{ANNOUNCEMENT} WBX Exchange Frozen

[paulzag]

I take your point on trusting what i post here to be an exaggeration or untruthful, i just can't confirm anything until the investigation has completed  for me it's now a legal matter that is out of my hands now and i am restricted in what i say here.

Finally i got myself in this mess and thank you for offering to bailing me out,(I am no bank and thats exactly who got me into this mess) but id like to fix this myself it's how i work, mate i don't know where exactly you are digging this crap up!!!!!.... but please do some research before you decide to  defame my already depleted reputation.

I had to respond........it just pissed me off.

Andre

You got pissed off? Imagine how I feel and the rest of your clients.

You accuse me of defaming you. Please specify where I have done so in any of my postings. I will readily post a retraction, clarification or apology.

The last conversation I had with you was (I think) Thursday 16 February when you said my transfer had gone through (I can check and confirm the actual date but it was before 24 Feb). Since then it is impossible to talk to you via phone or email.

The only response from you has been identical cut and paste nonsense to (what seems like) every email in your inbox dated 12 March 2012.

What crap am I digging up? 1) Chris denied being your Technical Lead; 2)there is not WBX team; 3)you told me on the phone, you'd transferred my other withdrawal requests to my Westpac account when you had not.

If you are talking about a fraud investigation or small claims. I'm not digging those up. They are actively being considered.

What I'm trying to do is work out how to get some advocacy and communication going. We aren't talking sheep stations here*. But there are enough people saying you have their money and you are not giving it back to them. Worse you are not telling me enough information to encourage me to wait quietly (or come to your defense).

Andre as you know I am in Australia. I can coordinate the "disgruntled clients of Andre Jensen". I thought you would want to avoid creating an angry group of clients, and instead pursue an orderly resolution of affairs.

I don't think you are a crook or a scammer. I think you ended up in a bad place as the meat in the sandwich. Personally I suspect criminals used EFT to transfer more AUD into the exchange than you have admitted to me. But nothing you have said or done encourages me to hope for an orderly resolution.

*for non-Aussies "sheep stations" are huge land-holdings in the Australian outback - some are bigger than small counties. "Playing for sheep-stations" means playing for big stakes.

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[PatrickHarnett]

really long, but good post

Worth noting a couple of things.

As the company was struck off, Andre was operating as an individual and has the liability personally.  The protections of the Corporations Act and the provisions of insolvency don't work the same.

Issuing a statutory demand (or similar) is relatively cheap, but enforcement gets expensive.  In the other case I'm running in Aus, I've spent roughly $5k on background, and an uncontested (non-court) result should come in under another $5k.  If I have to do the full court stuff, that's $20k, and I still won;t get funds back - but it will at least shut down the guy I'm dealing with.

Not being GST registered is not a flag as getting that much from a start-up exchange on the fees they were charging is unlikely.  You would only go that step if it needs to.

[dooglus]

Received 7 hours ago via email from Andre:

Hi Chris,

This is starting to get very ugly on the forums i didn't want it to come to this as i wanted to take full responsibility for this situation, what you have posted on the forums has now involved investigators and my lawyers they will be in contact with you, very sorry (you can post this if you want)

I don't know if that means I won't be able to post about this in the future, but if I stop responding here, that may be why.

[repentance]

Received 7 hours ago via email from Andre:

Hi Chris,

This is starting to get very ugly on the forums i didn't want it to come to this as i wanted to take full responsibility for this situation, what you have posted on the forums has now involved investigators and my lawyers they will be in contact with you, very sorry (you can post this if you want)

I don't know if that means I won't be able to post about this in the future, but if I stop responding here, that may be why.

Don't talk to someone else's lawyers without obtaining legal advice of your own - they're acting in the other party's interest which may conflict with your own.  

"Taking full responsibility" would mean appointing a qualified third party to sort out this mess in a transparent manner in accordance with well established legal requirements.  That the company did nothing to stop its deregistration despite being well aware of the strike-off action by ASIC doesn't reflect well on their intention to follow established procedures for winding up a business and paying creditors.  That people have not been advised of the name of a liquidator/administrator to contact regarding the money they are owed is of concern - this should have happened even if the company is solvent and going into voluntary liquidation/administration.

Not being GST registered is not a flag as getting that much from a start-up exchange on the fees they were charging is unlikely.  You would only go that step if it needs to.

The point is that the exchange was a start up but they claimed that the holding company itself had been finding investments for "high net worth" individuals a number of years prior to that.  That they weren't registered for GST in that capacity implies that they had a turnover of less than $75,000 pa and so weren't very good at their business - or they failed to register despite having a turnover of over $75,000 which would mean that they weren't operating legitimately.  The holding company should also have held an AFSL if they were in the investment business and them not possessing one was a red flag regardless of the issue of whether exchanges should hold one - a legitimate investment company requires one.  Andre's LinkedIn profile describes the company as offering financial products and services - something which absolutely requires an AFSL (I screen-capped it just in case he decides to edit it).

Andre does have personal liability, but the question is to what extent.  It's possible for companies to be deregistered prior to liquidation (it's not usual) but there's still a formal winding up process which needs to be followed before ceasing business altogether or operating as a new entity and it appears that process wasn't undertaken.  Liability in respect of that process doesn't fall solely on Andre - if the company was not wound up properly, the other directors are also liable.  Andre is certainly responsible for his actions as a sole trader as well as for his actions as a director of the company, but for those who deposited funds prior to the company being deregistered, the issue of whether to seek recompense from the company during the wind up process or from Andre personally might not be so clear cut.

It's not yet clear whether the as yet unwound up company is insolvent and it's not yet clear whether Andre the sole trader is insolvent.  The fact that the assets and liabilities of the company appear to have been transferred to Andre the sole trader without the proper legal processes being followed makes this messy and it should really be sorted out by an administrator/liquidator.  Andre the sole trader cannot disgorge funds from assets he was never legally entitled to possess - the question of whether any of WBX's current assets belong at law to the as yet unwound up company needs to be determined before the true financial state of WBX in its current form can be worked out.  It's almost certain that this will not be resolved without the actions of the company, the other directors and Andre personally during the lookback period being taken into account.  We don't know the date when Andre began operating as a sole trader.  It may have been before the deregistration date.

I'm not suggesting that people don't pursue their money.  People should be pushing like hell for the appointment of an administrator/trustee even if it means taking involuntary insolvency action.  I'm just cautioning that getting money back could be a hell of a lot more complicated than getting a judgement and filing a bankruptcy notice against Andre personally (a creditor needs to be owed $5000 or more in order to do this).  Lookback may mean that some people will have a cause of action against other directors of the company, too.

[sonba]

Just on a seperate note: Andre's lawyers  were not able to talk to a lawyer of my own choice. I several times asked him to give me the contact details of his lawyers but he never sent those. I wouldn't bet that there actually are some lawyers.

[repentance]

Just on a seperate note: Andre's lawyers  were not able to talk to a lawyer of my own choice. I several times asked him to give me the contact details of his lawyers but he never sent those. I wouldn't bet that there actually are some lawyers.

I suspect that there are lawyers, but that doesn't mean they've been retained to help sort out the financial mess - they could well be advising him in respect of breaches of the Corporations Act, the fraud issues and other matters.

The most troubling aspect of this is the failure to appoint an administrator/liquidator/trustee - something which would halt civil legal action and put control of WBX's financial affairs in the hands of a third party.  I'd have done it in a fucking heartbeat in Andre's shoes, if only so that someone else was putting legal pressure on the bank to release the frozen funds.  If the frozen funds are the only thing putting financial stress on the business, then I'd want my creditors to know that and a formal statement of affairs and creditors' report from an administrator/trustee would prove it.

The most surprising thing of all in this is that Andre is still making personal statements about any of the issues involved.  This is one of those situations where lawyers usually tell you to shut the fuck up before you make things worse and make no statements not approved by them.

[Bigpiggy01]

The most surprising thing of all in this is that Andre is still making personal statements about any of the issues involved.  This is one of those situations where lawyers usually tell you to shut the fuck up before you make things worse and make no statements not approved by them.

He has with at least one of these posts been so good as to provide proof of his own fraudulent conduct.

[repentance]

The most surprising thing of all in this is that Andre is still making personal statements about any of the issues involved.  This is one of those situations where lawyers usually tell you to shut the fuck up before you make things worse and make no statements not approved by them.

He has with at least one of these posts been so good as to provide proof of his own fraudulent conduct.

I've screen-capped some stuff.  I suggest others do the same, and not just stuff on these forums.

For the record, here's a link to Andre's bullshit response to the question I asked in October about the strike-off action by ASIC.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=47071.msg561244#msg561244

ASIC does not initiate strike-off action when a company relocates its operations (the circumstances under which they initiate it are quite specific). Andre was lying through his teeth when he wrote that response but the fact that he wrote it proves beyond doubt that he was aware the strike-off action was in progress at least two months prior to the company being deregistered and that he was actively lying prior to the company being deregistered.  

It's possible to stop deregistration of a company that is in strike-off status and doing so should have been a simple matter for a solvent company.

The letter telling of our intention to deregister the company will also explain why the action is being taken and what steps you will need to take to stop deregistration. This will generally be any one or more of the following:
  -  pay the company’s annual review fee and any late fees in full
  -  lodge a document which indicates the company is carrying on business
  -  lodge any further documentation we require, and
  -  respond to the letter in writing and advise us that the company is carrying on business.

http://www.asic.gov.au/asic/ASIC.NSF/byHeadline/ASIC%20initiated%20deregistration%20of%20a%20company

[jaminunit]

I dont do much on these forums but have been into bitcoin for a long time.

I had just put $500 AUD onto the world bitcoin exchange and a few days later all trading stopped. I really want my cash back Andre. Please be an honorable business man.
You will only be successful in anything that you do in the future if you are honorable with your decisions now.

If you are thinking of running off with the relatively small amount of cash that was at your exchange then you will be sorry for the rest of your life because your name will be dirt online. And any future businessman doing his/her due diligence will come across threads like this and more and will most likely not do business with you.

But if you choose to be honorable and pay everyone back then any other business ventures you do in your life will start off with trust as you have shown that you can be trusted and success comes from trust in contacts.

Do the right thing mate.

[bitcowok]

But if you choose to be honorable and pay everyone back then any other business ventures you do in your life will start off with trust as you have shown that you can be trusted and success comes from trust in contacts.

Do the right thing mate.

So you're basically asking him to take a loan out to pay back whats owed?
I'm not sure there is a single bank on earth that will provide a loan to him at the moment, what with his assets frozen and a potential upcoming investigation.

I'm in precisely the same position as you jaminunit, but be realistic.

[jaminunit]

No I dont buy that his assets have been frozen. I see no proof of this/ I would like to see a scan of the paper work sent to him from the bank that froze his account and posted on the forum. I'm guessing it's the commonwealth bank because I think that's the bank I put money into to fund my account.

[Seal]

Finally i got myself in this mess and thank you for offering to bailing me out,(I am no bank and thats exactly who got me into this mess) but id like to fix this myself it's how i work, mate i don't know where exactly you are digging this crap up!!!!!.... but please do some research before you decide to  defame my already depleted reputation.

Andre,

I understand your predicament and am sorry you got scammed, however this doesn't detract from the fact that you have your clients money. You have the responsibility to pay it back regardless of the mess you're in.

The whole situation is bad, everybody will agree. But it will get worse and you have authority to change this by simply arranging to pay back the disgruntled clients that you can for now, and assuring others that they will get their money back in due course.

Many of us now have no further option the longer you make us wait then to raise lengthy and expensive legal action. The choice is yours. In the mean time I will be seeking legal advice.

[repentance]

The whole situation is bad, everybody will agree. But it will get worse and you have authority to change this by simply arranging to pay back the disgruntled clients that you can for now, and assuring others that they will get their money back in due course.

If he is insolvent he cannot do this without the agreement of all of his creditors - he'd be committing an offence under insolvency law if he did and the payments would be subject to clawback.

A clear statement from Andre about whether he intends to seek the protections of insolvency law would be useful but he's certainly not obliged to provide that information in advance.  While it's not especially costly to pursue money through Qld's Small Claims Tribunal (they deal with claims of up to $25,000), a judgement needs to be enforceable to have value - voluntary or involuntary insolvency proceedings would affect the value of any judgement obtained.  Bear in mind that a debtor can ask the court to order that the judgement be paid in instalments so obtaining a judgement does not guarantee getting the total amount you are owed quickly.

A few people have posted the amount of money they have tied up in WBX in this thread.  If more people did that, it would be possible to get a clearer idea of whether individual actions are worthwhile or whether Andre's creditors' interests would be better served by initiating insolvency action against him now rather than hoping the situation will improve.  Of course Andre may owe significant amounts of money to other creditors too - it's impossible to know that without some kind of action which forces disclosure of his true financial situation.

[dooglus]

I received an email from Bradley Elmi, a WBX customer who's unable to post here for himself on account of not having enough posts on this forum.  He asked that I post it here, so here it is:

Hi Chris, i dont know if you remember speaking with me, helping me out with my WBX account just before it was "frozen" I had problems locating the BTC that i had purchased and it turned out i had made two separate accounts; in which you were extremely helpful. I've written countless emails to Andre with no reply and with further investigation i found the forum thread that he made when it was frozen. Since i'm a new member to the forum site it won't allow me to make a post in the said forum so i thought i'd turn to you for some help as you seem like you just want to have the funds returned to their rightful owners.

Now, when i deposited the AUD ($770) into Andre's account, i traded it for BTC (128.2934BTC). I had uploaded my identification just days before the site was frozen and he hadn't yet approved them rendering me unable to withdraw funds. I don't understand fully what permission you have been granted regarding this matter but wondering if you could help me out?

I can provide you with countless documents to prove my identity or any other information regarding the legitimateness of my case. Below is some proof of trading activity.

[proof deleted]

I replied:

Hi Bradley.

This seems to be the relevant communication from Andre:
    https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=65867.msg812382#msg812382

"i would like for everyone to receive a full refund of there funds but unfortunately i cannot guarantee it at this stage, as soon as i get a clear conformation from my bank what is returned then the process of distributing assets will commence, I will keep you updated here."

So he's waiting until he works out what funds the exchange has, and how much it owes its clients, and I'm holding the BTC until he does.

I think you can ask to get whitelisted on the forums if you post in https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=15911 - give the URL of the thread you want to be able to post in, and say that you're a client of WBX who wants to say his piece.  If that doesn't work for you, I can post something in the thread for you if you like, and say it's what you emailed to me.  Let me know if you want me to do that.  I'm trying to keep communication out there in the open so everyone can see what's going on, as much as possible.  I think it would be good to get your numbers out there at least, so people can get an idea of how much is owed to WBX clients.

[PatrickHarnett]

Edited quote:

I take your point on trusting what i post here to be an exaggeration or untruthful, i just can't confirm anything until the investigation has completed  for me it's now a legal matter that is out of my hands now and i am restricted in what i say here.



Andre

 

As it is a legal mater now (as you say), can you provide the names of your lawyers so my lawyers can talk to them?

Patrick

[jaminunit]

I would also like to see some scans (with private info blured out if you want) of some of the the letters from banks and such.

[repentance]

I would also like to see some scans (with private info blured out if you want) of some of the the letters from banks and such.

Would you really trust an uploaded image, because I sure as hell wouldn't - it's way too easy to fake documents.

Does anyone actually have a physical address for Andre?  Is he even answering phone calls or emails from anyone any more?  Has anyone actually lodged a complaint with Qld Fair Trading?

[scales]

Hey everyone, just got whitelisted so I could post my situation.  (thanks forum mods)

On the 24th February I deposited $180 cash into the WBX commonwealth account.  At the time it did not occur to me to check WBX for any problems. I couldn't believe it when I read the site news the next day and never did I think it would drag on this long.

Andre, what is the point in having a business phone number if you're never going to answer the phone or return calls? Your customer service certainly has room for improvement.  It has been too long since you last frequented this thread and posted anything.

We need proof as your legitimacy is questionable for me right now.  I want your lawyers contact details asap to confirm this is not some cock and bull story. If i don't see these details by the weekend I will be contacting qld fair trading.

[Seal]

For those filing various cases. I think it'd help if we all posted the info we have for quick reference. From the website:

Contact info

Call: +617 3102-9666

Name: Andre Jensen
High Net Worth Property Pty Ltd
Trading As: World Bitcoin Exchange
ACN: 61 131 700 779
Gold Coast
Queensland
Australia
4208

Unsure:
Personal contact details
Email address
Personal Address
Lawyer contact details

Also, does anyone have the dates that the company was de-registered?

[dooglus]

The Australian Securities & Investments Commission's Index of corporate and business names (http://www.search.asic.gov.au/cgi-bin/gns030c?juris=9&hdtext=ACN&srchsrc=1&acn=131700779) says:

Registration Date   18/06/2008
Date Deregistered   04/12/2011

... and a bunch of other stuff.