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Author Topic: Potential Match Fixing involving Finnish teams FC Futura and Ilves-Kissat  (Read 2945 times)
LEVSKI7
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June 02, 2024, 12:52:06 AM
 #61

this is no stock exchange. they are copying pinnacle. what they write is complete nonsense. if finland finds out about this post it will condemn them
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June 02, 2024, 03:11:05 AM
 #62

@holeydarnkness

We discovered the account in a routine check. No other bookmaker has voided these bets as far as we know. We only heard/read, that some of these matches were regarded highly suspicous. But as there was no hard proof, they were graded.

We tagged the account as highly suspicious before we even discovered that the account actually belongs to an Ukrainian individual and that these players, who lost the match seemingly on purpose were also Ukrainian.

The market maker / counterparty in this bet  has actually hedged the bet we learnt, so he does not have to be compensated if arbitrator decides so. It would also be acceptable for us and the market maker, if we donated the 799mBTC to charity.  Just giving it back to the alleged criminal involved in match-fixing would be the wrong thing to do.


@efialtis

We only live off the commission. Our only incentive here is to keep our site clean and send a clear message to all scammers. That's also why our sites are invite-only.


The whole betting world would be better off, if 99.9% likelihood  that a certain user is a scammer would be sufficient to confiscate funds and send it to charity.  100% proof is often difficult to achieve.  

All things combined, we see a > 99.9% likelihood, that @newfish1 is somehow involved in betting fraud.



And we are still looking for an arbitrator.  It can be anyone with some online reputation in the sector. We reached out to Sportsbookreview. AskGamblers unfortunately refused.

If you are interested, please apply via vip@fairlay.com or in this thread.

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June 02, 2024, 03:59:46 AM
 #63

@holeydarnkness


We tagged the account as highly suspicious



THIS
if its highly suspicious already
why u are waiting that he won more to dot this
u could just suspend his account at the moment u tagged him as highly suspicious

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June 02, 2024, 05:43:03 AM
 #64

@holeydarnkness

We discovered the account in a routine check. No other bookmaker has voided these bets as far as we know. We only heard/read, that some of these matches were regarded highly suspicous. But as there was no hard proof, they were graded.

We tagged the account as highly suspicious before we even discovered that the account actually belongs to an Ukrainian individual and that these players, who lost the match seemingly on purpose were also Ukrainian.

The market maker / counterparty in this bet  has actually hedged the bet we learnt, so he does not have to be compensated if arbitrator decides so. It would also be acceptable for us and the market maker, if we donated the 799mBTC to charity.  Just giving it back to the alleged criminal involved in match-fixing would be the wrong thing to do.


@efialtis

We only live off the commission. Our only incentive here is to keep our site clean and send a clear message to all scammers. That's also why our sites are invite-only.


The whole betting world would be better off, if 99.9% likelihood  that a certain user is a scammer would be sufficient to confiscate funds and send it to charity.  100% proof is often difficult to achieve.  

All things combined, we see a > 99.9% likelihood, that @newfish1 is somehow involved in betting fraud.

ount tht

And we are still looking for an arbitrator.  It can be anyone with some online reputation in the sector. We reached out to Sportsbookreview. AskGamblers unfortunately refused.

If you are interested, please apply via vip@fairlay.com or in this thread.


Hilarious reply, really.
No other site voided or even flagged these games, only you.
And because you have the OPINION that something is wrong you confiscate over 55000$ from a player. For me this sounds like a scam to be honest.
You can't present any proof, just your opinion. That doesn't give you the right to take a player's money.
And coming around the corner with a "we would donate the amount" is even more ridiculous. This reminds me of the J4 poker controversy between Garrett Adelstein and Robbi Jade Lew. Suspicion, blaming and saying you would donate the amount that isn't rightfully yours.

You should seriously overthink what and how you are posting here because what you are writing doesn't do you any favours tbh.




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June 02, 2024, 06:39:55 AM
 #65

All things combined, we see a > 99.9% likelihood, that @newfish1 is somehow involved in betting fraud.

And we are still looking for an arbitrator.  It can be anyone with some online reputation in the sector. We reached out to Sportsbookreview. AskGamblers unfortunately refused.
All of that proof does paint a bad picture for the punter, but >99.9% likelihood of him being a scammer is inaccurate since this is just your opinion. There is a decent possibility that he is a legit punter with a megaton of bad luck.

An arbitrator is the only way to fully resolve this mess and I suggest contacting Pinnacle themselves in this context. Y'all are literally using their odds after all.

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June 02, 2024, 10:01:09 AM
 #66


The market maker / counterparty in this bet  has actually hedged the bet we learnt, so he does not have to be compensated if arbitrator decides so.


i ask for the nth time,

is the market maker in these bets Pinnacle ?
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June 02, 2024, 04:25:26 PM
 #67

...

If you're into charity, donate from your commission and not from people's winnings.
If you're into righteousness, build a church or whatever.

You're a betting platform so I hope I don't have to explain to you how the betting world works. You can't call something matchfixing simply because you don't like it.

The counterpart in this bet should not be compensated in any case considering that he lost the bet. What kind of idea is it to begin with?

If you want to protect yourselves and your players, maybe don't offer the possibility of betting crazy amounts on amateur sports? That would decrease your commission though, that's probably why it didn't cross your mind.

_____________________________________

This looks like a simple case of you needing to return funds to the player and it would be good for your business that you speed up the process of doing it.
You risk losing your reputation with the arguments you've provided so far.

I do support arbitrators (plural, not singular), but as I said - I don't think they are needed at all.

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June 02, 2024, 04:39:24 PM
 #68

@holeydarnkness


We tagged the account as highly suspicious



THIS
if its highly suspicious already
why u are waiting that he won more to dot this
u could just suspend his account at the moment u tagged him as highly suspicious



Simply because this suggestion and review regarding specific match is done after the match and not during the match since no one will spot this immediately during the game because there’s a lot of live sport games active at that time.

Usually, investigation is done after the match since they are not directly involved on that sports. They are just merely using that sports match to offer bets. What I find questionable with their action is why the other casino that suggested the match as highly suspicious still graded the match. Which means they are still not sure with their findings.

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June 02, 2024, 05:03:20 PM
 #69

...

If you're into charity, donate from your commission and not from people's winnings.
If you're into righteousness, build a church or whatever.

You're a betting platform so I hope I don't have to explain to you how the betting world works. You can't call something matchfixing simply because you don't like it.

The counterpart in this bet should not be compensated in any case considering that he lost the bet. What kind of idea is it to begin with?

If you want to protect yourselves and your players, maybe don't offer the possibility of betting crazy amounts on amateur sports? That would decrease your commission though, that's probably why it didn't cross your mind.

_____________________________________

This looks like a simple case of you needing to return funds to the player and it would be good for your business that you speed up the process of doing it.
You risk losing your reputation with the arguments you've provided so far.

I do support arbitrators (plural, not singular), but as I said - I don't think they are needed at all.

Pretty much what I said, I agree - I don`t get it and their response to my question didn`t explain it any better. We are talking about an exchange here and if they live off commissions purely, they couldn`t care less.

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June 02, 2024, 11:13:06 PM
 #70


The market maker / counterparty in this bet  has actually hedged the bet we learnt, so he does not have to be compensated if arbitrator decides so.


i ask for the nth time,

is the market maker in these bets Pinnacle ?

No

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June 02, 2024, 11:22:27 PM
 #71

@holeydarnkness


We tagged the account as highly suspicious



THIS
if its highly suspicious already
why u are waiting that he won more to dot this
u could just suspend his account at the moment u tagged him as highly suspicious




Just for clarification. All this happened on the same day. Tagged the account and blocked it, because the activity looked highly suspicious.  Most of the incriminating facts we mentioned earlier (including user's nationality, nationality of the team's players , former allegations against these teams, footage)  we were only discovering later that day.   And we rarely block accounts.  Anyway, we will wait for arbitrator's decision and will follow suit.

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June 03, 2024, 09:43:12 AM
 #72

I totally agree. As far as i am concerned, I feel that all the members of BitcoinTalk community mentioned here, that have replied in this thread, are worthy nominees for the panel. I have no objections.

I think we can proceed and confirm those panel members finally, if they are ok with it. I look forward to it.

Thank you.

I guess you should have mentioned them by name haha. efialtis and holydarkness already responded after you posted this, but I see at least 2 members I mentioned spoke up here earlier.

If you are interested, please apply via vip@fairlay.com or in this thread.

It shouldn't be people applying. It should be you and newfish1 together in this thread mentioning the names you would like to choose as arbitrators. And then they agree. Then it is open and transparent. People who are applying usually want something out of it Smiley

Kinda confusing now because nobody can tell who is actually the arbitrator and therefore needs to be given information.

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June 03, 2024, 09:59:42 AM
 #73

Fwiw, Fairlay might not be too happy choosing me since I pretty much gave my honest feedback already - and to be fair, I don`t think I have missed any important aspect.

Disclaimer: Honest feedback based on the information that was made available to this point

Disclaimer 3: I stated right from the beginning that I would not take payment just to share my 2 cents

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newfish1
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June 03, 2024, 11:19:15 AM
 #74

Fwiw, Fairlay might not be too happy choosing me since I pretty much gave my honest feedback already - and to be fair, I don`t think I have missed any important aspect.

Disclaimer: Honest feedback based on the information that was made available to this point

Disclaimer 3: I stated right from the beginning that I would not take payment just to share my 2 cents

Fairlay has reached out to you themselves. They cant back out now Wink

Plus, for sure they think they have some other valuable information they have not shared yet. As do I of course. The main piece of evidence (which will prove that I am correct here) was not shared by me yet.

Anyways, if you dont have an objection to it, we can consider you Member Number 1 of the arbitration panel, even if you dont want to be paid for it Wink

Can we? @efialtis
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June 03, 2024, 01:25:13 PM
 #75

this is the line movement of the match which was played on May 19

https://ecapper.ru/lc/event.php?id=7896011&t=handicap

the drop/rise of the lines happens at around minute 8, newfish placed his orders at minute 14 to 19.

in my opinion the gap between minute 8 and 14 is pretty huge to consider newfish had any inside info.
Option 1: newfish just got unlucky and placed bets on a fixed match.
Option 2: newfish is hunting for fixed matches which is also not forbidden.

In my opinion, fairlay didnt close the doors so they should honor is winnings, it is the bookies fault if they still take action on lines even though there is suspicious line movement
holydarkness
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June 03, 2024, 06:41:39 PM
 #76

@holeydarnkness

We discovered the account in a routine check. No other bookmaker has voided these bets as far as we know. We only heard/read, that some of these matches were regarded highly suspicous. But as there was no hard proof, they were graded.

We tagged the account as highly suspicious before we even discovered that the account actually belongs to an Ukrainian individual and that these players, who lost the match seemingly on purpose were also Ukrainian.

The market maker / counterparty in this bet  has actually hedged the bet we learnt, so he does not have to be compensated if arbitrator decides so. It would also be acceptable for us and the market maker, if we donated the 799mBTC to charity.  Just giving it back to the alleged criminal involved in match-fixing would be the wrong thing to do.
[...]

One question answered, that you cancelled the bets by your own initiative. May I know the answer to the second question? Under the basis of which rule do this decision carried out? I can't find any on your ToS and will highly appreciate if you can point us to it.

Just for clarification. All this happened on the same day. Tagged the account and blocked it, because the activity looked highly suspicious.  Most of the incriminating facts we mentioned earlier (including user's nationality, nationality of the team's players , former allegations against these teams, footage)  we were only discovering later that day.   And we rarely block accounts.  Anyway, we will wait for arbitrator's decision and will follow suit.

Those things, player's nationality and team's nationality, as well as former allegations against the team, are not necessarily correlative, let alone causative. Thus, I don't think that fact can be said as "incriminating" in the sense that it holds no weight, since it's hearsay at best. Unless you can produce an evidence of an established communication between newfish1 and other party [the insider].

Shortened, it brought us to my next question: where do you know that newfish1 know in advance of the outcome of the match? As I said previously, as well as what's pointed by others, his betting history seems show a normal bets, none being indicative that he knows about specific match.

Perhaps it's time for you to spill all of the evidence you have against him? Spare no mercy, go full throttle, YOLO and all.



[...]
Pretty much what I said, I agree - I don`t get it and their response to my question didn`t explain it any better. We are talking about an exchange here and if they live off commissions purely, they couldn`t care less.

They could, as evident by the existence of this thread, but they shouldn't.



Fairlay has reached out to you themselves. They cant back out now Wink

By this standard, then when you give your will, I am a part of that "team" too, given Fairlay also reached me as well.

Two things to note that will rather be familiar by those who follows my track on scam accusations board, "mediating" things between players and casinos, I don't take payment and I don't make the final call.

Payment, as I said numerous times [usually by those who accuse me of taking advantage of a case or being in the bed with the casinos], the benefit I get from getting those cases resolved are simply knowing that someone [be it the casino or the player, whoever actually the victim] get what's rightfully theirs, either the fund or a clean reputation.

Final call, because as I said to someone before, I don't have the wisdom of Solomon, who am I to make the final call? Who pass a judgment that other has to follow? Instead, as evident by my post history, I simply pushing for questions until things become clear and it become obvious to anyone who read which side is the victim.

That said, to eliminate any doubt that you specifically tailor your betting history on fairlay as a fail-safe, do you mind to provide your betting history of the same period from other platforms?

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FairlaySupport (OP)
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June 04, 2024, 03:12:32 AM
Last edit: June 04, 2024, 03:42:53 AM by FairlaySupport
 #77

Hi @holydarkness,

to answer your question from our Terms:

Users are forbidden to use FAIRLAY LLC platform for money laundering, betting fraud, match fixing, line manipulation or any other illegal activities.

FAIRLAY LLC reserves the right to refuse and to terminate any business relationship, and to cancel any operation of customers who do not comply with the requirements.

Sport markets (excluding horse racing) are settled according to the settlement rules of Pinnacle Sports LLC unless different rules are stated in the market description.   





So all settlement rules of Pinnacle Sports also apply, including provisions against  match fixing and similiar illegal activity.




Watching the videos of all matches we concluded, that at least two of the matches were fixed beyond all reasonable doubt and thus voided all wagers on these markets. We don't have to establish a link between newfish1 and some player.  It is sufficient to show, that the match was fixed.  Even bets from regular users, who bet on these markets by accident would be voided in that case. That is pretty much standard in the industry.  E-Sports matches are voided all the time because of suspicious activity for all users betting on it, though there is not always hard proof.

  




We were contacted by another party who was working for a Betting Integrity Unit and hopefully can help us find the best arbitrator with the necessary experience.







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June 04, 2024, 05:21:48 AM
Merited by efialtis (1)
 #78

snip


Ridiculous.
First you asked if somebody here would do the arbitration but now that you don't like their opinion about this you quickly moved away from it.
And it is still not a fixed match because of your opinion. Woo are you to decide if a match was fixed? Any expertise?
There are agencies that supervise games and they can make this conclusion, not you. Unless the games in question are officially flagged all you do here is accusing without proof/merit.

Also, I have serious doubt that betters who bet against the winning side also got refunded their wagers. Why I have doubt you may ask? Because you don't appear very trustworthy here.


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June 04, 2024, 10:09:55 AM
 #79

By this standard, then when you give your will, I am a part of that "team" too, given Fairlay also reached me as well.

Of course, i have no objection.

So for now, we have two members of the panel

efialtis (Gosubetting.com)
holydarkness

we need one more and we are ready to go.
holydarkness
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June 04, 2024, 06:11:41 PM
 #80

Hi @holydarkness,

to answer your question from our Terms:

Users are forbidden to use FAIRLAY LLC platform for money laundering, betting fraud, match fixing, line manipulation or any other illegal activities.

FAIRLAY LLC reserves the right to refuse and to terminate any business relationship, and to cancel any operation of customers who do not comply with the requirements.

Sport markets (excluding horse racing) are settled according to the settlement rules of Pinnacle Sports LLC unless different rules are stated in the market description.

So all settlement rules of Pinnacle Sports also apply, including provisions against  match fixing and similiar illegal activity.

Thank you for this.

Watching the videos of all matches we concluded, that at least two of the matches were fixed beyond all reasonable doubt and thus voided all wagers on these markets. We don't have to establish a link between newfish1 and some player.  It is sufficient to show, that the match was fixed.  Even bets from regular users, who bet on these markets by accident would be voided in that case. That is pretty much standard in the industry.  E-Sports matches are voided all the time because of suspicious activity for all users betting on it, though there is not always hard proof. [...]

Yet you're the one who previously said it's the most incriminating facts. So which one is it? The link doesn't matter that you don't have to establish it [and prove it's existence], or it is the most incriminating that it became the reason why newfish1 faced this current situation?



By this standard, then when you give your will, I am a part of that "team" too, given Fairlay also reached me as well.

Of course, i have no objection.

So for now, we have two members of the panel

efialtis (Gosubetting.com)
holydarkness

we need one more and we are ready to go.

Nope, I'm pretty much sure fairlay just voted efialtis and me out,

[...]
We were contacted by another party who was working for a Betting Integrity Unit and hopefully can help us find the best arbitrator with the necessary experience.

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