rpietila Altcoin Observer

[jabo38]

The European Central Bank has released a new report on digital currency, describing it as “inherently unstable” but potentially transformative in the realm of payments.

As well as including refrains of central bank warnings about digital currencies, such as a perceived lack of transparency and market volatility, the ECB also touched on the growth of altcoins.

The report suggested that altcoins may one day serve as future payment networks that, in the eyes of the ECB, could compete with bitcoin given the differences in design, distribution and implementation.

At the same time, the report highlighted how altcoins pose added risks for investors because of the nebulous nature of some projects, noting:

“It is too early to tell what the future of these altcoins will be. A great many of them could be nothing more than “scamcoins”, ie VCSs that are created with the main objective of swindling naive buyers, either as consumers and payers or as investors.”

Specific risks named in the report include a lack of specific information about an altcoin network's management, premining and market illiquidity.

http://www.coindesk.com/european-central-bank-digital-currencies-inherently-unstable/

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ECB talking altcoins?
Nice
Feels like the times of opportunity when they noticed Bitcoin on the horizon.

Being here you just have to open your eyes to see what kind of scamfest it is.

Looking at the top 20 coins you can find at least 7 coins which are very close to complete scam - at least two of them are complete scams. below that you probably do not find 7 coins that are not scams.

Looking at 2-10, each one has had some shady event(s) in its history.

[dewdeded]

Good post in Speculation subforum re alts: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=974346.msg10675534#msg10675534

I don't understand the insight & conclusion and can't see the consequence & implied recommendations of point 1.

Point 2 and 3 are very basic general knowledge.
(AFAIK at least for everybody with an professional or educational business background or everyone doing systematic research (or just longer thinking) about altcoins & crypto currencies.)

[jehst]

Good post in Speculation subforum re alts: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=974346.msg10675534#msg10675534

I don't understand the insight & conclusion and can't see the consequence & implied recommendations of point 1.

Point 2 and 3 are very basic general knowledge.
(AFAIK at least for everybody with an professional or educational business background or everyone doing systematic research (or just longer thinking) about altcoins & crypto currencies.)

It's targeted distribution. If XCoin has been fairly distributed and fits your target demographic, you can just piggyback on that fair distribution and target your product (YCoin) at them by giving YCoin to XCoin-holders in the same proportion that XCoin-holders hold XCoin.

If you look at all coins as DACs, then mining is a wasteful, expensive activity. If you can achieve fair distribution at another coin's expense, why not just use their blockchain to distribute your coin?

Monero for example, could've just said "OK, bitcoin is fairly distributed. Send bitcoin to this address and you will get XMR. And because XBT is fairly distributed, then XMR will be fairly distributed as well." And then there could still have tail emission with XMR's mining algorithm (1% inflation target per year afterwards). But you would've been able to skip the main emission period (80% mined in 4 years) and save a lot of time by moving directly to tail emission. In addition, you could've said "And we're reserving 1.5% of all coins for the development fund."

NXT, Bitshares, Counterparty, Ethereum, etc. have all piggybacked on bitcoin's distribution in one way or another.

[Oscilson]

Monero for example, could've just said "OK, bitcoin is fairly distributed. Send bitcoin to this address and you will get XMR. And because XBT is fairly distributed, then XMR will be fairly distributed as well." And then there could still have tail emission with XMR's mining algorithm (1% inflation target per year afterwards). But you would've been able to skip the main emission period (80% mined in 4 years) and save a lot of time by moving directly to tail emission. In addition, you could've said "And we're reserving 1.5% of all coins for the development fund."

NXT, Bitshares, Counterparty, Ethereum, etc. have all piggybacked on bitcoin's distribution in one way or another.

In order to do that, you need to set the right exchange ratio. If it is 1:1, then it will make XMR a muiltibillon coin quickly.

[Joshuar]

Monero for example, could've just said "OK, bitcoin is fairly distributed. Send bitcoin to this address and you will get XMR. And because XBT is fairly distributed, then XMR will be fairly distributed as well." And then there could still have tail emission with XMR's mining algorithm (1% inflation target per year afterwards). But you would've been able to skip the main emission period (80% mined in 4 years) and save a lot of time by moving directly to tail emission. In addition, you could've said "And we're reserving 1.5% of all coins for the development fund."

NXT, Bitshares, Counterparty, Ethereum, etc. have all piggybacked on bitcoin's distribution in one way or another.

In order to do that, you need to set the right exchange ratio. If it is 1:1, then it will make XMR a muiltibillon coin quickly.

105 Bitcoin Addresses own 2milion BTC total(avg 20% of BTC supply). No currency on earth has perfect distribution, it's impossible(including FIAT currencies). As you can see Bitcoin's distribution is not close to perfect(Satoshi owns 1million coins himself, and the like).

As long as a currency doesn't have a really screwed up distribution(Like darkcoin and the like), then I deem it fair.

[rpietila]

No currency on earth has perfect distribution, it's impossible(including FIAT currencies).

Especially including fiat currencies.

The main difference with fiats vs. BTC is that practically all fiats in the world are controlled by a small clique, who use the BIS (Bank of International Settlements) as their front. Even if somebody had an inordinate sum in his bank accounts, he does not have any control over it. It can be frozen or deleted by the decision of BIS (or by many other bodies).

With BTC, some have more than the others, but nobody can control what the others do with their own. This is freedom.

[ArticMine]

No currency on earth has perfect distribution, it's impossible(including FIAT currencies).

Especially including fiat currencies.

The main difference with fiats vs. BTC is that practically all fiats in the world are controlled by a small clique, who use the BIS (Bank of International Settlements) as their front. Even if somebody had an inordinate sum in his bank accounts, he does not have any control over it. It can be frozen or deleted by the decision of BIS (or by many other bodies).

With BTC, some have more than the others, but nobody can control what the others do with their own. This is freedom.

While this is true for fiat held in bank accounts it is not the case when fiat is held as cash.  Some of us are old enough to remember the days when a significant proportion of the population held their fiat as cash, and cash was the primary method used for day to day transactions. In addition securities were also in many cases held as bearer instruments. It is only in the last 40 years that fiat has changed in this way.

By the way XBT and XMR are also vulnerable to this issue. Holding XBT on deposit with MtGox is like holding EUR on deposit in  Cypriot bank. Holding XBT on the blockchain is like holding EUR is one's pocket. A similar argument can be made for XMR.

The one advantage that XBT and XMR has over fiat is that it is possible to securely hold substantial amounts in "cash" form, provided that one takes some simple but unpopular precautions. One has say a flat no to DRM infected propriety operating systems such as those sold licensed by Microsoft and Apple, and only use FLOSS operating systems such as GNU/Linux and rooted Android.

Edit: Why someone will blindly trust Microsoft or Apple, and at the same time not trust the NSA or GHCQ, with their data defies any rational explanation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_%28surveillance_program%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_%28surveillance_program%29#mediaviewer/File:Prism_slide_5.jpg.

[opennux]

Monero for example, could've just said "OK, bitcoin is fairly distributed. Send bitcoin to this address and you will get XMR. And because XBT is fairly distributed, then XMR will be fairly distributed as well." And then there could still have tail emission with XMR's mining algorithm (1% inflation target per year afterwards). But you would've been able to skip the main emission period (80% mined in 4 years) and save a lot of time by moving directly to tail emission. In addition, you could've said "And we're reserving 1.5% of all coins for the development fund."

NXT, Bitshares, Counterparty, Ethereum, etc. have all piggybacked on bitcoin's distribution in one way or another.

In order to do that, you need to set the right exchange ratio. If it is 1:1, then it will make XMR a muiltibillon coin quickly.

No currency on earth has perfect distribution, it's impossible(including FIAT currencies).

What is "perfect" distribution? Is it a power law distribution?

[Cryddit]

Perfect distribution would be achieved in an economy with a GINI of 1.0

But that ain't gonna happen.  Last time I looked, the USA has a GINI of about 0.41.

Bitcoin's distribution is somewhere around GINI 0.86 IIRC.

[ArticMine]

Edit: Why someone will blindly trust Microsoft or Apple, and at the same time not trust the NSA or GHCQ, with their data defies any rational explanation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_%28surveillance_program%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_%28surveillance_program%29#mediaviewer/File:Prism_slide_5.jpg.

+1, MS and Apple are the NSA lol, its more sad and alarming than funny but it should be no joke securing your coins, its hard enough patch holes in the ssl and other free software in gnu/linux so why should we ever trust closed-source vulnerable OS?

I should point out that the reverse does not hold at all. In a situation where one would trust the NSA or GHCQ with certain data one still should not trust Microsoft or Apple with that data! Microsoft for example has shared its source code with the FSB and the PLA, It has also allowed its trade marks to be used to sell computers with built in malware that breaks SSL in order to serve ads, as in the recent case of Lenovo. As for Apple its security is simply horrid as the recent "nude selfie" case so aptly demonstrated.

[smooth]

Perfect distribution would be achieved in an economy with a GINI of 1.0

Maybe you have that backwards? But I'm not really sure what you mean. though. 0 is perfectly equal, 1 is perfectly unequal. Both are "perfect" in some sense.  Most GINIs in the world have been increasing recently i.e. more inequality.

"Ideal" is very much different and even putting aside subjectively there isn't even necessarily a best answer. Using the same set of values, 0.3 might hypothetically be considered as good as 0.6 but for different reasons. Everyone being equally poor for example isn't necessarily ideal.

[opennux]

Perfect distribution would be achieved in an economy with a GINI of 1.0

But that ain't gonna happen.  Last time I looked, the USA has a GINI of about 0.41.

Bitcoin's distribution is somewhere around GINI 0.86 IIRC.

  So with GINI of 1.0 you'd be the one holding all (aka perfect distribution for you..).

My point was "Perfect Distribution" does not equal "Equal Distribution".

[Cryddit]

Mine was that people's idea of perfection can vary wildly.  Or at least, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. 

[jehst]

Perfect distribution would be achieved in an economy with a GINI of 1.0

But that ain't gonna happen.  Last time I looked, the USA has a GINI of about 0.41.

Bitcoin's distribution is somewhere around GINI 0.86 IIRC.

We could improve the world's GINI by taking money away from Elon Musk (who wants to make widespread electric vehicles powered by solar energy and multiplanetary human civilization a reality) and giving everyone in India $10 each. Do you see the problem with that?

Roger Ver owns (or owned) 300,000 bitcoins, contributing heavily to bitcoin's "bad" GINI. Roger Ver was also among the first investors in services like blockchain.info and Bitpay.  He started the first major bitcoin retail store. This was long before venture capitalists were investing in bitcoin.

A small group of intelligent, patient large-holders who were willing to invest and take a leadership role in bitcoin (or at least refrain from dumping their coins for a quick buck) was absolutely crucial in preventing bitcoin from dying a quick death in its infancy. And a quick death would've been the result if Satoshi decided to start dumping his nearly 1,000,000 coins when bitcoin reached $1.

Sure, lots of people can have wildly different ideas on what a "perfect distribution" is, but many of those people are going to be objectively wrong. If talented, big-thinking people can't amass big fortunes, then we can only do small things. And I'm saying this as someone who hasn't amassed a big fortune and likely won't. I'm happy guys like Elon Musk are around and have way more money than I do.

[rpietila]

What is "perfect" distribution? Is it a power law distribution?

I have been arguing for power law based distribution.

[opennux]

What is "perfect" distribution? Is it a power law distribution?

I have been arguing for power law based distribution.

And I agree with you.

[dewdeded]

Any thougths/research on Magi (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=735170.0)?
They have CPU mining, PoS-II, PoM & Unique BLK reward and are building there own payment processor.
From a first look the project looks pretty sophisticated. I think I try to upread on it today or tommorow.

[111magic]

Any thougths/research on Magi (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=735170.0)?
They have CPU mining, PoS-II, PoM & Unique BLK reward and are building there own payment processor.
From a first look the project looks pretty sophisticated. I think I try to upread on it today or tommorow.

Nice to see that Magi (XMG) can be discussed here also.
If you have questions just ask.
Always welcome.

[wpalczynski]

Any thougths/research on Magi (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=735170.0)?
They have CPU mining, PoS-II, PoM & Unique BLK reward and are building there own payment processor.
From a first look the project looks pretty sophisticated. I think I try to upread on it today or tommorow.

Nice to see that Magi (XMG) can be discussed here also.
If you have questions just ask.
Always welcome.

Since you are part of the Magi community I though I would ask you if you have any personal information on the cryptocoins-dice gambling site owner who went by the name Bobbax (new account he used for the gambling site scam).  He seems to have been involved with Magi as well.  Have a read through the thread below and if you have any information to help the community please post it there.  These sort of thiefs need to be rooted out of the crypto scene.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=988226.msg10765725#msg10765725

[111magic]

Any thougths/research on Magi (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=735170.0)?
They have CPU mining, PoS-II, PoM & Unique BLK reward and are building there own payment processor.
From a first look the project looks pretty sophisticated. I think I try to upread on it today or tommorow.

Nice to see that Magi (XMG) can be discussed here also.
If you have questions just ask.
Always welcome.

Since you are part of the Magi community I though I would ask you if you have any personal information on the cryptocoins-dice gambling site owner who went by the name Bobbax (new account he used for the gambling site scam).  He seems to have been involved with Magi as well.  Have a read through the thread below and if you have any information to help the community please post it there.  These sort of thiefs need to be rooted out of the crypto scene.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=988226.msg10765725#msg10765725

I will check for you. Hate scams!! Will contact our dev for delete this one in our Magi thread! Thanks amigo!

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=988226.new#new