I'm having some doubts about whether it's ethical to make money off of Bitcoin

[sharted]

The stock market is basically the same thing...

No, buying stocks is buying ownership shares in a company, which is tantamount to BUYING THE LABOR OF THE WORKERS. This is also called WAGE SLAVERY. Stock owners = labor owners = slave owners.

The harsh reality is that capitalism has thoroughly corrupted democracy. It has established and solidified the rule of the 1%, and hardened America's dream of social mobility into a neo-feudal caste system from our worst nightmares. Even after Bitcoin has annihilated fiat (3-5 years), the greater evil will remain. The problem our species must now solve is capitalism. Capitalism necessitates organized hierarchy-based violence to function, otherwise it would collapse. Here's what you need to understand: On Earth there is a zero-sum game between violence and reason. As one waxes, the other diminishes.

Bitcoin does not involve the nation-state, which like capitalism, necessitates hierarchy-based violence to exist...

"Premise Four: Civilization is based on a clearly defined and widely accepted yet often unarticulated hierarchy. Violence done by those higher on the hierarchy to those lower is nearly always invisible, that is, unnoticed. When it is noticed, it is fully rationalized. Violence done by those lower on the hierarchy to those higher is unthinkable, and when it does occur is regarded with shock, horror, and the fetishization of the victims."
-Derrick Jensen

If you like reason more than you like violence, join the revolution and melt some or all of your fiat into Bitcoin.

If you like violence more than you like reason, keep on supporting fiat and your local nation-state murder-machine. Also, please kill yourself for the good of humanity. Suicide is the natural ethical choice for any lover of violence.

Related: Sunset of the State



Yours in compassion and solidarity,

All my love,

World Citizen Beliathon

Interesting post. Recently, I read up on Ibogaine and it was clear that money was the only reason it has never been researched properly. Not related to bitcoin but it shows how money now rules our lives, and many people die daily because of it.

To the OP: If you want to send someone $5 million, with them in Australia and yourself in the US, it will cost you about $250,000 in fees alone when using the bank or PayPal. The latter is instant (unless PP decided to be fags; highly likely) but banks take 3-5 days to clear the money. While it's clearing, the banks make interest on your money (and you don't get fuck all). Now if you want to do it with bitcoin, it will cost you about 10 cents and it's instant. No middleman means you don't get ripped off and the banks get nothing. If you wanted to buy something online before bitcoin the only option was credit card or a third party payment site like PP. Now people have a choice, and that choice is innumerably superior to any third party service, why? Because it's free and it's run by people for people, not by people for the greedy fucks at the top of the corporate ladder.

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[Tron]

Am I wrong in thinking Bitcoin is just a tulip bulb scenario in which an ever-increasing number of new investors is required to keep up the hype, and once there are no more greater fools left, it will crash and I will be rich at the expense of many people out there?

Yes, respectfully, you are wrong that it is a tulip bulb scenario.  Tulip bulbs had an interesting property that you could breed them.  The people buying the tulip bulbs had the idea that if they purchased a valuable tulip bulb for breeding, they could make more, sell them, recoup their original investment and then continue to sell more tulip bulbs at pure profit.  The fundamental difference is that the exponential growth was working against them.  The value of a tulip bulb had to collapse.  In bitcoin, it is working FOR you.  

Look at the Bitcoin distribution timeline, and difficulty increases for bitcoin mining.  Both are moving in the same direction to make a bitcoin more valuable.  Now compare that to the geometric increase in breeding of tulip bulbs with nothing but the limits of land, water, and sunlight to limit the growth.  I don't have the stats on how many mathematicians invested in tulip bulbs, but I'd guess none.

The tulip bulb mania is a closer analog to quantitative easing policies of central banks.  It is mathematically unsustainable.  It looks really good for awhile, but it will end in tears.  I don't have the stats on how many mathematicians are still holding fiat currency, but I would hope none.  

Also, don't feel too bad about pawning off your green paper with pictures of dead presidents.  We've all been guilty of the same.

[Ron~Popeil]

Am I wrong in thinking Bitcoin is just a tulip bulb scenario in which an ever-increasing number of new investors is required to keep up the hype, and once there are no more greater fools left, it will crash and I will be rich at the expense of many people out there?

Yes, respectfully, you are wrong that it is a tulip bulb scenario.  Tulip bulbs had an interesting property that you could breed them.  The people buying the tulip bulbs had the idea that if they purchased a valuable tulip bulb for breeding, they could make more, sell them, recoup their original investment and then continue to sell more tulip bulbs at pure profit.  The fundamental difference is that the exponential growth was working against them.  The value of a tulip bulb had to collapse.  In bitcoin, it is working FOR you.  

Look at the Bitcoin distribution timeline, and difficulty increases for bitcoin mining.  Both are moving in the same direction to make a bitcoin more valuable.  Now compare that to the geometric increase in breeding of tulip bulbs with nothing but the limits of land, water, and sunlight to limit the growth.  I don't have the stats on how many mathematicians invested in tulip bulbs, but I'd guess none.

The tulip bulb mania is a closer analog to quantitative easing policies of central banks.  It is mathematically unsustainable.  It looks really good for awhile, but it will end in tears.  I don't have the stats on how many mathematicians are still holding fiat currency, but I would hope none.  

Also, don't feel too bad about pawning off your green paper with pictures of dead presidents.  We've all been guilty of the same.

Tulip bulbs were a bit more like Beanie Babies than bit coins. Anyone else remember those?

[Beliathon]

Now if you want to do it with bitcoin, it will cost you about 10 cents and it's instant. No middleman means you don't get ripped off and the banks get nothing. If you wanted to buy something online before bitcoin the only option was credit card or a third party payment site like PP. Now people have a choice, and that choice is innumerably superior to any third party service, why? Because it's free and it's run by people for people, not by people for the greedy fucks at the top of the corporate ladder.

Rock on, you are making me wet you reasonable mofo.

[ampere9765]

It's not like buying land and charging someone rent, or cooking a meal and setting it down in front of someone at a restaurant.

To be honest, I don't really feel that good about the idea of owning land and charging someone rent to use it, either. But that's just me.

[Joe_Bauers]

Everything I have written on this site

This is somewhat like the intrigue I usually feel like when reading your posts
v v v

Who are you???

[Ron~Popeil]

Now if you want to do it with bitcoin, it will cost you about 10 cents and it's instant. No middleman means you don't get ripped off and the banks get nothing. If you wanted to buy something online before bitcoin the only option was credit card or a third party payment site like PP. Now people have a choice, and that choice is innumerably superior to any third party service, why? Because it's free and it's run by people for people, not by people for the greedy fucks at the top of the corporate ladder.

Rock on, you are making me wet you reasonable mofo.

Pics or it didn't happen. 

[Meni Rosenfeld]

Bitcoin is just a tulip bulb scenario in which an ever-increasing number of new investors is required to keep up the hype, and once there are no more greater fools left, it will crash
...
it's not like I'm investing in something that provides a real value to people.
...
a tiny bit of value... in a best-case scenario... which is highly unlikely to happen.

If you believe this, then it is unethical for you to profit from Bitcoin.

But, in this case, it is also silly for you to believe you will profit by buying bitcoins, as the logical conclusion is the Bitcoin will go down in value soon.

Luckily for the rest of us, we understand that Bitcoin is a revolutionary technology that will bring the world to a new era of transparency, free trade and personal empowerment; and that any profit we will make while dealing with it is a token reward for our contribution to the betterment of humanity.

[PolarPoint]

I understand your thinking. You feel you need to offer something tangible to someone in return for money, the you feel good about earning it. You don't feel so good about making money off money because you gave nothing back. That is not the case.

When you invest in something and lease it out or sell it at a higher price, you actually took a risk and you are rewarded for the risk. Some would argue that this not productive to the society like manufacturing a product. I see absorbing risk for someone else is a service.

[Cryptopher]

It's okay OP, I can relieve you of your burden should you be the feeling the guilt from making a load of cash.

But seriously, what you have to remember is that people are entering this market knowing that they are buying a volatile asset (with respect to fiat). Okay some people enter the market with the belief that it is a guaranteed money maker, but they panic when the price tanks a little - that's their decision, not yours.

If you don't buy the coin then somebody else will.

[Abdussamad]

Bitcoin is just a way to reverse the flow of wealth back to western countries. The FED QE is designed to devalue the dollar to make US exports competitive again. The ECB is doing something similar in Europe with its monetary easing. There is a small problem with these moves. The US and Europeans depend on the strength of their currencies to lord over the world. But now that the currencies are getting weaker it also means that they have less power than they used to have. And it's going to get worse.

You can see the first examples of this in the London property market which has turned into a bubble fueled by foreigners seeking British assets AND being able to afford them due to the weaker pound. Where are the natives going to live once the best land is owned by foreigners? How are you going to counter the rise of China? Bitcoin then becomes the answer. Plan B if you will. Set it loose on the world and watch people buy into it. All the early adopters are in the west and now they are set to become filthy rich.

Also all this stuff about the world becoming a better place because of bitcoin is just bullshit. People don't change. We had war when everyone used gold as money. We will have war when everyone uses bitcoin. There has already been an attempt to fuel the war in Ukraine using bitcoin.

[keithers]

You mean like a ponzi or pyramid scheme?  Supply and demand drives the price.  If all buy and sell stopped at one point in time the price will remain frozen.  But if all started selling at one time, the price plummets.  The rawest form of supply/demand economics there is.  Are there winners and losers?  Of course, depending on how you define "winning" and "losing".

i think his main concern for bitcoin is that it is neither a physical object and isn't backed by anything tangible or real.

can't we say the same about buying stock though?

Stock is backed theoretically by the company that you are purchasing the stock, but then again, I guess you could say that about anything that you purchase that you don't actually put your hands on and hold...

[franky1]

Am I wrong in thinking Bitcoin is just a tulip bulb scenario

tulip bulbs are grown, and can be regrown at a unlimited amount. the reason tulips succeeded at first was that it was new and everyone wanted it, but once everyone was growing them, they realised there was no limit and that there was no control on growth.

bitcoin is not a tulip. there is a limit and control on growth meaning there is a easy to calculate supply that cannot be messed with or over-saturated..
[/quote]

in which an ever-increasing number of new investors is required to keep up the hype, and once there are no more greater fools left, it will crash and I will be rich at the expense of many people out there?

your talking about pyramids and ponzi's. because there is a limited supply you cannot endlessly just hand out worthless coin to new customers and force those customers to sell it down to a next person. bitcoin is a limited supply asset, so those buying it not only have more benefit to hold it rather then sell. but they can use it on atleast 50k merchants so far, so its not a pass-the-parcel.(rob peter to pay paul)
 pyramids would be if today a guy made bitcoin for $1 and he called himself the top dog, and he had 5 distributors who contractually sold for $2. and each of those 5 had 5 of their own resellers who sold for $4.. and so on and so on.
but bitcoin does not have this hierarchy, everyone today are buying and selling to each other at the $600 average. there is no top dog supplier selling cheap and layers of people below him selling at profit.
[/quote]

I mean, it's not like I'm investing in something that provides a real value to people. It's not like buying land and charging someone rent, or cooking a meal and setting it down in front of someone at a restaurant.

Yes, I know there is a tiny bit of value in what bitcoin offers that the old systems don't, but even that can only be realized in a best-case scenario (price stabilizes for years on end), which is highly unlikely to happen.

Tell me why I'm wrong and why I shouldn't feel bad for making a lot of money off of BTC.

you seem to be reading the propaganda of 2012, from noobs. you are not reading the actual real information from proper researched sources. governments, tax offices have all validated bitcoins features of being an asset and not vapour/monopoly money.

the question to ask yourself is
would you trade in gold, antiques, art, cars and other assets. and is the problem simply that you feel because you cant touch it with your finger you dont understand it?

bitcoin is not a physical asset but a digital asset. it is as valid, legal, useable and tradable as what stocks, shares and gold contracts are. but with the extra features as being used as digital bank notes. and the extra benefits of not being controlled by a 'top dog' /government/entity

everyone is on the same level. its what true money should be

[Soros Shorts]

If I buy stock in a company, that company provides a service that people pay going-rate prices for and then proceed to take enjoyment from.

If you are buying an IPO, yes, the money that you pay for the IPO shares goes to the company and they can use it to grow their business.

However, if you buy the company's shares from the secondary market (i.e. from some seller on some stock exchange through your brokerage) then none of the money you pay goes directly to the company. Most of it goes to the seller of the stock, and some goes to the brokerage and exchange for fees and commissions. You are only helping the company indirectly by pushing up their stock price ever so slightly.

[Robert Paulson]

Am I wrong in thinking Bitcoin is just a tulip bulb scenario in which an ever-increasing number of new investors is required to keep up the hype, and once there are no more greater fools left, it will crash and I will be rich at the expense of many people out there?

I mean, it's not like I'm investing in something that provides a real value to people. It's not like buying land and charging someone rent, or cooking a meal and setting it down in front of someone at a restaurant.

Yes, I know there is a tiny bit of value in what bitcoin offers that the old systems don't, but even that can only be realized in a best-case scenario (price stabilizes for years on end), which is highly unlikely to happen.

Tell me why I'm wrong and why I shouldn't feel bad for making a lot of money off of BTC.

if you go by that rational then you can't trade anything.
anyone who bought stocks in 2007-2008 lost alot of money and the people who sold them those stocks got rich.
same thing goes for gold in 1980.
as long as you present bitcoin to people truthfully and they agree based on their own judgement to trade fiat for bitcoin then the deal is fair.

bitcoin's value grows not because there are greater fools paying more for it but because its adoption grows, as more businesses accept it it becomes useful to more people.
and because people lose faith in fiat currencies and prefer to hold bitcoin.

[Ron~Popeil]

Am I wrong in thinking Bitcoin is just a tulip bulb scenario in which an ever-increasing number of new investors is required to keep up the hype, and once there are no more greater fools left, it will crash and I will be rich at the expense of many people out there?

I mean, it's not like I'm investing in something that provides a real value to people. It's not like buying land and charging someone rent, or cooking a meal and setting it down in front of someone at a restaurant.

Yes, I know there is a tiny bit of value in what bitcoin offers that the old systems don't, but even that can only be realized in a best-case scenario (price stabilizes for years on end), which is highly unlikely to happen.

Tell me why I'm wrong and why I shouldn't feel bad for making a lot of money off of BTC.

if you go by that rational then you can't trade anything.
anyone who bought stocks in 2007-2008 lost alot of money and the people who sold them those stocks got rich.
same thing goes for gold in 1980.
as long as you present bitcoin to people truthfully and they agree based on their own judgement to trade fiat for bitcoin then the deal is fair.

bitcoin's value grows not because there are greater fools paying more for it but because its adoption grows, as more businesses accept it it becomes useful to more people.
and because people lose faith in fiat currencies and prefer to hold bitcoin.

Well said. There is a chance of losing money on anything you invest in. Bit coin is not unique in that. 

[Beliathon]

Who are you???

Just one more random nobody who has suffered enough to become disillusioned of their government-sponsored programming. My anti-theism dovetailed nicely into anti-capitalism. I don't much like cults or pseudo-sciences.

Here are some wise words relevant to this thread:

"I have always thought the principal utility of Bitcoin is that it renders any sort of mandatory taxation model unviable. I am firmly persuaded that as Bitcoin takes hold taxes will have to return to what they were in ancient Greece : willing donations to the state treasury, and something people openly took pride in. This shift will bring about all the improvements we were vainly trying to achieve in the old money paradigm, such as public accountability and reasonable expenditure in one fell swoop : good luck getting people to donate to the police department if they don’t like the police. And good luck with the welfare programs, for sure.

Add to that a shift of contracts from the old model to the new and suddenly you have - and I mean this quite literally - a new Renaissance. Man at the center of all things. Man, the willing enforcer of his own promises. Man, the willing contributor to the wealth of an obviously much reduced, but by that fact probably much nicer, lovable and huggable cute little state.

I’m crying with joy over here, my toes are curling in untold glee, I have little doubt that I shall live to see this, all of it. And for the first time in many, many years I feel again like the world is worth living in."
-Mercia Popescu (source)

[Elwar]

Welcome to Bitcoin, I suggest you read the white paper.

https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf

If you do not see the value provided by Bitcoin, you are not paying attention.

[master-P]

Buying bitcoin is not without risk. So while you may feel bad that you're making a profit when someone buys your coins for a higher price, you could have lost money if the price dropped a lot and you had to sell.

[Ron~Popeil]

Buying bitcoin is not without risk. So while you may feel bad that you're making a profit when someone buys your coins for a higher price, you could have lost money if the price dropped a lot and you had to sell.

Buying anything is risky. Even holding dollars is a losing proposition. People seem to think risk is somehow unique to bit coin.