Ethnic cleansing in Ukraine.

[keymone2]

"it was Putin that annexed Crimea" - Wrong. Crimean. voted for independence. The second time in the last 20 years after they undemocratically got transferred to Ukraine in 1965. Then they voted to rejoin Russia.

By they way, why not continue you "people of Ukraine" line of thought?

It was people of Ukraine that got appalled by the nationalistic coup government that snuck to power under the guise of the people of ukraine's protests. They protested again in Odessa, and got burnt down alive. People of Ukraine in the east protested against Apartheid-like changes to constitution aimed against Russian population done by the coup government, and came out in protest, to be met by shooting, so they were forced to take to arms to defend themselves.

But, of course, according to your heroes, the people of Ukraine living in the East, are subhuman and can be freely exterminated.

Also: " corrupt and criminal president Yanukovich". And Poroshenko is not a "corrupt and criminal"? He was the minister of Finances under Yanukovich. What happened in Ukraine was an oligarchic shift of power with a tinge of brown Nazism.

"Crimean. voted for independence." Wrong. Putin ordered his army to capture Crimean parliament, parliament "elected" a marginally supported politician(4% on last elections) to be premier minister, premier minister ordered to organize "referendum" in less than month time, a referendum which had 2 questions "join russia now" / "join russia later" and no question "leave things as they are".

"nationalistic coup government" put names to your labels please, both interim government and current government do not have any representatives from far-right parties, parliament is the same as was elected years ago - who exactly are those "nazis" (because you really mean nazis and not nationalists as those are different things) you are talking about?

"They protested again in Odessa, and got burnt down alive" people died in fire after shooting some other people on streets and running away hiding in a building. horrible sutiation no matter what side you're on. there were some horrible people on both sides of a conflict. yet claiming this was a plan of ukrainian government is just an ungrounded conspirological bullshit.

"Apartheid-like changes to constitution" proof of that or admit you have no clue or admit you're here to spread propaganda. i'll give you a link: rada.gov.ua - this is all the laws passed by all the parliaments in ukraine, please find me one that you consider apartheid-like.

"came out in protest, to be met by shooting, so they were forced to take to arms to defend themselves" this is interesting, give me timeline of these events because i do know about protests in most big eastern cities in early days when most news were about annexation of crimea but i didn't hear about protesters being shot. on the other hand there were numerous reports of pro-ukrainian activists kidnapped and later found dead and tortured like this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GX2zQRGx50I

"according to your heroes" you don't know who my heroes are and anyone claiming someone to be subhuman is wrong, i hope we can get this thing off the table and i won't have to repeat myself

"And Poroshenko is not a corrupt and criminal?" current consensus as was shown by the proper democratic and fair elections (of course in some regions it was not possible to provide safety because terrorists did everything so that people couldnt vote) Poroshenko is less corrupt and less criminal. and really it would be hard to find someone worse than Yanukovich - i hope you're not going to dispute that. personally i didn't vote for him and think there were other "lesser evil" candidates but people of ukraine voted and it is first time in history that one candidate won in every region of ukraine.

"What happened in Ukraine was an oligarchic shift of power" this i can agree with and i don't know why you think it is so bad. the sad thing is there is no way in Ukraine or in Russia someone can come to power without being oligarch or without being backed by oligarchs. that does not mean we should not fight against those who are abusing power beyond any reasonable boundary, don't you agree?

"with a tinge of brown Nazism" and then you had to go full-retard. i urge you to show me evidence that interim or current government of ukraine are supporting nazi ideas and if you can't i ask you to stop repeating this bullshit label because it is not contributing anything to the discussion.

the fact that there are far-right parties in Ukraine does not mean nazism has taken over. far right parties are everywhere including russia and europe and they have much more support from population than in ukraine (1.8% in last elections).

the fact that far-right parties are active in all sorts of protests is also not surprising. however having couple hundred far-right party members and maybe even up to a hundred full-retard nazis with hitler tattoos on their penises - can not discredit a whole movement against abuse of power.

and how do you explain numerous nazis that are fighting for novorossiya? one of leaders Gubarev: http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/nazi-donetsk.jpg or this brave rebel: http://proxy10.media.online.ua/uol/r2-fdab3695f0/53bde59defc12.jpg ?

nazism is a really convenient label that you can blame on anyone and degrade discussion to level of "you're nazi - no you're nazi". if your goal is to do that - then just say it?

[Nemo1024]

Just one question first: Why did the Communist party had to be banned? Only because they were asking the wrong questions?
Does the name Jarosh ring a bell? He is part of the new Ukrainian order and as brown as you can get.
What about changes to the constitution, reverting it back to the previous version, stripping the already meagre rights for Russian language use.
As for sub-humans, I base it on the statements by Farion, Tomishenko, Boutkevitch, Jarosh.

"Crimean. voted for independence." Wrong. Putin ordered his army to capture Crimean parliament, parliament "elected" a marginally supported politician(4% on last elections) to be premier minister, premier minister ordered to organize "referendum" in less than month time, a referendum which had 2 questions "join russia now" / "join russia later" and no question "leave things as they are".

Um, the second question was "for reinstatement of constitution of 1992". Also, what do you have to say to the results of the later American Gallup opinion evaluation, which reinforced the results from the referendum? Rigged as well, this time by the US?

Also, what happened now in Crimea is much more democratic, than the outcome of the 1993 referendum, that was nullified by Kiev, or the transfer of 1965, that happened against the public wishes (this public and their children still live in Crimea) and without any referendum.

I have my views. You have yours. But no one has the right to impose their views by the means of bullets, artillery shells, cluster and phosphorus bombs. That Kiev does still that despise the freedom fighters' repeated offers for peace talks, and the initial asks for federalisation within Ukraine, shows the true colours of the parties. Judge people by their deeds, not their words.

PS: I just had a thought why Russians generally view the West as having such low moral standards. For a Russian, silence means agreement with, endorsement of something. For a Westerner, silence is a way of avoiding taking a position with regard to a question - somebody else's problem. When the West failed to condemn the Odessa massacre, the shelling of civilians, the use of phosphorus bombs, Russians see it as direct endorsement of such actions by the West, thinking that they represent the European values and that Europeans would do such things in a heartbeat themselves. The experience and memory of WWII does not help in this matter. While all the West (at least the EU) does is hedging.

[keymone2]

Just one question first: Why did the Communist party had to be banned? Only because they were asking the wrong questions.
Does the name Jarosh ring a bell? He is part of the new Ukrainian order and as brown as you can get.
What about changes to the constitution, reverting it back to the previous version, stripping the already meagre rights for Russian language use.
As for sub-humans, I base it on the statements by Farion, Tomishenko, Boutkevitch, Jarosh.

"Crimean. voted for independence." Wrong. Putin ordered his army to capture Crimean parliament, parliament "elected" a marginally supported politician(4% on last elections) to be premier minister, premier minister ordered to organize "referendum" in less than month time, a referendum which had 2 questions "join russia now" / "join russia later" and no question "leave things as they are".

Um, the second question was "for reinstatement of constitution of 1992". Also, what do you have to say to the results of the later American Gallup opinion evaluation, which reinforced the results from the referendum? Rigged as well, this time by the US?


I have my views. You have yours. But no one has the right to impose their views by the means of bullets, artillery shells, cluster and phosphorus bombs. That Kiev does still that despise the freedom fighters' repeated offers for peace talks, and the initial asks for federalisation within Ukraine, shows the true colours of the parties. Judge people by their deeds, not their words.

PS: I just had a thought why Russians generally view the West as having such low moral standards. For a Russian, silence means agreement with, endorsement of something. For a Westerner, silence is a way of avoiding taking a position with regard to a question - somebody else's problem. When the West failed to condemn the Odessa massacre, the shelling of civilians, the use of phosphorus bombs, Russians see it as direct endorsement of such actions by the West, thinking that they represent the European values and that Europeans would do such things in a heartbeat themselves. The experience and memory of WWII does not help in this matter. While all the West (at least the EU) does is hedging.

"Why did the Communist party had to be banned?" communist party was not banned, communist fraction in parliament was disbanded because fraction can only exist if it has majoritarian representatives there and last one quit some weeks before the decision to disband the fraction.

that being said there are requests to prosecutor office to investigate actions of some politicians in communist party as they were among the most active to support separatist actions which are punishable by law in Ukraine.

"Does the name Jarosh ring a bell" ah yes, the biggest boogie-man in Russia for almost half a year. until election results came in and he had less than 1% of support from population. suddenly Russian tv-channels forgot his name and never mentioned him again. please do explain how is he part of new ukrainian order?

"What about changes to the constitution, reverting it back to the previous version" you mean why did parliament with 340(out of 450) votes brought back constitution of 2004 that was itself voted for by 300+ votes(requirement by ukrainian law) and illegally reverted by Yanukovich by bribing majority of members of ukrainian highest court with purpose of increasing president's power? because the only illegal action here is reverting constitution of 2004 by bribing judges of highest court and that had to be reverted. damn this is so confusing, it's not a surprise you didn't get to the bottom of it

"stripping the already meagre rights for Russian language use." constitution changes have nothing to do with language. there was a law passed in parliament shortly after president was ousted to cancel recent language laws because they were ridiculously stupid. reverting those laws would still not mean stripping any rights from russian language. and in any case that law (to revert the law) was retarded per se and was not supported by president so no language laws were reverted and russian language has same status as it had before changing government. i hope i brought some light into the matter.

"As for sub-humans, I base it on the statements by Farion, Tomishenko, Boutkevitch, Jarosh." Farion is stupid and even people in western ukraine realize that. Jarosh had 0.8% support during presidential elections. Tomishenko, Boutkevitch - i don't even know those guys, how can they be my heroes?

bottom line - there are far-right retards in every country but those in ukraine - russian media had blown them and their influence and their support by population way out of proportion.

"second question was for reinstatement of constitution of 1992" and do you know what that means? constitution of 1992 was another separatist project done by russia in .. well 1992 and this constitution was essentially proclaiming independence of crimean republic and we all know for how long would crimea be independent from russia if that happened.

regarding different opinion polls - i do recognize that it is *possible* that majority of crimeans wanted to join russia, my point though is that willingness alone cannot be a ground for secession as this necessarily drags region into a territorial conflict with deployment of troops and basically a war, because a country has the right to defend it's sovereignty and this fact cannot be disputed. a possible grounds for secession is willingness of host country to initiate such referendum or a serious humanitarian catastrophe like what happened in Kosovo. and even there process of secession took more than 10 years! compare that to a referendum controlled by army of different country organized in one month - do you think that is reasonable?

EDIT:

"no one has the right to impose their views by the means of bullets, artillery shells" - which is exactly what terrorists started doing early into the conflict. people in kyiv were protesting for months, living on main square during winter in tents, tens and hundreds of thousands. people in donbass supposedly had couple protests, then took up arms and said "ok, this is not ukraine anymore" - don't you see the difference?

"cluster and phosphorus bombs" this is fake, nobody was using phosphorus or cluster bombs. believe me, those are some nasty things and you can't just clean up the territory after that - there would be numerous of proofs pictures and videos by now and there are none.

"West failed to condemn the Odessa massacre" this is wrong, all sides have condemned what has happened on that day and asked for proper investigation to be held. Russia on the other hand never condemned actions of terrorists even though those actions include kidnappings and torture - does that mean silent approvement?

you talk about "memory of WWII" and you fail to draw parallels between Hitler uniting the germany and "saving germans from oppression" and Putin doing the same with Russia and russians today. there are many attributes of nazism and Russia matches most of them. but again, claiming someone is nazi is only degrading the discussion and i'd like to avoid that.

[Nemo1024]

Well, the referendum in Kosovo was organised after a bloody war conducted by NATO against Yugoslavia. The Crimean referendum was bloodless. Also, Kosovo is not the only country that set a precedent. Denmark too re-acquired its northern land from Prussian Germany after those lands were under German rule for 60 years.

"my point though is that willingness alone cannot be a ground for secession as this necessarily drags region into a territorial conflict with deployment of troops and basically a war"
The UN charter stipulating peoples' right for self-determination would disagree with you.

Besides, the grounds for conflict were laid in 1965. It was only a question of time and method before those people returned home.

[247crypto]

Well, the referendum in Kosovo was organised after a bloody war conducted by NATO against Yugoslavia.

About what Referendum are You talking? There was no referendum.

[niothor]

Well, the referendum in Kosovo was organised after a bloody war conducted by NATO against Yugoslavia.

About what Referendum are You talking? There was no referendum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovan_independence_referendum,_1991


It happened 8 years before the bombing.

[keymone2]

Well, the referendum in Kosovo was organised after a bloody war conducted by NATO against Yugoslavia. The Crimean referendum was bloodless. Also, Kosovo is not the only country that set a precedent. Denmark too re-acquired its northern land from Prussian Germany after those lands were under German rule for 60 years.

"my point though is that willingness alone cannot be a ground for secession as this necessarily drags region into a territorial conflict with deployment of troops and basically a war"
The UN charter stipulating peoples' right for self-determination would disagree with you.

Besides, the grounds for conflict were laid in 1965. It was only a question of time and method before those people returned home.

i've updated my previous post because of your edit.

secession of Kosovo started after real ethnical cleansing done by Miloshevich.

"The UN charter stipulating peoples' right for self-determination would disagree with you." speculating on that charter is a sign of dishonesty. charter's idea is to have less conflicts and to allow people to live in peace. secession because of media manipulations or referendums organized by puppet governments established just weeks before - this is not a way to live peacefully.

"grounds for conflict were laid in 1965" reorganization of lands happening in USSR has nothing to do with today's conflict. it's a media trick to make people angry(because it's easy to make them angry) and manipulate them into doing things you like.

think for yourself - every country has a region where local majority does not represent global majority of that country. mongols in china, chechens/igushs/tatars/osetins/etc - most of people in russian republics far away from moscow, crimea is also example, spain - list is huge. do you think it is reasonable to allow all those regions to have secession referendums under same weird ciscumstances - a foreign country invades with it's military? even if without an invasion - if secession means risk of civil war? ask yourself what are reasonable arguments to start secession process without being politically biased.

P.S.

also don't get me wrong - personally i would be happy if crimeans had proper referendum with nicely worded options to either leave things as they are or join russia or be independent. my problem is with how and by whom that referendum was organized - it is nothing short of military invasion and annexation by russia.

[bryant.coleman]

Are you sure you've got the right border this time? Can't see bits of Poland in the distance like last time? Since there are no obvious landmarks, it's just a crowd of people who could be anywhere.

WTF? Even the pro-Kiev sources would laugh at this statement. So far not a single refugee from Ukraine has crossed over to Poland. (It is not easy as well, as Poland is a part of the EU). On the other hand, the Kiev junta has admitted that most of the refugees are fleeing towards Russia. What more, even the Ukrainian soldiers were fleeing towards Russia (438 of them, a few days ago).

[keymone2]

WTF? Even the pro-Kiev sources would laugh at this statement. So far not a single refugee from Ukraine has crossed over to Poland. (It is not easy as well, as Poland is a part of the EU). On the other hand, the Kiev junta has admitted that most of the refugees are fleeing towards Russia. What more, even the Ukrainian soldiers were fleeing towards Russia (438 of them, a few days ago).

i'm sure that was an allusion to russian tv channel showing queue at ukraine-poland border post and claiming that was refugees from ukraine to russia at very early stages of conflict

[niothor]

Are you sure you've got the right border this time? Can't see bits of Poland in the distance like last time? Since there are no obvious landmarks, it's just a crowd of people who could be anywhere.

WTF? Even the pro-Kiev sources would laugh at this statement. So far not a single refugee from Ukraine has crossed over to Poland. (It is not easy as well, as Poland is a part of the EU). On the other hand, the Kiev junta has admitted that most of the refugees are fleeing towards Russia. What more, even the Ukrainian soldiers were fleeing towards Russia (438 of them, a few days ago).

He was referring to this:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rebecca-novick/post_7028_b_4895567.html

Last time the pro russian station filmed the wrong border;)

[Nemo1024]

P.S.

also don't get me wrong - personally i would be happy if crimeans had proper referendum with nicely worded options to either leave things as they are or join russia or be independent. my problem is with how and by whom that referendum was organized - it is nothing short of military invasion and annexation by russia.

Sometimes to save lives, someone needs to take an action that would seem questionable in the eyes of "international community" (nothe, that it's the same "community" that would blithely bomb and destroy Yugoslavia, Lybia, Iraq, Syria, Egypt). The alternative to a referendum and peaceful ascension to Russia would have been local partisan resistance, Sevastopol becoming a NATO base, bloodbath and mass-murders of civilians, as events in Novorossia demonstrate. Kiev did not even recognise the previous referendum of 1993 (back then Russia was under Washington-puppet Yeltsin), what are the chances of Kiev officially organising and endorsing a referendum on the future of Crimea? A new dispatch of "friendship buses", filled with baseball-wielding thugs, sent to teach Crimeans how to properly love Ukraine would have been a more likely scenario.

[keymone2]

Sometimes to save lives, someone needs to take an action that would seem questionable in the eyes of "international community". The alternative to a referendum and peaceful ascension to Russia would have been local partisan resistance, Sevastopol becoming a NATO base, bloodbath and mass-murders of civilians, as events in Novorossia demonstrate. Kiev did not even recognise the previous referendum of 1993 (back then Russia was under Washington-puppet Yeltsin), what are the chances of Kiev officially organising and endorsing a referendum on the future of Crimea? A new dispatch of "friendship buses", filled with baseball-wielding thugs, sent to teach Crimeans how to properly love Ukraine would have been a more likely scenario.

"to save lives, someone needs to take an action" this is great if there actually is any threat to lives of those you pretend to be saving.

"local partisan resistance" only if fueled by russia which we see right now in donbass.

"Sevastopol becoming a NATO base" the usual boogieman of russian tv channels. what evidence do you have for that happening any time soon? ukraine isn't even considering joining NATO (well wasn't considering until Russian invaded and started hybrid terrorism war against Ukraine)

"bloodbath and mass-murders of civilians, as events in Novorossia demonstrate" events in Novorossiya demonstrate that given bunch of russian ex-military/ex-kgb and enough weapons leaking through rebel-controlled border posts it is easy to wreak havoc in whole region. none of this would be happening had russia not sent it's military into region.

"what are the chances of Kiev officially organising and endorsing a referendum" that i don't know and it still doesn't make what russia did any good. invasion and annexation. we will be sorting this out for many years to follow.

"new dispatch of "friendship buses", filled with baseball-wielding thugs, sent to teach Crimeans how to properly love Ukraine would have been a more likely scenario." the usual stories from russian propaganda. do you ever think for yourself?

[Nemo1024]

"And Poroshenko is not a corrupt and criminal?" current consensus as was shown by the proper democratic and fair elections (of course in some regions it was not possible to provide safety because terrorists did everything so that people couldnt vote) Poroshenko is less corrupt and less criminal. and really it would be hard to find someone worse than Yanukovich - i hope you're not going to dispute that. personally i didn't vote for him and think there were other "lesser evil" candidates but people of ukraine voted and it is first time in history that one candidate won in every region of ukraine.

Anyone who follows the (for want of better word) politics in Ukraine, knows that East and West each vote for their own candidates.

http://stanislavs.org/two-ukraines/
(Interestingly, the original of the above article, in Russian, was written by a Ukrainian to explain to Russians why can't Ukrainians just peacefully live together.)

This time, however, the candidate for the East, Oleg Carev (who would also have been a good candidate if Ukraine wanted to go away from oligarchy rule), got marginalised, criminalised and removed from the presidential run. So were other candidates, that were marginally popular in the East.  Discounting other strange figures (yes, Jarosh can be counted among such, even though he poisons the society), this left Poroshenko, who was the West-Ukrainian favourite. You call this "democratic and fair". Does it inlude all the beatings and public humiliation and violence against the "wrong" (in the eyes of Washington) candidates?

[bryant.coleman]

This time, however, the candidate for the East, Oleg Carev (who would also have been a good candidate if Ukraine wanted to go away from oligarchy rule), got marginalised, criminalised and removed from the presidential run.

Tsarev was not allowed to contest, while Mykhailo Dobkin was allowed to contest but not allowed to campaign anywhere. Also, none of the political leaders from the KPU were allowed to stand in the elections.

And the turnout in South and East Ukraine was just around 33%, compared to some 75% in the Central and West.

[keymone2]

Anyone who follows the (for want of better word) politics in Ukraine, knows that East and West each vote for their own candidates.

http://stanislavs.org/two-ukraines/
(Interestingly, the original of the above article, in Russian, was written by a Ukrainian to explain to Russians why can't Ukrainians just peacefully live together.)

This time, however, the candidate for the East, Oleg Carev (who would also have been a good candidate if Ukraine wanted to go away from oligarchy rule), got marginalised, criminalised and removed from the presidential run. So were other candidates, that were marginally popular in the East.  Discounting other strange figures (yes, Jarosh can be counted among such, even though he poisons the society), this left Poroshenko, who was the West-Ukrainian favourite. You call this "democratic and fair". Does it inlude all the beatings and public humiliation and violence against the "wrong" (in the eyes of Washington) candidates?

"the candidate for the East, Oleg Carev got marginalised, criminalised and removed" wrong. he did not get removed, he himself refused to participate. also i don't know how it works in your country but if you do something against the law you are a criminal. Tsaryov was a vocal separatist organizing separatist meeting and things like that. you may like that or not - separatism is a criminal offense in ukraine.

and if you really just look at all possible opinion polls tsaryov wouldnt get much support, so calling him a competitor of current president means you have no clue about politics in ukraine.

Tsarev was not allowed to contest, while Mykhailo Dobkin was allowed to contest but not allowed to campaign anywhere. Also, none of the political leaders from the KPU were allowed to stand in the elections.

And the turnout in South and East Ukraine was just around 33%, compared to some 75% in the Central and West.

again, he was allowed but chose to get out of the race. and what is this bullshit about none of KPU leaders being allowed to participate? just go fucking look at election results.

and you're wrong about turnout too, here's the official data:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8f/%D0%AF%D0%B2%D0%BA%D0%B0_%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%86%D1%96%D0%B2_%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%B7%D0%B0%D1%87%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B3%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%85_%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%85_%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B7%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%82%D0%B0_%D0%A3%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%97%D0%BD%D0%B8_2014_%D0%BF%D0%BE_%D0%BE%D0%BA%D1%80%D1%83%D0%B3%D0%B0%D1%85.PNG

the only two regions that had around 33% or less turnout were those where separatists didn't allow elections to happen by attacking election posts, kidnapping election officials and threatening violence to those who shows up and votes.

[bryant.coleman]

the only two regions that had around 33% or less turnout were those where separatists didn't allow elections to happen by attacking election posts, kidnapping election officials and threatening violence to those who shows up and votes.

I am talking about the entire South-East region. The total turnout was around 33%. Even those booths in Donetsk and Lugansk which were under the firm control of the pro-Kiev forces recorded a turnout of less than 20%.

[keymone2]

I am talking about the entire South-East region. The total turnout was around 33%. Even those booths in Donetsk and Lugansk which were under the firm control of the pro-Kiev forces recorded a turnout of less than 20%.

no you are wrong and i gave you the actual turnout data. if you are willing to ignore it and continue believe in your lies - you are free to do that.

[bryant.coleman]

no you are wrong and i gave you the actual turnout data. if you are willing to ignore it and continue believe in your lies - you are free to do that.

Tell me whether these facts are wrong or not:

Total number of registered voters in the South-East region:  15,806,180 (Excluding Crimea).

Total number of votes cast in the South-East:  5,649,453 (Excluding Crimea).

Turn out: 35.74%

If you include Crimea as well, then the turnout will be around 30%.

[keymone2]

Tell me whether these facts are wrong or not:

Total number of registered voters in the South-East region:  15,806,180 (Excluding Crimea).

Total number of votes cast in the South-East:  5,649,453 (Excluding Crimea).

Turn out: 35.74%

If you include Crimea as well, then the turnout will be around 30%.

give me the source and i'll tell you what i think about it.

[BigBoozie]

this is war between USA and Russia, or NWO and OWO, Ukrainians are just colateral damage.