NXT/NEM or Monero/Bytecoin?

[Keyboard-Mash]

Plus, sending coins to an exchange with payment_id potentially breaks anonymity in one way.

Using an exchange based off an email address/IP address breaks anonymity for most people anyways. There's a line where the level of anonymity provided by Monero can never really break .. without the "exchange" itself in your example providing its own end of anonymity .. what can be done? They're working on getting an I2P c++ router for use in the protocol to at least address some identity issues.

You still have the ability to find someone OTC if you're looking for anonymity .. no payment id needed.

I'm making the statement that Monero can never force you to be 100% anonymous 100% of the time .. you're given the choice to be anonymous and/or private with your transactions to the extent that you would like. It's not the be-all-end-all of anonymity/privacy .. but it's a big head start.

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[Este Nuno]

So what I'm gathering from reading this thread is that:

Monero is a good solid coin with the best anonymity features and linear distribution curve. Seems to be a better version of bitcoin with the slight issue of potentially being dominated by botnets(although Satoshi didn't' think botnets would be a problem for bitcoin when it was cpu only).

NXT/NEM is the one with potentially groundbreaking features but it remains to be seen how it's used and how the public accepts this new style of distribution. If businesses and the public were educated on the potential benefits of using NXT it would have a good chance to make some real headway.

Interestingly enough it almost seems like if bitcoin were to decline/fade away that both these technologies might even be able to coexist successfully. Monero replaces bitcoin as the standard cryptocurrency for black market transactions, store of value, and general use. And NXT can capture the blue oceans of new markets and new uses for modern business and asset exchanges.

[lopalcar]

So what I'm gathering from reading this thread is that:

Monero is a good solid coin with the best anonymity features and linear distribution curve. Seems to be a better version of bitcoin with the slight issue of potentially being dominated by botnets(although Satoshi didn't' think botnets would be a problem for bitcoin when it was cpu only).

NXT/NEM is the one with potentially groundbreaking features but it remains to be seen how it's used and how the public accepts this new style of distribution. If businesses and the public were educated on the potential benefits of using NXT it would have a good chance to make some real headway.

Interestingly enough it almost seems like if bitcoin were to decline/fade away that both these technologies might even be able to coexist successfully. Monero replaces bitcoin as the standard cryptocurrency for black market transactions, store of value, and general use. And NXT can capture the blue oceans of new markets and new uses for modern business and asset exchanges.

Good synthesis, this is more or less the point in my opinion too, although I believe that anonimity stuff could be implemeted in nxt systems too, anyways is good to have monero too in the case a fatal bug appears in nxt "same that could happens in BTC"

Botnets will always be an issue, if not cpu botnets, gpu farms, distribution will never be fair because fair is impossible, world isn't fair... I don't even think nem is fair, fair is become compensated proportionally to your work I think, I'm starting to think that for many people fair means obtain tons of money for have a beauty face...

[dewdeded]

Plus, sending coins to an exchange with payment_id potentially breaks anonymity in one way.

Also, it's very annoying that I must generate a new wallet to create a new address.

For this reason, there are operating full anon exchanges on Hidden Services at the main two Dark Nets (I2P & TOR).
Probably there will be more of these services established, as the (full) coin-privacy-movement grows.

[jabo38]

I'm not familiar with Monero.  I'm going with the assumption that it cannot compare with Nxt, in technical innovation.

Nxt, as mentioned, as has terrible distribution.  There may had been 73 original wallets but only 20 wallets invested the 1.5 BTC limit (this was before the November boom).  I'm going with a haunch, since it was such an obscure IPO without taint analysis, that those 20 wallets were probably only owned by 5 people with sockpuppet accounts.

IIRC - people who invested 1.5 BTC had received either 40 to 50 million NxT.  That means there are easily sockpuppet masters with close to $14 million USD in NxT.  These people will be billionaires if NxT rivals Bitcoin in capitalization (even wealthier than Satoshi).

Ethically - the last coin I would invest in would be NxT, you're contributing to some whale's get quick rich fund.




NxT did attract an amazing community but it all went down south after people realized how screwed up the distribution was  and the solution resulted in NEM, which is entering open Alpha by June 25.

NEM has been distributed to 3000 stakeholders and taint analysis was used to remove hundreds of sock puppets.  There may still be sockpuppets in NEM but, realistically, it's an unprecedented unparalleled distribution compared to every other coin in existence.

Every coin is dominated by less than 50 real people (more often it's less than a dozen people, the developer and his friends).

 NEM is unprecedented and will launch with several thousand stakeholders.  Even if there are 200, 500 or 1000 sock puppets (unlikely due to anti-sock puppet measures), NEM still has thousands of real unique persons.  That is compared to the average crypto these days where a dozen or less people own everything.

There are a ton of haters of NXT because of its distribution.  But hands down NXT is without a doubt the slickest thing in crypto right now and by far the best thing to come along since Bitcoin.  Ripple is up there too but is not a coin and is more of like a payment transfer system.  

Monero/Blackcoin/Cryptocoin are nice and are also better than bitcoin in many ways as far as what is under the hood, but won't do anything much that bitcoin can't do now or will be able to do in the future.  Right now some seriously well connected and intelligent hackers/developers are making "dark wallet" for bitcoin.  It is in alpha now and can be downloaded and played with.  When it comes out, it will give anonymity to bitcoin.  At that point people will have a choice, use Blackcoin for anonymity or Bitcoin.  One of these has a huge network, tons of connections and tons of end points for users.  One doesn't.  

Any bitcoin clone is a one trick pony.  Those clones often just add one feature.  If said feature is really important and people like it, it WILL be incorporated or hacked into bitcoin someway.  This is a very slow process.

NXT on the other hand has lots of features.  Right now it has aliases, leasing of NXT, fast block times that are meant to get much faster, messaging, an asset exchange and much more, and much more coming soon.  All that and in a nice package.  Right now it has high fees, but that should come down later.  Anything that any other coin can do, NXT can and probably will incorporate.  For bitcoin, it has to be a big deal for it to be added, but for NXT, everything can be added and is being added that people want.  One thing NXT can't add though, is a good narrative of how it started.  Many pros on this forum won't touch NXT despite it being leagues ahead of the rest.  

That is where NEM comes in.  Yes, it hasn't come out yet, and the first Alpha Alpha for testing won't be out until June 25, but it does have serious developers, as in as many as 8 working on it right now.  Not one dude like many of these other "privacy" coins.  NEM code is written from scratch too and unlike NXT is being tested and tested part by part so that it will be very easy to build on.  Devs regularly post their test outputs. On top of that, the NEM community has done everything very transparently and cleanly.  I am seriously putting my money on NEM, and when the big shots that constantly cry that they won't touch NXT because it wasn't "fair" look at NEM, what can they say?  Actually, with NEM having up to 3000 holders, I am thinking that many of the old timers crying foul about NXT slipped in and got a share of NEM themselves.  

[darkota]

NEM/NXT will never ever make it far. Wanna know why? It's not fair distribution, only the IPO/original investors get the majority of the coins, not to mention that the majority of the "stakeholders" are sockpuppet accounts, I even have 3 accounts that have a 3 btc stake in NEM.....not to mention those people with 10, 20, 30 sockpuppet accounts that they used to get stake in NEM(already sold the stake so Idc anymore). That makes NEM no different from NXT....

 Everyone is left hanging in the dust, it's way way way way x10000 more unfair than even an instamine...


Not to mention the other 99 problems with PoS coins.

[Momimaus]

NEM/NXT will never ever make it far. Wanna know why? It's not fair distribution, only the IPO/original investors get the majority of the coins, not to mention that the majority of the "stakeholders" are sockpuppet accounts, I even have 3 accounts that have a 3 btc stake in NEM.....not to mention those people with 10, 20, 30 sockpuppet accounts that they used to get stake in NEM(already sold the stake so Idc anymore). That makes NEM no different from NXT....

 Everyone is left hanging in the dust, it's way way way way x10000 more unfair than even an instamine...


Not to mention the other 99 problems with PoS coins.

hahaha and now you want to tell us POW is the future. And it´s better that miners invest 10k+ for equipment and they get all the money. 
Bro POW will never become mainstream. And i don´t mean BTC-mainstream, I mean everyday Joe´s mainstream. NEVER EVER. POW is dying.

[darkota]

NEM/NXT will never ever make it far. Wanna know why? It's not fair distribution, only the IPO/original investors get the majority of the coins, not to mention that the majority of the "stakeholders" are sockpuppet accounts, I even have 3 accounts that have a 3 btc stake in NEM.....not to mention those people with 10, 20, 30 sockpuppet accounts that they used to get stake in NEM(already sold the stake so Idc anymore). That makes NEM no different from NXT....

 Everyone is left hanging in the dust, it's way way way way x10000 more unfair than even an instamine...


Not to mention the other 99 problems with PoS coins.

hahaha and now you want to tell us POW is the future. And it´s better that miners invest 10k+ for equipment and they get all the money.  
Bro POW will never become mainstream. And i don´t mean BTC-mainstream, I mean everyday Joe´s mainstream. NEVER EVER. POW is dying.

Ok, keep thinking that. Would you like to bet about it? No average joe in their right mind, would buy a coin like NXT or NEM, where 99% of the stakeholders are sockpuppet accounts for a few people, so they could dump on the exchange. That's 1000x worse than an instamine or even a hidden premine.

NXT is just a distributed exchange, like Ripple..not an actual currency or anything close.

[Momimaus]

NEM/NXT will never ever make it far. Wanna know why? It's not fair distribution, only the IPO/original investors get the majority of the coins, not to mention that the majority of the "stakeholders" are sockpuppet accounts, I even have 3 accounts that have a 3 btc stake in NEM.....not to mention those people with 10, 20, 30 sockpuppet accounts that they used to get stake in NEM(already sold the stake so Idc anymore). That makes NEM no different from NXT....

 Everyone is left hanging in the dust, it's way way way way x10000 more unfair than even an instamine...


Not to mention the other 99 problems with PoS coins.

hahaha and now you want to tell us POW is the future. And it´s better that miners invest 10k+ for equipment and they get all the money.  
Bro POW will never become mainstream. And i don´t mean BTC-mainstream, I mean everyday Joe´s mainstream. NEVER EVER. POW is dying.

Ok, keep thinking that. Would you like to bet about it? No average joe in their right mind, would buy a coin like NXT or NEM, where 99% of the stakeholders are sockpuppet accounts for a few people, so they could dump on the exchange. That's 1000x worse than an instamine or even a hidden premine.

NXT is just a distributed exchange, like Ripple..not an actual currency or anything close.

Hey buying NXT or NEM is just like buying a share on stock exchange. But POW is buying something a computer made for nothing. What do you think Joe is familiar with?

[devphp]

No average joe in their right mind, would buy a coin like NXT or NEM, where 99% of the stakeholders are sockpuppet accounts for a few people

haha, now they go even after NEM, which was supposed to be fairly distributed.
Like BCNext said, you just can't distribute fairly to all 7 bln. population of the earth, there will always be someone who was left out. Hence, no matter how fairly it's distributed, someone will always complain it's not fair to him personally, thus it doesn't matter if it's 73 or 4000 initial stakeholders, both systems will be criticized regardless.

[TaunSew]

NxT may had 73 but only 20 invested the full amount and such an obscure IPO (and no taint analysis) likely meant that 20 contained a lot of sock puppets.  I wouldn't be surprised if it was just 5 people and they now own $8+ million each.

 That is in contrast to NEM where population statistics were made available and taint analysis was conducted afterwards, without prior announcement, and every stake receives the same amount.

No one can have distribution to every person on the planet - this is a logical fallacy rhetorical argument repeated by NxT bagholders to excuse their messed up distribution and price manipulation.   An additional fallacy is trying to compare a distribution of 20 big wallets versus 3000, in a community where most cryptos are still 50%+ premined or (in NxT's case) dominated by less than 30 people.  A distribution of 3000 is unprecedented.  There are other coins, which started after NEM, which copied NEM's distribution model but implemented an inferior version thereof (not checking for sockpuppets, smaller distribution, et al).

[Este Nuno]

Can someone explain to me why a PoW coin where miners put up their money/resources(equipment/energy) is inherently more fair than these alternative ways of distributing stake at the beginning? The main issue seems to be sockpuppets, which is understandable, but other than that is there an obvious distinction I'm missing?

I'm not a miner, so to me when I want to invest in a coin that I feel has potential I'm buying in at some point with my own money. So from my perspective, it doesn't really matter whether the initial stake was created by PoW or distributed some other way. PoW coins seem to be in the best interest of people who have already invested in mining equipment, but to people who haven't it generally seems like a waste of energy.

The way I see it is I could mine early on in a coin if I had the knowledge and the resources to do so, and on the other hand I could buy a stake/sign up early enough in a distribution cycle to receive a stake in a coin. The two methods both reward whoever gets in early, but that seems to be consistent across every cryptocurrency anyway.

[TaunSew]

Can someone explain to me why a PoW coin where miners put up their money/resources(equipment/energy) is inherently more fair than these alternative ways of distributing stake at the beginning? The main issue seems to be sockpuppets, which is understandable, but other than that is there an obvious distinction I'm missing?

I'm not a miner, so to me when I want to invest in a coin that I feel has potential I'm buying in at some point with my own money. So from my perspective, it doesn't really matter whether the initial stake was created by PoW or distributed some other way. PoW coins seem to be in the best interest of people who have already invested in mining equipment, but to people who haven't it generally seems like a waste of energy.

The way I see it is I could mine early on in a coin if I had the knowledge and the resources to do so, and on the other hand I could buy a stake/sign up early enough in a distribution cycle to receive a stake in a coin. The two methods both reward whoever gets in early, but that seems to be consistent across every cryptocurrency anyway.

Mentioning PoW is a joke - you almost don't see PoW coins coming out anymore - this is in contrast to six months ago when they were still the rage.  New PoW coins always get destroyed by a small number of miners who dump in order to pay for their electrical costs and overhead.

[devphp]

Can someone explain to me why a PoW coin where miners put up their money/resources(equipment/energy) is inherently more fair than these alternative ways of distributing stake at the beginning?

They can't explain that. Suppose, someone wants to get into bitcoin now, or any other coin from the top 10, they have to spend money to buy, can't mine anything with their normal laptop or even a gamer's computer. You have to buy either ASICs or buy coins at exchanges. But it's not fair! Someone could mine bitcoin with their office computer for years before it got to this stage! So, yeah, mostly people are pissed off because they weren't in the IPO for PoS coins, but they can't voice their complaint openly. Their ego prevents them from eating their pride and buying at exchanges at low prices while they last. They end up buying later at a higher price or not buying at all and missing the opportunity.

[Este Nuno]

Can someone explain to me why a PoW coin where miners put up their money/resources(equipment/energy) is inherently more fair than these alternative ways of distributing stake at the beginning?

They can't explain that. Suppose, someone wants to get into bitcoin now, or any other coin from the top 10, they have to spend money to buy, can't mine anything with their normal laptop or even a gamer's computer. You have to buy either ASICs or buy coins at exchanges. But it's not fair! Someone could mine bitcoin with their office computer for years before it got to this stage! So, yeah, mostly people are pissed off because they weren't in the IPO for PoS coins, but they can't voice their complaint openly. Their ego prevents them from eating their pride and buying at exchanges at low prices while they last. They end up buying later at a higher price or not buying at all and missing the opportunity.

It's all simple risk vs reward with both systems I guess. There doesn't seem to be any tangible difference between PoW and PoS initial distribution other than PoS clearly being the more advanced and efficient tech.

Before this thread I just kind of assumed all this talk about NXT ect having major problems with the distribution method had something behind it. But it's really just fundamental capitalism, the capital takes the risk of funding and is rewarded proportionally. Just as people who choose to mine a new PoW coin are risking their time and their electricity.

It's actually kind of interesting how the community seems to be ignorant to the fact that bitcoin and other coins are fundamentally distributed in a similar if not even less fair way since you need both the technical knowledge to mine as well as access to affordable electricity.

[devphp]

It's actually kind of interesting how the community seems to be ignorant to the fact that bitcoin and other coins are fundamentally distributed in a similar if not even less fair way since you need both the technical knowledge to mine as well as access to affordable electricity.

Well, not the entire community is ignorant for sure. With each passing day more and more of the community is getting it that PoS is the future, just look at the number of PoW/PoS hybrids and pure PoS alts that popped out in 2014. There is just this old school miners mentality taking its roots a few years ago that is hard for people to overcome in their minds, but progress cannot be stopped, change is inevitable. Adapt yourself or die out, this is a basic natural principle.

[sumantso]

NXT and Monero, these two are completely different coins and they cannot be compared IMO.

Which one has a better chance of becoming a successful alternative to btc/ltc?

I'm sure Darkcoin or(and) Zerocoin/Zerocash will overcome Bitcoin someday.

Why can two different coin technologies not be compared? What are the advantages and disadvantages of each tech?

Monero is maintained for anonymous transactions but it has some flaws in its code and other problems like being botnet raped.

NXT is the first pure PoS coin written from scratch. It brings asset exchange and some other features but suffers from unfair distribution.

Which one is better and how to compare them is up to you.

What sort of flaws have been discovered in the code for Monero?

I do know that NXT is mainly criticized for the initial distribution of it's coinbase. But if the technology is superior that doesn't mean that another coin based off NXT couldn't come along and solve that problem. If NXT's PoS system is superior to the CryptoNote PoW system that's vulnerable to botnets then that's a big plus for NXT.

NXT is a scam. No matter how you do it, distributing coins via PoS is unfair and will always be unfair. Those who get in on the "IPO" are the ones who always come out richer.

I think of NXT not as a currency....but as a platform to trade currencies, like Ripple.

...as opposed to distributing to big firms who waste electricity to earn the coins.

[jabo38]

People here have made a good point.  Spend a lot of money on a miner and electricity and get bitcoins, or spend a lot of money and get coins made in POS.  For a person not used to crypto, the whole mining thing is confusing at the least and totally unnecessary.  Why not just buy the coins directly instead of doings some crazy POW work around?

Month after month the top 10 fills up with more POS.  By next year, there might be only one POW coin left on the top 10.  A lonely giant at the top.

Again, I ask you to show me any POW that is even half as slick and half as many options as NXT.  (except the original)

mining is so 2012-2013

[sumantso]

People here have made a good point.  Spend a lot of money on a miner and electricity and get bitcoins, or spend a lot of money and get coins made in POS.  For a person not used to crypto, the whole mining thing is confusing at the least and totally unnecessary.  Why not just buy the coins directly instead of doings some crazy POW work around?

Month after month the top 10 fills up with more POS.  By next year, there might be only one POW coin left on the top 10.  A lonely giant at the top.

Again, I ask you to show me any POW that is even half as slick and half as many options as NXT.  (except the original)

mining is so 2012-2013

I don't think PoW will last long. It will be here for some time because of the vested interests and all the big investments already made, but eventually will be replaced by some good PoS (there are already a few candidates).

[Keyboard-Mash]

I don't think PoW will last long. It will be here for some time because of the vested interests and all the big investments already made, but eventually will be replaced by some good PoS (there are already a few candidates).

Why won't PoW last long? Where did you come up with that idea? It seems like you're thinking PoS will "win it out" ... but why do you think it's a battle for one "candidate"?