transformer cooled down
room cooled off.
at 2pm gear went off
at 9pm gear was put on.

I will be doing this for rest of july and all of august.
so 7 hours x 40 = 280 hours say 11 or 12 full days of shuting off 600th.

about 42 x 12 = 504 usd worth of btc will be lost 😡

[NotATether]

And coming from another topic, I just saw that Binance is offering a presale on cloud mining plans
https://pool.binance.com/en/cloud
I can't find a way in which this shit would turn to be profitable compared to buying coins unless the US bans Bitcoin mining and the price stays the same despite that. Of course, I'm also pretty sure there are going to be a lot of customers for this, I don't doubt it a moment!

The only entity who'll make profitable money off of this is Binance (and all the scammers who'll inevitably use their likeness to push cloud mining as "profitable" to more victims). It is well known that buyers aren't going to make a margin of profit off of any cloud mining product unless they run it for a long time and Binance doesn't screw them over by dropping the rewards later on.