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Author Topic: Legal complaint against bitcoinica.com  (Read 12428 times)
P4man
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February 17, 2012, 08:36:10 PM
 #141

Someone help me understand.


Big difference between
"I demand you make your information public for the safety of all Bitcoin users"

and

"I have submitted a complaint against you to the authorities. Now tell me some information."


As I understood, the OP had made several such requests and got nothing. Maybe I misread that? Even so, fact is even now Zoutoung doesnt even want to say the country his business is registered in (let alone all the other thing his customers ought to know), that should raise red flags and alarm bells all over.

Dont get me wrong, I have no reason to assume he will scam anyone, but I cant see any reason why Zoutoung wouldnt put this information on his website either (AFAIK, he is legally obliged to in several countries, among them Germany). Instead we have a 17 year old wizzkid controlling what most likely is a small fortune in dollars and btc, perhaps more than anyone else in the bitcoin world, and we have no clue who he is, what company is running the show, nothing.

That he says he will say so soon is simply not good enough by any stretch.

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chsados
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February 17, 2012, 08:38:49 PM
 #142

Parapain opened up a channel to the police in regards to a bitcoin business. If anything, he has an opportunity to learn directly from working officials on bitcoin laws in Spain. When everyone's done being angry and realizes that there is nothing the Spanish inquisition can do about a business in Singapore, why not ask Parapain to relay some questions to the police (since they're already looking into it)?

Use opportunities people. The door's already open, let's just walk through it.

I think everyone understands the little significance of his legal filing.  Users are merely outraged at the silliness/hipocracy shown. 
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February 17, 2012, 08:44:15 PM
 #143

Wow. Is it that hard to find a different Spanish language translator?

How you like it if someone filed a report with the police that Bitcoin Magazine is a scam to collect advertising and subscription revenue without delivering?


 Other than that, there is absolutely nothing wrong with inquiring to the police to look into something you personally feel could be a scam


I see how your magazine could be a scam, should I file a police report, just in case?  That would be ridiculous, and borderline harassment.

I feel like you are defending him because of concerns about your magazine's brand, but you would feel differently if you weren't preparing to do business with him.
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February 17, 2012, 08:46:21 PM
 #144

@zhoutong thanks for answering some questions. Can you show us some paperwork on bitcoinica.com, like company registration with the local authorities, and your position in the company ? Contract or similar will do, you can blackout very sensitive information.

Can you do the same for your "business" Huh

indeed but that would be only for my person, as i don't have a company. please keep on topic dude

do it..

you have been asked multiple times, yet wont do it!
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February 17, 2012, 08:52:38 PM
 #145

@zhoutong thanks for answering some questions. Can you show us some paperwork on bitcoinica.com, like company registration with the local authorities, and your position in the company ? Contract or similar will do, you can blackout very sensitive information.

Can you do the same for your "business" Huh

indeed but that would be only for my person, as i don't have a company. please keep on topic dude

do it..

you have been asked multiple times, yet wont do it!

Dude, give the man a break, it's not easy to get €300 to have a registered company, mind you...

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February 17, 2012, 08:55:21 PM
 #146

Someone help me understand.

I see some people here raving against the OP; to some extend even the same people that accuse(d) Butterfly Labs from running a scam and (rightfully) demanding correct information about the company's registration, legal status, location, contact data etc. Some even going so far as putting a bounty on pictures or video of the people behind the alleged scam. Butterfly lab at that time probably held less than a few $1000 of customers money, all of which was protected by paypal policy anyway.

Then we have Bitcoinica, a financial service provider which holds significantly larger sums of money and btcs with zero customer protection and operating in a legal vacuum. All we know about the company is .. nothing (afaik), other than a pseudonym of the guy running it. Its not even disclosed what country its operating from, what legal status the company, if any, has, nothing. Not even the name!

I dont know, but demanding such information is absolutely the right thing to do IMO. If said company is not forth coming with that info, I see no harm in pursuing legal options to ensure Bitcoinica's customers at the very least know who to sue if something goes terribly wrong.

I certainly hope no one here will have to thank paraipan one day for getting that info out, but its not exactly unthinkable. Have we learned nothing from mybitcoin.com?

my god man, have you not read this thread?  nobody disagrees with what you said above.  yes we expect bitcoinica to publish proper docs.  zhou has told us mulitple times it is coming very soon.  we are outraged in the manner OP has gone about it.

@zhoutong thanks for answering some questions. Can you show us some paperwork on bitcoinica.com, like company registration with the local authorities, and your position in the company ? Contract or similar will do, you can blackout very sensitive information.

Can you do the same for your "business" Huh

indeed but that would be only for my person, as i don't have a company. please keep on topic dude

do it..

you have been asked multiple times, yet wont do it!

Dude, give the man a break, it's not easy to get €300 to have a registered company, mind you...

i dont actually expect him to, nor do i think he should.  im just trying to point out how hypocritical this guy is.
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February 17, 2012, 09:00:07 PM
 #147

I see how your magazine could be a scam, should I file a police report, just in case?  That would be ridiculous, and borderline harassment.
If you think the magazine could be a scam, you should ask your police to check into it (unless you're someone like yourself or myself who would probably just check into it ourselves and maybe do a better job than the police).

I feel like you are defending him because of concerns about your magazine's brand, but you would feel differently if you weren't preparing to do business with him.
Not at all. I am thinking with a very clear head, and here's why:

Zhou Tong did the same thing parapipain is doing but to Cryptoxchange in a thread here, literally the same exact thing, and later apologized for it after I showed him the details and did the research myself. The only difference is that I cleaned that mess up and got the people he did it against to forgive him for potentially costing them business. I see this as just bad Karma for Zhou and a good reminder of how the price of Bitcoin affects people's emotions.

Forget what you think my reasoning is for defending this principle, and instead focus on this point: Paripipain is not a 'traitor' to bitcoin. If so, Zhou Tong is also a traitor himself.

Chew on that for a while.



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February 17, 2012, 09:26:08 PM
 #148

Ahhhhhhh so Parapain has something to do with crypto exchange...


I see where this stupidity comes from...

For Canadians by Canadians: Canada's Bitcoin Community - https://www.coinforum.ca/
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February 17, 2012, 09:32:34 PM
 #149

Ahhhhhhh so Parapain has something to do with crypto exchange...


I see where this stupidity comes from...

how did you learn this?
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February 17, 2012, 09:46:04 PM
 #150

Ahhhhhhh so Parapain has something to do with crypto exchange...

No. Zhou had suspicions about CryptoX which he raised in this forum when they first launched.  I agreed, the announcement was misleading, but they clarified and all was well.

This is the proper way to deal with this situation.

I consider raising suspicions in the forum and filling a complaint with the police to be whole different ballparks.
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February 17, 2012, 11:17:36 PM
 #151

Ahhhhhhh so Parapain has something to do with crypto exchange...

No. Zhou had suspicions about CryptoX which he raised in this forum when they first launched.  I agreed, the announcement was misleading, but they clarified and all was well.

This is the proper way to deal with this situation.

I consider raising suspicions in the forum and filling a complaint with the police to be whole different ballparks.
+1
Clear heads agree
Otoh
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February 17, 2012, 11:46:22 PM
 #152

Quote from: Otoh on Today at 22:59:28

Quote from: paraipan on Today at 22:52:17

Quote from: Otoh on Today at 22:50:59


Quote from: paraipan on Today at 22:23:00


Hi, sorry to bother, i will send you a copy of the complaint on bitcoinica where my name and last name is stated as promised. My email is redacted@gmail.com, what is yours, i will not use the forum messaging for this. Do you have an OTC market profile or just the forum account.
my otc is http://bitcoin-otc.com/viewratingdetail.php?nick=paraipan
 

Waiting for your response, thanks


Hi, my email is otoh@hushmail.com
nope as yet I haven't made an OTC market profile
Thanks, Otoh



ok got it, anything else you may have to check on your reputation ?
you can check mine at http://paraipan.myopenid.com
 

I don't care to disclose any info, the offer to provide an unredacted copy of your denuncia came from you, so if you do so or not is up to you also, I shall check out if this document is filed publicly & if so I shall request a copy of the original

Cheers, Otoh



Ok, i'm not convinced really, you put up a while ago a SR account for sale, just checked up you post history, and give me a hushmail email.
I will send you a redacted copy where my names and last name show up only.




Otoh

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February 17, 2012, 11:59:46 PM
 #153

@Otoh great, i send it to you as requested so posting it here doesn't matter, it's already in the OP.
Do you mind removing my email from your post ?

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February 18, 2012, 12:04:18 AM
 #154

@Otoh great, i send it to you as requested so posting it here doesn't matter, it's already in the OP.
Do you mind removing my email from your post ?

sure np


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RaggedMonk
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February 18, 2012, 12:13:31 AM
 #155

I think paraipan's full name is Alexandru Bogdan Semenciuc, if it helps in trying to find the police report.
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February 18, 2012, 01:41:31 AM
 #156

This is going out of hand, i'm locking this thread until further notice Undecided

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February 20, 2012, 01:45:59 PM
 #157

MtGox response:

Quote
Mt.Gox Support, Feb 20 12:24 (JST):
Hello,

Our apologies for the delay in response due to the weekend. Thank you very much for the heads up. We will keep this in mind. According to our new Terms of Service, all of our users are now supposed to comply with AML regulations and we are a legally registered company. We are now working on obtaining a financial service license from the Japanese FSA. Thank you very much for your continued support to Mt.Gox.

Thanks,

MtGox.com Team

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