Solution to poverty - Socialism or Capitalism?

[realdope]

We need everyone to live a good life from birth, anything that isnt this creates war.

[Zarathustra]

Capitalism and Socialism (which is collectivism) are unnatural rise and fall constructs. Beyond collectivism you'll find self-sufficiency (anarchy), which was the natural state of human being for a million and more years. Civilization (collectivism) is only a short anomaly within the history.

Do you have some good reading about anarchist, because I'd like how they think to solve the problem of property without giving away to a central power the monopoly of violence.
If state does not exist, and I consider something to be my property, but you don't agree. What settle the dispute ?

Historically, before (and beyond) the state, there was self-sufficiency (no trade). But self-sufficiency is only possible within a nuclear community. Patriarchy (organized violence, state and church) destroyed those communities 10'000 years ago.

The best book I know is in German. Gerhard Bott: Die Erfindung der Götter.
Summary in english:

http://gerhardbott.de/das-buch/summary-in-english.html

There are still a very small number of self sufficient communities in Africa. The problem with these kinds of communities is that their standard of living is much lower then even the poorest parts of the world. I think the reason for this is because when trade between countries and communities is done it is possible to realize efficiencies that are not possible in small groups when only one or two people is doing a certain task.

Not just efficiencies of scale, when trade happens freely, everybody/country does what they do best. This results in maximum output.

Tribalism in African community can not reach economic of scale because they close down the gate to outsiders. This is also true in Hindu and Muslim societies and the reason for backwardness.

European countries and US letting "close culture" in not only create a problem for the local community in the long term. Refusal to assimilate will also create tension to a diverse country.

There can't be true and healthy tribalism anymore within a world of collectivism (capitalism/socialism/feudalism/nationalism/globalism).

[Ringumbau]

None of the above. Resource Based Economy or DEATH.

Bitcoin in the meanwhile.

[giveBTCpls]

Capitalism will evnetually collapse. Automatization is very real and more and more jobs are going to be pushed out of market, leaving thousands and millions of people unemployed for LIFE. Have fun dealing with that.

[Nicolas Dorier]

Capitalism will evnetually collapse. Automatization is very real and more and more jobs are going to be pushed out of market, leaving thousands and millions of people unemployed for LIFE. Have fun dealing with that.

Why is it then, since tractors where invented, and other automation of fields that destroyed agriculture jobs, people always found jobs ? I want your reason.

[wasserman99]

Capitalism and Socialism (which is collectivism) are unnatural rise and fall constructs. Beyond collectivism you'll find self-sufficiency (anarchy), which was the natural state of human being for a million and more years. Civilization (collectivism) is only a short anomaly within the history.

Do you have some good reading about anarchist, because I'd like how they think to solve the problem of property without giving away to a central power the monopoly of violence.
If state does not exist, and I consider something to be my property, but you don't agree. What settle the dispute ?

Historically, before (and beyond) the state, there was self-sufficiency (no trade). But self-sufficiency is only possible within a nuclear community. Patriarchy (organized violence, state and church) destroyed those communities 10'000 years ago.

The best book I know is in German. Gerhard Bott: Die Erfindung der Götter.
Summary in english:

http://gerhardbott.de/das-buch/summary-in-english.html

There are still a very small number of self sufficient communities in Africa. The problem with these kinds of communities is that their standard of living is much lower then even the poorest parts of the world. I think the reason for this is because when trade between countries and communities is done it is possible to realize efficiencies that are not possible in small groups when only one or two people is doing a certain task.

Not just efficiencies of scale, when trade happens freely, everybody/country does what they do best. This results in maximum output.

Another very good point. Although the ability for you to do what you do best somewhat depends on where you live as there are not always jobs available in the industry of what you do best in the area that you live.

[giantdragon]

Capitalism will evnetually collapse. Automatization is very real and more and more jobs are going to be pushed out of market, leaving thousands and millions of people unemployed for LIFE. Have fun dealing with that.

Why is it then, since tractors where invented, and other automation of fields that destroyed agriculture jobs, people always found jobs ? I want your reason.

Explained very well in this thread:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=318001.0

[botany]

Capitalism will evnetually collapse. Automatization is very real and more and more jobs are going to be pushed out of market, leaving thousands and millions of people unemployed for LIFE. Have fun dealing with that.

I remember reading about computers replacing bankers... That doesn't seem to have happened so far. 

[giantdragon]

I remember reading about computers replacing bankers... That doesn't seem to have happened so far. 

Past performance does not guarantee future performance.

[depkotien]

WTO 

[Nicolas Dorier]

Capitalism will evnetually collapse. Automatization is very real and more and more jobs are going to be pushed out of market, leaving thousands and millions of people unemployed for LIFE. Have fun dealing with that.

Why is it then, since tractors where invented, and other automation of fields that destroyed agriculture jobs, people always found jobs ? I want your reason.

Explained very well in this thread:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=318001.0

Indeed, well explained. I agree, on your remark, that the tech elite will not accept the robbery, and that unconditional income will create nothing but speaking monkeys. (in France we already have that actually)
But having a planned economy means that I will not have my free will to do what I want, the time I want and for who I want.
In other word pure slavery, if that happen, I would quickly dive into the black market for trading my skill.
Also, a free market have all the information it needs to adapt itself. Even if temporary disturbance to equilibrium are felt, a planned economy in an excel spreadsheet would miss most of the information and would make disturbance even wider. (Interestingly enough, Argentina Economy minister advocated for spreadsheet run economy http://mises.org/daily/6739/You-Cant-Run-an-Economy-with-Spreadsheets)

However, I don't agree with the premise (the graph).
Even if machine are autonomous, in the meaning that they don't need to be maintained, or can be automatically replaced, we would have jobs.
The invention of trucks have not create lots of job for car repairers.
What it did though, is creating a market where trucks need to be better and better, and more specialized, so they don't become obsolete.
This is what create skills for knowledge workers : the economical incentive for employing knowledge workers is to hedge against obsolescence.

A machine can't adapt itself to the market condition and to the human knowledge that keep expanding, and never will.
Innovations comes from the meeting of ideas into a single mind at the right time.
With the explosion of idea spreading I see more and more opportunity for innovators, and I don't see it stop anytime soon.
Making obsolescence even more dangerous, and thus knowledge needed. A sort of virtuous circle for the knowledge worker, only stopped by skill shortage.
But yes, I expect physical effort jobs being totally extinguished in the long term.

[gts476]

So many communists here, wtf bitches, THIS IS BITCOIN!

[giantdragon]

But having a planned economy means that I will not have my free will to do what I want, the time I want and for who I want.
In other word pure slavery, if that happen, I would quickly dive into the black market for trading my skill.

Most likely countries with planned economies won't repeat USSR's mistake in the future and grant you no-return exit visa. It's better to lose 1 non-loyal man than to fight 1 enemy on own territory.

Also, a free market have all the information it needs to adapt itself. Even if temporary disturbance to equilibrium are felt, a planned economy in an excel spreadsheet would miss most of the information and would make disturbance even wider.

State-wide information system (e.g. Cybersyn) will collect and process all information needed. You should read this book:
http://ricardo.ecn.wfu.edu/~cottrell/socialism_book/

However, I don't agree with the premise (the graph).
Even if machine are autonomous, in the meaning that they don't need to be maintained, or can be automatically replaced, we would have jobs.
The invention of trucks have not create lots of job for car repairers.

You, as many other people, miss the total number of jobs destroyed vs jobs created.

A machine can't adapt itself to the market condition and to the human knowledge that keep expanding, and never will.

Universal robots like Baxter which can be easily reprogrammed to perform another task will completely crush your argument!

So many communists here, wtf bitches, THIS IS BITCOIN!

I don't think so. Socialism ≠ Communism!

[gts476]

So many communists here, wtf bitches, THIS IS BITCOIN!

I don't think so. Socialism ≠ Communism!

Nice try Comrade!

Socialism, a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

Communism, a theory or system of social organization in which all property is owned by the community and each person contributes and receives according to their ability and needs.

Yeah so.....

So Socialism is a function of communism!

Socialism = Ax(Communism)^B + C

No one will fall for your lies you pinko commie bastard!

[giantdragon]

@gts476, the term "socialism" (Marxism) typically describes state ownership on the means of production combined with planned economy, however communism assumes elimination of the money altogether (i.e. everyone can take everything without have to work). Also, good luck to you fighting back desperate unemployed crowd, stupid insane libertarian!

[Ibian]

Stalin called his party the Communist party because he did not want to be associated with the existing socialist parties. They were not socialist enough for him so he wanted to set his own party apart. Socialism and communism are synonyms.

[gts476]

@gts476, the term "socialism" (Marxism) typically describes state ownership on the means of production combined with planned economy, however communism assumes elimination of the money altogether (i.e. everyone can take everything without have to work). Also, good luck to you fighting back desperate unemployed crowd, stupid insane libertarian!

 

[Nicolas Dorier]

Take a look at http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-08-29/employers-arent-just-whining-skills-gap-real, it explains both side, and it reflects what I feel in the software industry.
Unemployment is not created by lack of jobs right now, but by lack of skills.

[giantdragon]

Stalin called his party the Communist party because he did not want to be associated with the existing socialist parties. They were not socialist enough for him so he wanted to set his own party apart. Socialism and communism are synonyms.

You are right, there are a lot of socialist parties around the world and they can significantly differ one from another. Communist party was just USSR version of socialism.
As you know its ideology had a lot of drawbacks and offering this model unchanged again is stupid. Also with the word "socialist" many people associate modern welfare states (which are even worse than USSR's model IMHO).

To remove ambiguity, I prefer to use words "capitalism"/"free market" and "planned economy".

[blumangroup]

Take a look at http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-08-29/employers-arent-just-whining-skills-gap-real, it explains both side, and it reflects what I feel in the software industry.
Unemployment is not created by lack of jobs right now, but by lack of skills.

There are several industries that have permanently shrunk as a result of our latest economic downturn. As a result there is a glut of people that have skills in industries that there is no demand for, so people try to apply for jobs they are not qualified for.