rpietila Altcoin Observer

[Brilliantrocket]

Its all about solving the 51% issue and has some good recommandations on the topic, whereas anonymints proposal is easily cheatable and thus wont work (like the drk masternode payments are easily cheatable).

How?

Seriously?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=688510.msg7809053#msg7809053
Can you explain that thread then?

https://darkcointalk.org/threads/rc4-development-and-path-going-forward.1604/

With this launch, we introduced a new soft-fork method, which some users have affectionately dubbed the “spork”. As clients update, new features - Masternode payments, in this case - are implemented and available, though not strictly enforced by the network. After almost all users are updated, the fork can be remotely activated, which would enforce the new feature rules. If successful, the new feature(s) would be permanently activated and enforced. If unsuccessful, enforcement can be deactivated remotely for the whole network without the need for users to update their clients. In the latter case, a checkpoint would be added to put the whole network back on the same chain.

This allows us to test higher risk, innovative features in mainnet without having to hard fork the network and without the risk of a live rollback where all users must update.

DRK is so dangerous. By installing DRK wallet, people is tricked into installing malware, virus or becoming part of botnets. DRK devs are so dangerous. They control you remotely. People, be careful.

I hope this was sarcasm, as the sheer amount of abject stupidity in this post may bring this thread to a critical mass, creating a spacetime singularity, a void which will consume us all.

[cAPSLOCK]

I hope this was sarcasm, as the sheer amount of abject stupidity in this post may bring this thread to a critical mass, creating a spacetime singularity, a void which will consume us all.

If that were possible your posts would have snuffed out the universe long ago.

[illodin]

DRK is so dangerous.

Did you accidentally post with a wrong user account?

[freigeist]

People whining about continuous, non-zero block rewards look like fools to anyone with common sense.  There's this thing that exists called strong encryption where people that own the coins are eventually going to die or misplace them somehow, and the outside world will never have a chance to get to many of those coins.  It's the equivalent of having everyone on the planet bury their life savings on the ocean floor instead of using a bank.  

It doesn't matter. Coins are fractional. Instead of using 10 coins to do a transaction, you'll simply use 5 if half the coins are lost - because the value of the remaining coins will double due to scarcity.

Given that you can go up to less than 1 coin (with 0.5, 0.2, 0.0003 etc) it's not a problem in any way.

Yes but then you create a deflationary currency which can be argued isn't economically viable. Look at the places that have deflationary currencies and see if you think its a great idea.

Extreme inflation is almost the same as extreme deflation in both cases
the economy won't work how it should.

In extreme inflation you get numbers in currency "value" with
bunch of zeros to the right 1230000000
and if there is deflation you get the opposite 0.0000000123
bunch of zeros to the left.

In case of extreme inflation the state usually makes the money reform
and just removes the 00000 from the number like what was 12300000000
will become 12300000000 after the reform.
Maybe similar thing will happen with deflationary crypto currencies
when developer decide to make "crypto reform" and change the value 0.0000000123 to
0.0000000123 and at the end you will get 0.0001230000

Anyway in both cases in extreme inflation and deflation the economy will won't work.

[dreamspark]

Extreme inflation is almost the same as extreme deflation in both cases
the economy won't work how it should.

In extreme inflation you get numbers in currency "value" with
bunch of zeros to the right 1230000000
and if there is deflation you get the opposite 0.0000000123
bunch of zeros to the left.

In case of extreme inflation the state usually makes the money reform
and just removes the 00000 from the number like what was 12300000000
will become 12300000000 after the reform.
Maybe similar thing will happen with deflationary crypto currencies
when developer decide to make "crypto reform" and change the value 0.0000000123 to
0.0000000123 and at the end you will get 0.0001230000

Anyway in both cases in extreme inflation and deflation the economy will won't work.

You started by saying its not how the economy should work either way and I thought I was going to get a nice explanation of the economic effects of both but instead you then started talking about 0's.

The simple fact is deflationary currency econnomically incentiveses saving rather than spending which is terrible long term.
Inflationary currencies obviously do the opposite and incentivise spending and creating debt.

In the crypto world most have agreed that high inflation is terrible see, USD etc. However the same people seem to champion complete deflationary currencies which like I said can be just as bad in their own way. The solution is simple. Niether deflationary nor inflationary. The principle is easy however its near immpossible to try and predict how much inflation you need to keep the total money circulated (all unrecoverable coins taken away from total coins mined) at the same level. With no real precedents to follow, crypto enthusiasts will argue this for a long time to come.

[freigeist]

You started by saying its not how the economy should work either way and I thought I was going to get a nice explanation of the economic effects of both but instead you then started talking about 0's.

The simple fact is deflationary currency econnomically incentiveses saving rather than spending which is terrible long term.
Inflationary currencies obviously do the opposite and incentivise spending and creating debt.

In the crypto world most have agreed that high inflation is terrible see, USD etc. However the same people seem to champion complete deflationary currencies which like I said can be just as bad in their own way. The solution is simple. Niether deflationary nor inflationary. The principle is easy however its near immpossible to try and predict how much inflation you need to keep the total money circulated (all unrecoverable coins taken away from total coins mined) at the same level. With no real precedents to follow, crypto enthusiasts will argue this for a long time to come.

Well at the beginning I thought that too but then I have lost myself in zeros
Thanks for giving nice explanations anyway.

[Este Nuno]

Extreme inflation is almost the same as extreme deflation in both cases
the economy won't work how it should.

In extreme inflation you get numbers in currency "value" with
bunch of zeros to the right 1230000000
and if there is deflation you get the opposite 0.0000000123
bunch of zeros to the left.

In case of extreme inflation the state usually makes the money reform
and just removes the 00000 from the number like what was 12300000000
will become 12300000000 after the reform.
Maybe similar thing will happen with deflationary crypto currencies
when developer decide to make "crypto reform" and change the value 0.0000000123 to
0.0000000123 and at the end you will get 0.0001230000

Anyway in both cases in extreme inflation and deflation the economy will won't work.

You started by saying its not how the economy should work either way and I thought I was going to get a nice explanation of the economic effects of both but instead you then started talking about 0's.

The simple fact is deflationary currency econnomically incentiveses saving rather than spending which is terrible long term.
Inflationary currencies obviously do the opposite and incentivise spending and creating debt.

In the crypto world most have agreed that high inflation is terrible see, USD etc. However the same people seem to champion complete deflationary currencies which like I said can be just as bad in their own way. The solution is simple. Niether deflationary nor inflationary. The principle is easy however its near immpossible to try and predict how much inflation you need to keep the total money circulated (all unrecoverable coins taken away from total coins mined) at the same level. With no real precedents to follow, crypto enthusiasts will argue this for a long time to come.

This is just off the top of my head after reading your post, but what about a system where the more coins are 'saved' as in not moved for a period of time, the block reward increases to incentivise spending by increasing the money supply? Transaction fees would apply of course so that there is a cost to just sending coins in between two addresses.

I'm not saying this is necessarily a good idea, just something i thought of as a way to address the issue you mentioned.

[othe]

Every system that is cheatable will be cheated, humans are greedy and will exploit everything they can.

Thus your idea is totally horrible

[rpietila]

The simple fact is deflationary currency economically incentivises saving rather than spending which is terrible long term.

Listen, this is important:

If there is a sustained increase in the value of money, it must result from the economy sustainably growing more than the monetary base. This is not terrible long term. It is simply that everybody gets richer:
- savers get richer, since they can buy more even without interest on savings
- producers get more richer, because otherwise they would be saving instead of producing.

And the fact that the economy is growing more than the money supply, must stay in force. Otherwise it is no deflationary environment any more.

Therefore, "deflation" (sustained decrease of general price level) is always good and never bad. It is a market phenomenon that tells the society that "guys, we are doing good!"

[Este Nuno]

Every system that is cheatable will be cheated, humans are greedy and will exploit everything they can.

Thus your idea is totally horrible

Theoretically if there was an unexploitable system, would it be a good system?

I have no idea if it would be good or not I just posted it for the sake of discussion since I found dreamsparks post interesting. And I generally agree with him/her that people in the Bitcoin community tend to be too committed to deflation as a positive economic force.

[Its About Sharing]

Every system that is cheatable will be cheated, humans are greedy and will exploit everything they can.

Thus your idea is totally horrible

I am afraid you are confusing Western Civilization (which has been usurped and manipulated) with mankind.
For a better example of mankind look at those more "primitive" peoples. They like to share, they see themselves as a part of things (and rightfully so). There is no reason for greed as why would you need more than there is, which belongs to all of us? It makes no sense... 

Unless you have been pitted against your fellow man to compete, accrue, challenge, etc. An operational reboot might be in order, not to mention opening ones heart.

I think Jimi Hendrix (the sage) said it pretty well, when the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace. That is a self evident truth, but one must take the blinders off.

Regarding Cryptos and reaching that "goal", it is just a step in the right direction. It is a disruptive technology that will disrupt and get us away from the hoarding mentality.
And these alts are just a bit more Trojanistic medicine to add to the Trojan soup. Ain't it lovely?

But, its really quite simple,
Its about sharing

[Este Nuno]

XMR looking extremely strong and definitely has broken its previous trend.

It's been gradual enough that we might not see any major pullback. I'm not sure if the last run up is going to be indicative of how this(potential) run up is going to be but it is looking somewhat similar so far.

[aminorex]

The simple fact is deflationary currency econnomically incentiveses saving rather than spending which is terrible long term.
Inflationary currencies obviously do the opposite and incentivise spending and creating debt.

You omitted "creating debt ... which is terrible long term."

But I object to your "simple fact".  Saving is capital formation.  Deflation eases capital formation.  Without capital, enterprise is impossible.   Spending does not contribute to capital formation.  Encouraging spending is no better for the economy than smoking cocaine is good for your energy levels.  Well, yes, smoking cocaine will perk you up a bit, but it's not a sustainable gain.  Sustainable gains come from healthy habits.  Like careful investment.  Not desperate investment, chasing yield to recoup inflationary bleed.  That;s just chasing crack with heroin.

Deflation has a bad name because people confuse different kinds of deflation.  Deflation of the size of the economy, deflation of the size of the money supply, deflation of the scale of the prices.  These three are econometric observables.  They sometimes correlate, and sometimes anticorrelate -- it depends on the cyclic and secular phase, the expansion/contraction regime, the point in technology and social cycles, &c.   We tend to over-weight recent evidence, but economic history is very long.   The great depression is the Keynesian poster-child, but the data is abused to support the thesis.  In reality, the cycle-bust depression was over by 1932, but then Roosevelt basically destroyed the U.S. economy by seizing the gold and creating a huge centrally planned welfare state.  The U.S. had to basically destroy the rest of the developed world in order to become competitive again.  The Roosevelt inflation correlated with the economic contraction of the great depression.

I claim that savings encouraged by deflation leads to capital formation which leads to investment, which leads to spending.  Savings leads to wealth effect which leads to spending which leads to profits on investments made to supply that demand.  Saving is good, period.  People who complain about saving are just trying to take other people's money away.  Like any thief, their words should be regarded with great skepticism.

But the fact is that all inflationary crypto dies.  No one wants it.  Without a gun put to their head, no one will take inflationary money if there is any viable alternative.  Demurrage only works under duress.

I just wish the neo-Keynesian lies would die.  But, there are times when a stimulant is very helpful to the function of an organism.  In this much, they are certainly correct.  Tiny successes only cause their broken ideology to gain more power, until the long-term effects of their policy prescriptions make themselves felt, and we all suffer, for a long long time to come.  It's like a car with only a gas pedal, and no brakes.  Nobody ever wants a proper anti-cyclic policy measure, because everyone is after free money.  Keynesian economics are pump & dump economics.  Perfect for 4 year election cycles.

[/quote]

[aminorex]

XMR looking extremely strong and definitely has broken its previous trend.

It's been gradual enough that we might not see any major pullback. I'm not sure if the last run up is going to be indicative of how this(potential) run up is going to be but it is looking somewhat similar so far.

gradual?  0023 to 0042 in 72 hours is gradual?  maybe i should be more ambitious.

[othe]

Every system that is cheatable will be cheated, humans are greedy and will exploit everything they can.

Thus your idea is totally horrible

I am afraid you are confusing Western Civilization (which has been usurped and manipulated) with mankind.
For a better example of mankind look at those more "primitive" peoples. They like to share, they see themselves as a part of things (and rightfully so). There is no reason for greed as why would you need more than there is, which belongs to all of us? It makes no sense... 

Unless you have been pitted against your fellow man to compete, accrue, challenge, etc. An operational reboot might be in order, not to mention opening ones heart.

I think Jimi Hendrix (the sage) said it pretty well, when the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace. That is a self evident truth, but one must take the blinders off.

Regarding Cryptos and reaching that "goal", it is just a step in the right direction. It is a disruptive technology that will disrupt and get us away from the hoarding mentality.
And these alts are just a bit more Trojanistic medicine to add to the Trojan soup. Ain't it lovely?

But, its really quite simple,
Its about sharing

I am not even sure i even get your point, but it takes just a single greedy person or government to cheat such a system and stop the inflation. Cryptocurrency should be a zerotrust system with tight non-cheatable rules thus such stuff simply doesnt belong into them...

You know the story about adam and eve An apple ruined everything.

[Este Nuno]

XMR looking extremely strong and definitely has broken its previous trend.

It's been gradual enough that we might not see any major pullback. I'm not sure if the last run up is going to be indicative of how this(potential) run up is going to be but it is looking somewhat similar so far.

gradual?  0023 to 0042 in 72 hours is gradual?  maybe i should be more ambitious.

Haha

Relative to other historical run ups in XMR it seems pretty gradual. It's a 45 degree line rather than a 85 degree one.

[Its About Sharing]

Every system that is cheatable will be cheated, humans are greedy and will exploit everything they can.

Thus your idea is totally horrible

I am afraid you are confusing Western Civilization (which has been usurped and manipulated) with mankind.
For a better example of mankind look at those more "primitive" peoples. They like to share, they see themselves as a part of things (and rightfully so). There is no reason for greed as why would you need more than there is, which belongs to all of us? It makes no sense... 

Unless you have been pitted against your fellow man to compete, accrue, challenge, etc. An operational reboot might be in order, not to mention opening ones heart.

I think Jimi Hendrix (the sage) said it pretty well, when the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace. That is a self evident truth, but one must take the blinders off.

Regarding Cryptos and reaching that "goal", it is just a step in the right direction. It is a disruptive technology that will disrupt and get us away from the hoarding mentality.
And these alts are just a bit more Trojanistic medicine to add to the Trojan soup. Ain't it lovely?

But, its really quite simple,
Its about sharing

I am not even sure i even get your point, but it takes just a single greedy person or government to cheat such a system and stop the inflation. Cryptocurrency should be a zerotrust system with tight non-cheatable rules thus such stuff simply doesnt belong into them...

You know the story about adam and eve An apple ruined everything.

My point is that people are not inherently greedy or bad, quite the opposite.
True, in that it takes a single bad apple (aaaahhh, now I know where that expression comes from!), to make it bad for everyone else.
Hence, these decentralized, consensus based Crypto technologies are really a step in the right direction. They sort of change
our thinking AND start us questioning what money really is. Every governments (and more so banks) worst nightmare - Trust-less money based on algorithms (and yes bankers - it is open source!)
Curiosity is back again...

IAS

[Its About Sharing]

The simple fact is deflationary currency econnomically incentiveses saving rather than spending which is terrible long term.
Inflationary currencies obviously do the opposite and incentivise spending and creating debt.

Savings is only terrible if our "handlers" want to raise lots of money from the taxes of our labor.
If we bought less, we would need less money. Don't let the word "productivity" fool you, we are not machines and we
don't need stuff to make us happy. Luckily these Cryptos are global, so we are all in it together, and being all in it together
means we all can stop working 40 hour weeks (I already stopped that years ago) and all stop buying and consuming more
than we need.

Once we stop spending so much, governments will have much less money in which to tax, which means on top of the already
shrinking money supply via cryptos (much much more difficult to fund wars), governments will DRASTICALLY lose their power. (Hopefully corporations acting as Nation States as well).
But no fear, these algorithms are more than just for money. Just throw in some heart and we are really our own governments,
for the people and by the people, no more of "buy" the people.    I'm really looking forward to what these App coins do regarding governing.

Its about sharing

[digicoin]

The simple fact is deflationary currency economically incentivises saving rather than spending which is terrible long term.

Listen, this is important:

If there is a sustained increase in the value of money, it must result from the economy sustainably growing more than the monetary base. This is not terrible long term. It is simply that everybody gets richer:
- savers get richer, since they can buy more even without interest on savings
- producers get more richer, because otherwise they would be saving instead of producing.

And the fact that the economy is growing more than the money supply, must stay in force. Otherwise it is no deflationary environment any more.

Therefore, "deflation" (sustained decrease of general price level) is always good and never bad. It is a market phenomenon that tells the society that "guys, we are doing good!"

Do you believe in perfect market that will never produce things more than what people is able to consume? No? Because of the greediness of people

[AlexGR]

People whining about continuous, non-zero block rewards look like fools to anyone with common sense.  There's this thing that exists called strong encryption where people that own the coins are eventually going to die or misplace them somehow, and the outside world will never have a chance to get to many of those coins.  It's the equivalent of having everyone on the planet bury their life savings on the ocean floor instead of using a bank.  

It doesn't matter. Coins are fractional. Instead of using 10 coins to do a transaction, you'll simply use 5 if half the coins are lost - because the value of the remaining coins will double due to scarcity.

Given that you can go up to less than 1 coin (with 0.5, 0.2, 0.0003 etc) it's not a problem in any way.

Yes but then you create a deflationary currency which can be argued isn't economically viable. Look at the places that have deflationary currencies and see if you think its a great idea.

The problem of deflationary impact is non-existant in cryptocurrencies as they are supplementary currencies that do not affect the economy at large.

The problem of a deflationary currency is when that specific currency is also a national currency, dictating the macro-environment and economic operations within a specific national economy. In other words, when people transact with a decreasing number of money, the GDP goes down.

If a country continues to issue toilet-paper money (inflated money), it can keep its economy moving. However citizens do have the option of using cryptos, gold, silver etc as a store of value. The government can still pay its budget and deficits though since its issuing new money.

The whole demonization of deflationary currencies, in terms of cryptos, makes the erroneous assumption that they are the only type of money available - when they are not. They exist within a broader ecosystem of various types of money and therefore do not really set the tempo of the ecosystem. Governments do (dictate the tempo) with their fiat scam money issuance.