(Unofficial) [ANN] Litecoin [LTC] to X11 algorithm hardfork

[AlexGR]

So if someone is a BTC holder and buys 10.000 LTC, intentionally, one block prior to the fork, and sells these 10.000 LTC back one block after the fork, then he'll suddenly have both his BTCs and the LTCs on the alternate fork.

Now, if and whenever some exchange adopts xLTC, then he'll have 10.000 LTC to spend / dump in the alternate fork. Yeah, I mean, what can possibly go wrong there... hmmm...  

I don't know much about hardforking and coding but this is bull.

There have been mandatory updates before that can kick you of the hardfork unless you upgrade.
It shouldn't be too hard.

Actually that's a different issue because we are really talking about two different coins where the LTC-x will have as "premine" the exact situation of the LTC blockchain up to block number <to be determined>.

Normal hardforks are one fork pulling ahead and making the other obsolete by virtue of 51% hashpower on the exact same network. There will be no hashpower competition in two different algorithm networks. What will be, is two different coins where one is trying to obsolete the other, but that will, in itself, be in a very vulnerable position for an economic attack.

Non-LTC stakeholders have nothing to lose by buying a few LTCs prior to the fork, cloning them automatically to the alternate fork which will use the same blockchain, selling the LTCs they bought on the main fork, and then waiting for a few months to see if LTC-x is ever adopted in some exchange so that they can dump the heck out of it with the cloned LTCs.

I predict GPU miners will do the same as they did 12 months ago: they left BTC when ASICs took over the network.
Now ASICs are taking over the LTC network and GPU LTC miners need a new coin to mine.

Hirocoin will be the next coin to watch. It doesn't sound as "black and illegal" as Darkcoin, so there will be no problems for shops to accept it.
I predicted the same for LTC 12 months ago and people told me I was crazy. Well... Who's crazy now?

proof: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=160300.0

X11 is the algo of 2014.

I'm a DRK / X11 fan as well, and I understand the miners love towards X11. Thing is, and LTC devs have a point there, if something is GPU mineable = it is ASICable. Whether it's X11, Scrypt, Scrypt-N etc etc. It's all the same really, except the price perhaps: X11 asics can be more affordable for regular people as they will require less ram - so the "ASICs are great for the network" and "X11 is actually easier to ASIC" combined with the higher mem prices = epic win through affordable X11 ASICs, instead of expensive-only-for-the-rich scrypt/scryptN asics

The time involved is probably not even 1 to 2 years, but more like a few months for designing and manufacturing. But right now, yes, X11 is practically ASIC-resistant as it doesn't have any ASICs chasing it down. And with electricity prices being what they are, and heat being an issue, X11 will probably be the summer choice for north hemisphere.

As for Hirocoin vs DRK, Hirocoin is competing in the transparent market vs other altcoins.

The transparent market is a monopoly right now of 10bn market cap value where Bitcoin is the undisputed leader. Darkcoin is creating a new market and providing a new choice: Do you want your transactions and your money to be tracked, or do you want privacy?

So, just as you have one shop and everyone goes there (100% market) and then another one opens and the marketshare is shifted towards the new choice, it's the same situation with Darkcoin.

By presenting a new choice, people will now be able to choose on whether they want public or private cryptocurrencies. If even 1% of the transparent market opts for privacy, we are talking about 100 mn market cap. If 10% goes for the private market, we are talking about a billion USD.

I don't know how Hirocoin, or any other plain altcoin can have a better "this is the coin to watch" prospect than DRK. The fundamentals are very strong.

[Beeker]

So if someone is a BTC holder and buys 10.000 LTC, intentionally, one block prior to the fork, and sells these 10.000 LTC back one block after the fork, then he'll suddenly have both his BTCs and the LTCs on the alternate fork.

Now, if and whenever some exchange adopts xLTC, then he'll have 10.000 LTC to spend / dump in the alternate fork. Yeah, I mean, what can possibly go wrong there... hmmm...  

I don't know much about hardforking and coding but this is bull.

There have been mandatory updates before that can kick you of the hardfork unless you upgrade.
It shouldn't be too hard.

Actually that's a different issue because we are really talking about two different coins where the LTC-x will have as "premine" the exact situation of the LTC blockchain up to block number <to be determined>.

Normal hardforks are one fork pulling ahead and making the other obsolete by virtue of 51% hashpower on the exact same network. There will be no hashpower competition in two different algorithm networks. What will be, is two different coins where one is trying to obsolete the other, but that will, in itself, be in a very vulnerable position for an economic attack.

Non-LTC stakeholders have nothing to lose by buying a few LTCs prior to the fork, cloning them automatically to the alternate fork which will use the same blockchain, selling the LTCs they bought on the main fork, and then waiting for a few months to see if LTC-x is ever adopted in some exchange so that they can dump the heck out of it with the cloned LTCs.

I predict GPU miners will do the same as they did 12 months ago: they left BTC when ASICs took over the network.
Now ASICs are taking over the LTC network and GPU LTC miners need a new coin to mine.

Hirocoin will be the next coin to watch. It doesn't sound as "black and illegal" as Darkcoin, so there will be no problems for shops to accept it.
I predicted the same for LTC 12 months ago and people told me I was crazy. Well... Who's crazy now?

proof: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=160300.0

X11 is the algo of 2014.

I'm a DRK / X11 fan as well, and I understand the miner's love towards X11. Thing is, and LTC devs have a point there, if something is GPU mineable = it is ASICable. Whether it's X11, Scrypt, Scrypt-N etc etc. It's all the same really, except the price perhaps: X11 asics can be more affordable for regular people as they will require less ram - so the "ASICs are great for the network" and "X11 is actually easier to ASIC" combined with the higher mem prices = epic win through affordable X11 ASICs The time involved is probably not even 1 to 2 years, but more like a few months for designing and manufacturing. Bur right now, yes, X11 is practically ASIC-resistant as it doesn't have any ASICs chasing it down. And with electricity prices being what they are, and heat being an issue, X11 will probably be the summer choice for north hemisphere.

As for Hirocoin vs DRK, Hirocoin is competing in the transparent market vs other altcoins.

The transparent market is a monopoly right now of 10bn market cap value where Bitcoin is the undisputed leader. Darkcoin is creating a new market and providing a new choice: Do you want your transactions and your money to be tracked, or do you want privacy?

So, just as you have one shop and everyone goes there (100% market) and then another one opens and the marketshare is shifted towards the new choice, it's the same situation with Darkcoin.

By presenting a new choice, people will now be able to choose on whether they want public or private cryptocurrencies. If even 1% of the transparent market opts for privacy, we are talking about 100 mn market cap. If 10% goes for the private market, we are talking about a billion USD.

I don't know how Hirocoin, or any other plain altcoin can have a better "this is the coin to watch" prospect than DRK. The fundamentals are very strong.

Please guys, keep this ontopic. It's not a HIC / DRK topic.

[AlexGR]

Please guys, keep this ontopic. It's not a HIC / DRK topic.

Yes, you are right: The question is really how can LTC-x coinholders be protected from the dumping that is possible from cloning LTCs of the main fork.

Let's say the fork is on 5th April 16:00 GMT.

1. On April 5, 15:00 GMT, I go on cryptsy, sell 10 BTC for 400 LTCs, send the 400 LTCs to my wallet.

2. 16:00 GMT- => Fork happens using the blockchain info up to that point.

3. On 17:00 GMT I send my 400 LTCs back to cryptsy and sell them for 10 BTCs. So I have my 10 BTCs back.

4. I now have 400 LTCs on the LTC-x fork which I'm ready to dump whenever it hits an exchange.

This is too exploitable.

[Beeker]

Please guys, keep this ontopic. It's not a HIC / DRK topic.

Yes, you are right: The question is really how can LTC-x coinholders be protected from the dumping that is possible from cloning LTCs of the main fork.

Let's say the fork is on 5th April 16:00 GMT.

1. On April 5, 15:00 GMT, I go on cryptsy, sell 10 BTC for 400 LTCs, send the 400 LTCs to my wallet.

2. 16:00 GMT- => Fork happens using the blockchain info up to that point.

3. On 17:00 GMT I send my 400 LTCs back to cryptsy and sell them for 10 BTCs. So I have my 10 BTCs back.

4. I now have 400 LTCs on the LTC-x fork which I'm ready to dump whenever it hits an exchange.

This is too exploitable.

No, it's not.

Your wallet and Cryptsy will be on the same hardfork at the same block, so you will end up with either 400 LTC or 10 BTC.
If Cryptsy isn't on the hardfork, then we didn't get all the big exchanges on the hardfork and there will be no hardfork.

As I said before, the hardfork is the easiest part of the project. It has been done before with other coins, changing specifications and/or algorithm.
Getting everyone over to the new algorithm is our challenge.

[AlexGR]

Please guys, keep this ontopic. It's not a HIC / DRK topic.

Yes, you are right: The question is really how can LTC-x coinholders be protected from the dumping that is possible from cloning LTCs of the main fork.

Let's say the fork is on 5th April 16:00 GMT.

1. On April 5, 15:00 GMT, I go on cryptsy, sell 10 BTC for 400 LTCs, send the 400 LTCs to my wallet.

2. 16:00 GMT- => Fork happens using the blockchain info up to that point.

3. On 17:00 GMT I send my 400 LTCs back to cryptsy and sell them for 10 BTCs. So I have my 10 BTCs back.

4. I now have 400 LTCs on the LTC-x fork which I'm ready to dump whenever it hits an exchange.

This is too exploitable.

No, it's not.

Your wallet and Cryptsy will be on the same hardfork at the same block, so you will end up with either 400 LTC or 10 BTC.
If Cryptsy isn't on the hardfork, then we didn't get all the big exchanges on the hardfork and there will be no hardfork.

As I said before, the hardfork is the easiest part of the project. It has been done before with other coins, changing specifications and/or algorithm.
Getting everyone over to the new algorithm is our challenge.

Yes, it's not doable really. Because it will literally require EVERYONE on board to work, otherwise it won't work. If I can buy LTC-scrypts prior to the fork and find even one exchange to sell them back after the fork, then I can have free LTCs for dumping on the LTC-x11 fork. And chances are there will be more than one exchange where I can sell back scrypt LTCs (actually chances are 95-100% of the exchanges will still operate with scrypt LTC).

The probability of every single BTC/LTC exchange to go with the LTC-x11 plan is so remote that it's not even funny. And with that probability goes away the chance to successfully do what you want to do.

This escalates from a democracy 51% percent, to a unanimous decision of 100% agreement (impossible).

[Beeker]

Please guys, keep this ontopic. It's not a HIC / DRK topic.

Yes, you are right: The question is really how can LTC-x coinholders be protected from the dumping that is possible from cloning LTCs of the main fork.

Let's say the fork is on 5th April 16:00 GMT.

1. On April 5, 15:00 GMT, I go on cryptsy, sell 10 BTC for 400 LTCs, send the 400 LTCs to my wallet.

2. 16:00 GMT- => Fork happens using the blockchain info up to that point.

3. On 17:00 GMT I send my 400 LTCs back to cryptsy and sell them for 10 BTCs. So I have my 10 BTCs back.

4. I now have 400 LTCs on the LTC-x fork which I'm ready to dump whenever it hits an exchange.

This is too exploitable.

No, it's not.

Your wallet and Cryptsy will be on the same hardfork at the same block, so you will end up with either 400 LTC or 10 BTC.
If Cryptsy isn't on the hardfork, then we didn't get all the big exchanges on the hardfork and there will be no hardfork.

As I said before, the hardfork is the easiest part of the project. It has been done before with other coins, changing specifications and/or algorithm.
Getting everyone over to the new algorithm is our challenge.

Yes, it's not doable really. Because it will literally require EVERYONE on board to work, otherwise it won't work. If I can buy LTC-scrypts prior to the fork and find even one exchange to sell them back after the fork, then I can have free LTCs for dumping on the LTC-x11 fork. And chances are there will be more than one exchange where I can sell back scrypt LTCs.

No, you can't.

[AlexGR]

No, you can't.

Ok, we'll see. I'll buy a few LTCs for dumping on the LTC-x fork and see who's right. Although what I'm mostly worried about is that not a single exchange will actually buy my cloned LTC-x's rather than not finding a single exchange to sell my scrypt LTCs.

[Raw-H]

Yes, it's not doable really. Because it will literally require EVERYONE on board to work, otherwise it won't work. If I can buy LTC-scrypts prior to the fork and find even one exchange to sell them back after the fork, then I can have free LTCs for dumping on the LTC-x11 fork. And chances are there will be more than one exchange where I can sell back scrypt LTCs.

No, you can't.

So this will be a new coin, like HiroCoin? LitecoinX11 (LTX) for example?

[hashnine]

Haha well said Beeker.
I like the attitude.

Fuck the ASIC investors. They are just here for the money.

Said the guy who invested into NXT coin.
Why invest into NXT if you are not here for money?

French hypocrisy, i know it because i'm french

[AlexGR]

A move like this would be the end of the cryptoworld because trust would be gone and no one buying any coin. It would demonstrate that a government or large corporation can take over any coin at will. Who knows who OP is working for if he would have any decency he would stand up like a men, not hide like a coward.

I think it will have the opposite effect, as it will prove that something like that is not doable.

It escalated from a democracy/51% situation to 100%-total-consensus-needed-to-succeed.

If even 1 exchange declines to shift, the LTC-x network will be vulnerable to an enormous dumping attack with cloned LTCs.

[2fresh]

just create "LTCx11", at least you'd have your own coin

[Raw-H]

just create "LTCx11", at least you'd have your own coin

Agreed, as this is not from the official devs it will create confusion and divide the camps in LTC. The poll being 60/30 is still a major difference.

[cryptodevil]

Why are people willing to support an idea by someone hiding behind somebody else's forum account?

They say that they are 'Hero' members which doesn't actually provide for anything of substance as, AFAIK, there are a number of different factors that go towards whether someone is granted that label and, besides which, why the fuck should we even believe that claim anyway?

If they are willing to lie about who they are, why should we then accept their claims as to their motivation being, supposedly, 'for the good of the community'? This isn't Gotham and they're not Batman.

FUD is piled up in stinking heaps all over this community on a regular basis, solely so that somebody, somewhere, can scalp somebody somewhere else and make off like a bandit. Why are so many people apparently willing to click 'you go girl' to the OP's vote when the OP isn't even willing to be honest about who they are and what's in it for them?

We complain vociferously, and rightly so, about the lying scumbag politcos and banksters, yet are willing to go face down and ass up for some anonymous shill with fancy X11 LTC icons and a big speech about how they're gonna do us this real big favour?


Shit, no wonder we're frequently considered to be a joke community of immature geeks playing at money.

[superresistant]

This isn't Gotham and they're not Batman.

How do you know ?

[cryptodevil]

Because if anybody wants to believe the OP is Batman, I've got a Nigerian Prince that wants to offer them an amazing scheme that will get them rich, and quick.

[rudius]

I m all for decentralized hashing power. What is the innovation of litecoin if not scrypt? Why people just rushed into it if not for being ASIC resistant?

But

- X11 is just another algo not famous enough to have his own ASIC. (btw my GPUs and me love X11, i will only mine it while waiting for something better)

- Hostile hardforking? I really don t think this is doable. You don t need the majority of the community to support this. You need all of it! Imagine an exchange doesnt support it. My understanding is that people who owns litecoin before the hardfork would be able to double spent it for bitcoins. Surely a good investment

- People need TRUST. If we want this sytem to succeed, trust is the way. Let free market play his role. I don t know why people could think that ASIC will lead the price to rise. On the contrary, i understand very well why it should plummet.


Be smart, and sell your litecoin. Every thing is open source as you have stated. There is a lot of other good coins on the rise which implement ASIC resistant algo. And since you are confortable with switching the algo for a live coin, i will submit this idea for a new coin.

Myriad got it right. Parallelized algos are a very good security for the network. You cannot have ASICs for all algos ( by now ), and so 51% of the hashing power will be very hard to obtain. If there is a flaw in one of the algo, it s just 20% of the hashing power.
While we cannot say for sure that a specific algo is ASIC proof, we know for sure that adaptability is ASIC proof. If we can modify the POW algo when we want, surely the manufacturers will stop making them.

So someone could implement the myriad's system with the possibility to adjust the share of every algo. When you want to harkfork, it s much simpler and smoother. The part of the old algo will decrease slowly and the part for the new algo will increase slowly until it reaches the target share of hashing power. This is not diruptive and just knowing that it is possible, manufacturers will stop making ASICs.

This is just an idea. I would love coding it but i m afraid that i don t have the skills for it. Hope you have!

With either way you choose, i wish you luck. But be smart!

[eCoinomist]

I like litecoin, let's hardfork it lol

[SpeedDemon13]

Great idea to keep LTC decentralized, X11 is a good candidate. There's a lot of more power efficient algos than Scrypt and Scrypt-N only is ASIC resistant but GPU hostile. Heavy, Blake, Fugue, INK and others are also a consideration too.

[Raw-H]

Great idea to keep LTC decentralized, X11 is a good candidate. There's a lot of more power efficient algos than Scrypt and Scrypt-N only is ASIC resistant but GPU hostile. Heavy, Blake, Fugue, INK and others are also a consideration too.

You do realize this is a hostile action towards Litecoin? The official devs aren't supporting this, nor is the whole community. They are trying to take over Litecoin and potentially damage the coin by splintering the litecoin community. Maybe after a few months litecoin isn't worth a nickle due to all the confusion being created by this.

[wtogami]

- Would you just switch algorithm again when ASIC is ever built for X11?

- yes, we would. And because of that, no company would take the risk to invest in building an ASIC for X11 unless another X11 coin (HIRO / DRK) becomes the second cryptocurrency

Glad someone will make centralized decisions like rule changes meant to scare people.  That inspires much confidence in the anonymous leadership.