Armed Feds Prepare For Showdown With Nevada Cattle Rancher

[solarion]

We're talking about the deliberate slaughter of nearly 3000 humans in New York city. If you believe as I do that this was yet another false flag attack, then how are the militia guys loons?

Among the reasons, they tend to believe certain things fundamentally and completely and don't see a need to explore things beyond something they choose to believe.  Or are told to believe in most cases.  Most of them really don't seem to have the basic skill-set to do otherwise.

I, of course, didn't believe anything other than what was initially presented about the 9/11 events (though from knowing something about demolishion I was thoroughly surprised that the collapses happened at all when the three buildings came down later that day.)

A few weeks after the event some French guy produced some photos which were of the Pentagon part of the event which piqued my interest since it was pretty clear that if the images were not totally fake, there was no way a commercial airliner hit the building.  From there I exposed myself to a lot of information that people were producing (much of it rubbish.)  By this time I am quite confident that the event was engineered.  It is simply hands down the strongest explanation for all of the observations across the physical and political spectrum.

Much of the Snowden material which was leaked had been leaked in dribs and drabs prior to Snowden himself.  It fit into a body of 'conspiracy theories' which I considered neither true nor false but worthy of analysis.  Once such element of that body is that there is has been for some time an active program of deception using various staged events.  Some of the techniques are borrowed from Hollywood which is on the forefront of making fictional things seem realistic, and the media which who's job it is to present the public with things that they are supposed to be believing.

We do not really know that 'nearly 3000 people' died in the events of 9/11.  That event has gone amazingly unstudied by either government bodies, the court system, or mainstream media.  I've no doubt that some people died, but...

...lets say that 3000 Americans died on 9/11.  It was clear that that many were going to die in an adventure such as Iraq, and many more than that would be maimed.  And that's not even counting Iraqis.  Yet our leadership did everything to enter the adventure anyway in spite of having to know that the excuses for going (Saddam's threat to us) were complete and utter bullshit.  So, the people in leadership positions are demonstrably willing to sacrifice many American lives to achieve a political objective.

You are saying that because 3000 lives were lost that proves that 9/11 could not be a false flag.  Period.  End of story. I'm saying it's not that clear-cut to me in the mode which I think.

What? I said nothing of the sort.

I'm saying that because it WAS a false flag committed on such a grand scale and in such an audacious manner, that the militia guys hardly seem like loons to me for reacting the way they have since and I'm trying to get at why you seem to think they're loons if you agree that 9/11 was an inside job.

[tvbcof]

...
You are saying that because 3000 lives were lost that proves that 9/11 could not be a false flag.  Period.  End of story. I'm saying it's not that clear-cut to me in the mode which I think.

What? I said nothing of the sort.

I'm saying that because it WAS a false flag committed on such a grand scale and in such an audacious manner, that the militia guys hardly seem like loons to me for reacting the way they have since and I'm trying to get at why you seem to think they're loons if you agree that 9/11 was an inside job.

Ah, that makes more sense.  It seemed wildly inconsistent that you would believe all that you profess to believe about the central govt yet have that attitude about 9/11.  So lemme explain:

Firstly, as I mentioned before, in the scheme of things relative to historic actions, 9/11 was 'no big deal'.  This is even more the case if some parts of the actual human damage component were a fabrication.  It was whipped up into the biggest event in world history, but that would be what one would expect given the goals of the project.

As I've stated before, and a point we seem to disagree on, I see the government (all branches and levels) as being a vast majority just normal and decent people.  There is no need to watch them all as you've suggested, because there is nothing to find.

In the case of 9/11, I think it could be achieved by maybe a few dozen people who are formally 'in the government'.  After the event many more people would need to be hooked into the loop, but at that point what real choice do they have?  Even if they would not have supported it, the deed was done and the most common sense path forward was to make the best of it and keep one's mouth shut.  A larger number probably did see the utility of the project.  I can make a pretty strong argument that our nation is better prepared for the 2000's due to actions made possible by the 9/11 event (though I'll not completely agree with the arguments and will have counter-arguments.)

Since I am not a fundamentalist I have no real problem supporting the people and projects of the federal governments which make sense.  Most of their projects and org structures and so on actually do make sense to me.  And I expect that some decent fraction of federal government employees would do the right thing in the right set of circumstances.  (I hope so at least and I am sort of counting on it.)

As I've alluded to, I see the future as probably having an abrupt step function event.  I see it as a losing strategy to do much of anything except engage in certain kinds of preparation prior to such an event.  It's what happens after such an event that will be the defining factor in how our history is written.

[solarion]

Ah, that makes more sense.  It seemed wildly inconsistent that you would believe all that you profess to believe about the central govt yet have that attitude about 9/11.  So lemme explain:

Firstly, as I mentioned before, in the scheme of things relative to historic actions, 9/11 was 'no big deal'.  This is even more the case if some parts of the actual human damage component were a fabrication.  It was whipped up into the biggest event in world history, but that would be what one would expect given the goals of the project.

As I've stated before, and a point we seem to disagree on, I see the government (all branches and levels) as being a vast majority just normal and decent people. There is no need to watch them all as you've suggested, because there is nothing to find.

...actually you're the one who suggested that.

As the owners of the land, we citizens have the right and obligation to keep an eye on our employees (the Feds being one of them) so they don't rob the till.

In the case of 9/11, I think it could be achieved by maybe a few dozen people who are formally 'in the government'.  After the event many more people would need to be hooked into the loop, but at that point what real choice do they have?  Even if they would not have supported it, the deed was done and the most common sense path forward was to make the best of it and keep one's mouth shut.  A larger number probably did see the utility of the project.  I can make a pretty strong argument that our nation is better prepared for the 2000's due to actions made possible by the 9/11 event (though I'll not completely agree with the arguments and will have counter-arguments.)

Since I am not a fundamentalist I have no real problem supporting the people and projects of the federal governments which make sense.  Most of their projects and org structures and so on actually do make sense to me.  And I expect that some decent fraction of federal government employees would do the right thing in the right set of circumstances.  (I hope so at least and I am sort of counting on it.)

As I've alluded to, I see the future as probably having an abrupt step function event.  I see it as a losing strategy to do much of anything except engage in certain kinds of preparation prior to such an event.  It's what happens after such an event that will be the defining factor in how our history is written.

Your stance seems very bizarre. Pretty much a "whatever, so what if .gov wants to smoke a few buildings in NY with people in them." Shit happens.

Also  you didn't address the actual question about why you think the militia guys are "loons" given the events that have transpired. Is it your position that everyone should just remain calm and cerebral while federals slaughter people in American cities en masse, use it for the basis for global war(conducted against nation states not even accused of attacking us), and steal Constitutionally protected rights? You do realize not everyone drinks fluoride all day and night right? Some guys get downright annoyed when walmart greeters turned TSA Nazis grope their wives and children at nonsensical airport checkpoints.

[scottsecret]

The guy is a freeloading bum.  Give me a place to run 900 head of cattle without paying any taxes/fees.  He's not a hero, he just manipulated a bunch of tools to come out and support him.

[tvbcof]

...
Also  you didn't address the actual question about why you think the militia guys are "loons" given the events that have transpired. Is it your position that everyone should just remain calm and cerebral while federals slaughter people in American cities en masse, use it for the basis for global war(conducted against nation states not even accused of attacking us), and steal Constitutionally protected rights? You do realize not everyone drinks fluoride all day and night right?

You've stated my position better than even I could!  My position is that everyone should remain calm and cerebral.  I only hope that people do not close their minds to things just because they are unpleasant.  Rather, they analyze things and choose the best course of action noting that there are some significant challenges ahead.

Flying into some (probably adversary induced) tizzy and hurdling a large majority of people directly into the arms of the adversary for protection is exactly NOT the right thing to do.  It is 'lunacy'.

[solarion]

The guy is a freeloading bum.  Give me a place to run 900 head of cattle without paying any taxes/fees.  He's not a hero, he just manipulated a bunch of tools to come out and support him.

No doubt the culmination of many hours of exhaustive research on the subject.

[scottsecret]

The guy is a freeloading bum.  Give me a place to run 900 head of cattle without paying any taxes/fees.  He's not a hero, he just manipulated a bunch of tools to come out and support him.

No doubt the culmination of many hours of exhaustive research on the subject.

You'd be a bigger fool than the tools who showed up if you spend hours researching this guy's situation.  Everyone wants something for free.  900 cattle is near a million dollars.  I wish I had free land like that around here to use.  Who wouldn't ?

[solarion]

Point taken. Fools do research before posting. Got it.

[scottsecret]

Point taken. Fools do research before posting. Got it.

You can also do a lot of research and still be wrong because of your own internal biases you are not aware of.

I read multiple articles/videos.  The guy is just a typical entitled american with a bit more brains than the rest because he was able to manipulate the idiots to rally behind his cause.


I'd fight for him too... If I was under the impression I'd be able to ranch 900 head of cattle on government land without even paying ag-use property taxes.

This country has too many f***ing freeloaders.

[bryant.coleman]

The guy is a freeloading bum.  Give me a place to run 900 head of cattle without paying any taxes/fees.  He's not a hero, he just manipulated a bunch of tools to come out and support him.

Do you have any evidence to prove that he didn't paid his taxes? And what about the $640 million fine imposed upon him by the Bureau of Land Management? Don't you think that is way too excessive?

[tvbcof]

You can also do a lot of research and still be wrong because of your own internal biases you are not aware of.
...

I just read an amusing article on Forbes about 'sovereign citizens'.  The description of their 'research' matches very well what I've seen on this thread and in other venues over the decades.

Now, of course, Forbes is the epitome of propaganda for the general public.  They would like to get me all riled up about the dangerous menace of 'sovereign citizens', but I'm not buying it.  I know how these people think (erratically) and how popular their ideas are going to be in any conceivable social grouping.  That is, not very.  They'll be marginalized immediately.  But I'm not the audience that the Forbes's of our world targets and I've no doubt that their propaganda will be highly effective.

If the 'sovereign citizen' bunch were a little more 'cerebral' maybe they wouldn't stick their heads directly into the trap.  Oh well.

---

I do have some concerns about 'sovereign citizens' in that it is logically consistent (in a twisted way) that if someone is 'sovereign' then they can work for some other group (like the Feds) as mercenaries of sorts.  In this way they can enjoy goodies which make them happy (e.g., free ammo) with a clear conscience.

Of course different people have different tastes.  Our friend Annoyneymint, for instance, might enjoy an endless supply of free wives from a pool of the adolescent daughters captured from 'the Communists.'

[scottsecret]

The guy is a freeloading bum.  Give me a place to run 900 head of cattle without paying any taxes/fees.  He's not a hero, he just manipulated a bunch of tools to come out and support him.

Do you have any evidence to prove that he didn't paid his taxes? And what about the $640 million fine imposed upon him by the Bureau of Land Management? Don't you think that is way too excessive?

I believe he readily acknowledges not paying the land fees ?  Says he'll pay NV if they'd bill him.  IMO just an excuse.  All bums have excuses/rationalizations for their behavior.  Some are reasonable, some are nonsensical.  I get it though, no one wants to pay taxes. 

All sources I have seen that mention fines, none of them approach $640 million.  So I have no clue what you are referring to, but yes that would be excessive if true.

[solarion]

You can also do a lot of research and still be wrong because of your own internal biases you are not aware of.
...

I just read an amusing article on Forbes about 'sovereign citizens'.  The description of their 'research' matches very well what I've seen on this thread and in other venues over the decades.

Now, of course, Forbes is the epitome of propaganda for the general public.  They would like to get me all riled up about the dangerous menace of 'sovereign citizens', but I'm not buying it.  I know how these people think (erratically) and how popular their ideas are going to be in any conceivable social grouping.  That is, not very.  They'll be marginalized immediately.  But I'm not the audience that the Forbes's of our world targets and I've no doubt that their propaganda will be highly effective.

If the 'sovereign citizen' bunch were a little more 'cerebral' maybe they wouldn't stick their heads directly into the trap.  Oh well.

---

I do have some concerns about 'sovereign citizens' in that it is logically consistent (in a twisted way) that if someone is 'sovereign' then they can work for some other group (like the Feds) as mercenaries of sorts.  In this way they can enjoy goodies which make them happy (e.g., free ammo) with a clear conscience.

Of course different people have different tastes.  Our friend Annoyneymint, for instance, might enjoy an endless supply of free wives from a pool of the adolescent daughters captured from 'the Communists.

I thought sovereigns were men and women that didn't accept the creepy 14th amendment to the Constitution as valid and reject the notion that they're "persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof".

The legal definition of the word "person" is rather disturbing.

person n. 1) a human being. 2) a corporation treated as having the rights and obligations of a person. Counties and cities can be treated as a person in the same manner as a corporation. However, corporations, counties and cities cannot have the emotions of humans such as malice, and therefore are not liable for punitive damages. (See: party, corporation)

[AnonyMint]

tvbcof rambles on about process (ignoring the upthread post I made documenting how the NV constitution not agreeing with the US constitution was due to political corruption) while ignoring the fundamental right of the sovereign individual. And still hasn't proposed a single solution for the creeping enslavement of the world in corrupt political process.

There is no solution that these Socialists can offer because they disrespect "renewing the tree of liberty by spilling some blood" which our forefathers told us would be necessary. They will ride the Titanic political corruption down to the bottom of the abyss. I have my popcorn ready. It won't be long now. Just a few more years before I can laugh at them wallowing in pain caused by political process corruption.

There is no way to reason with Socialist and Communist pigs. They actually believe they are more civilized. They are even under the delusion and think they are winning the debate. They are very proud of themselves. So let them kill themselves. Just opt-out of their system.

The solution for this will soon be available.


P.S. they never learn. They will erroneously blame their suffering on the militias, on Russia, on China, on N. Korea, etc.. instead of blaming themselves for not standing up for the sovereign individual and instead supporting collective slavery.

The guy is a freeloading bum.  Give me a place to run 900 head of cattle without paying any taxes/fees.

Amazing the slaves even think they are supposed to pay taxes and fees for using land. They actually demand to be slaves.

They would be very uncomfortable the coming post-resource scarcity world that I am helping to create.

I am bored with these small minds. I don't sweat the little things. There are bigger fish to fry.

[scottsecret]

The guy is a freeloading bum.  Give me a place to run 900 head of cattle without paying any taxes/fees.

Amazing the slaves even think they are supposed to pay taxes and fees for using land. They actually demand to be slaves.

They would be very uncomfortable a post-resource scarcity world.

I'm just asking to be given a place to raise 900 head of cattle for free too. 

Your rancher hero wouldn't be near as comfortable either in a "post-resource scarcity" world.  Who protects him from someone coming in there and killing him and taking what they want ?  He isn't patrolling all that property for cattle thieves.  Talk all you want, but the guy relies on all sorts of government protection.  Sword cuts both ways.  Government protects those with capital far more than it protects the poor and landless.

You live in a nonsensical world.  A true slave to your delusions.

[AnonyMint]

I'm just asking to be given a place to raise 900 head of cattle for free too.

Go visit Bundy. If you are sincere, and I bet he will put you to work. I bet you will soon realize it is a lot more work than your city-slicker lazy ass is capable of.

Point is you haven't been out there for the past 70+ years sweating you ass off in the desert. I have lived in West Texas. It is not easy.

You fucking jealous Communists never want any one to be sovereign, because you want everyone to be a slave, so that no one can have anything that you don't get to take part of.

[scottsecret]

I'm just asking to be given a place to raise 900 head of cattle for free too.

Go visit Bundy. If you are sincere, and I bet he will put you to work. I bet you will soon realize it is a lot more work than your city-slicker lazy ass is capable of.

Point is you haven't been out there for the past 70+ years doing this.

You fucking jealous Communists never want any one to be sovereign, because you want everyone to be a slave, so that no one can have anything that you don't get to take part of.

Stupid fucking clown, I had to deal with cattle just today.  My internet comes beamed off the top of a chain of water towers.  There is no landline or municipal water.

Unfortunately I have to pay property taxes or I get a lien on the place.

Yea, I want to go work for a bum.  Go fuck yourself and log off permanently so the average IQ of this place can go back up a few points.

Everyone in this country feels so goddamn entitled.

Guy calls people "slaves" them tells them to go work for a societal mooching bum.    Maybe you aren't a clown, maybe your big red nose is from drinking ?

[AnonyMint]

The guy is a freeloading bum.  Give me a place to run 900 head of cattle without paying any taxes/fees.

Amazing the slaves even think they are supposed to pay taxes and fees for using land. They actually demand to be slaves.

They would be very uncomfortable a post-resource scarcity world.

I'm just asking to be given a place to raise 900 head of cattle for free too.

You fools lack basic education. Learn some basic economics or STFU.

http://armstrongeconomics.com/2014/04/23/the-two-most-dangerous-idea/

There are two ideas that have been responsible for killing more people than anything in history and they both came from the French elite. The first was the idea that land was wealth. This was propagated by the Physiocrats who argued agriculture was the wealth of a nation. Adam Smith’s Wealth of Nations was a direct response to that idea showing that the true wealth of a nation was its people and its total productivity.

Productivity is what we pay for. Not for land.

Utter fools. They don't even teach you fools anything useful in these state schools.

[scottsecret]

I'm just asking to be given a place to raise 900 head of cattle for free too.

You fools lack basic education. Learn some basic economics or STFU.

http://armstrongeconomics.com/2014/04/23/the-two-most-dangerous-idea/

There are two ideas that have been responsible for killing more people than anything in history and they both came from the French elite. The first was the idea that land was wealth. This was propagated by the Physiocrats who argued agriculture was the wealth of a nation. Adam Smith’s Wealth of Nations was a direct response to that idea showing that the true wealth of a nation was its people and its total productivity.

Productivity is what we pay for. Not for land.

Utter fools. They don't even teach you fools anything useful in these state schools.

You really are an idiot.  If I had access to the acreage your hero does and didn't have to pay taxes life would be an utter walk in the park and I'd live quite comfortably.

You've been proven wrong on multiple fronts, so you dig up some obscure bullshit no one gives a shit about.  You are a nutjob and I just noticed the ignore button by your name.

[AnonyMint]

If I had access to the acreage your hero does and didn't have to pay taxes life would be an utter walk in the park and I'd live quite comfortably.

Thanks for proving all my points about jealously and ignorance. (Calling Adam Smith's seminal work the Wealth of Nations idiotic is really egregious dumb ego)

To all those who don't want to sink with the Titanic. The above is what you are up against. 75% of the people think that way.

Your only chance to survive is to opt-out. Make sure you locate the only solution for that.

P.S. Bundy is fighting for local governance, not for free land. You Communist twist the argument to suit your aims in order to destroy local sovereignty. Your only proposed non-solution is for federal process to try to restore local sovereignty. What a crock of shit.