www.lunamine.com - 0.0025 BTC/GHs mining contracts | On-demand withdrawals

[dyask]

their hardware is not going to crash, most likely because they have none, it's a ponzi.

And with the same amount of evidence you just showed, I can as well say you're a shill paid by some of their competitors to dump heaps of garbage on public forums about them, in order to ruin their reputation and their business.

What? Do you seriously believe that PBMining is NOT a ponzi scheme? You cannot be serious.

At one point a few months ago, the amount they were charging didn't even cover the power needed for two years after buying the cheapest possible hardware.   However is the S3's out those same calculations probably don't work.  Still they wouldn't have funds to upgrade the hardware.    

[odlal]

Spoon fed much!!!!

LMAO 

Click on LRIP-RIPE

Ahhhhh ! Thank you very much 

 

[dekodoge]

Spoon fed much!!!!

LMAO 

Click on LRIP-RIPE

Ahhhhh ! Thank you very much 

 

still no further on, it seems people who were scammed have just given up on getting their BTC back.

[btcmner]

still no further on, it seems people who were scammed have just given up on getting their BTC back.

No no, some are still tracking leads, it takes a lot of time, but things are making progress...

[odlal]

No no, some are still tracking leads, it takes a lot of time, but things are making progress...

Oh ? Care to elaborate ?

 

[odlal]

Question to Forum : Has anyone reading this thread ALREADY contacted either "Host Lincoln Ltd" or "WebHostingBuzz" (or both) please ?

There doesn't seem any point in me duplicating suchlike so before I think about contacting them perhaps you'd like to share here on this thread or contact me via PM ?

Thanks A Lot !
Odlal

 

[apsvinet]

No no, some are still tracking leads, it takes a lot of time, but things are making progress...

Oh ? Care to elaborate ?

 

Elaborate is exactly what this guy doesn't want to do, trust me. :p

[Netwerked]

What? Do you seriously believe that PBMining is NOT a ponzi scheme? You cannot be serious.

At one point a few months ago, the amount they were charging didn't even cover the power needed for two years after buying the cheapest possible hardware.   However is the S3's out those same calculations probably don't work.  Still they wouldn't have funds to upgrade the hardware.    

I think the business model of PBmining depends on Moore's Law holding true.  You're buying a mining contract, not a share of specific equipment.  As time goes on, 1 GH becomes cheaper to buy and requires less electricity to operate.

I think the business model is viable without having to resort to ponzi methods.  It's my understanding that the mining equipment is outsourced in a few locations around the globe.  The locations likely have very cheap electricity.  They even have a competitor that charges slightly less.

Could the business model fail?  Sure it can.  It makes certain assumptions about the future, and those assumptions could be wrong.  I would only invest a small amount of my portfolio in any one cloud mining company (and mining in general).

Create a spreadsheet, plug in the numbers, and decide if cloud mining is worth the risk.  I think the more important question is if you think cloud mining is profitable at all.  With the current cost of contracts and the difficulty rising an average of 16% each time, I'm waiting to see what happens.

[dyask]

What? Do you seriously believe that PBMining is NOT a ponzi scheme? You cannot be serious.

At one point a few months ago, the amount they were charging didn't even cover the power needed for two years after buying the cheapest possible hardware.   However is the S3's out those same calculations probably don't work.  Still they wouldn't have funds to upgrade the hardware.    

I think the business model of PBmining depends on Moore's Law holding true.  You're buying a mining contract, not a share of specific equipment.  As time goes on, 1 GH becomes cheaper to buy and requires less electricity to operate.

I think the business model is viable without having to resort to ponzi methods.  It's my understanding that the mining equipment is outsourced in a few locations around the globe.  The locations likely have very cheap electricity.  They even have a competitor that charges slightly less.

Could the business model fail?  Sure it can.  It makes certain assumptions about the future, and those assumptions could be wrong.  I would only invest a small amount of my portfolio in any one cloud mining company (and mining in general).

Create a spreadsheet, plug in the numbers, and decide if cloud mining is worth the risk.  I think the more important question is if you think cloud mining is profitable at all.  With the current cost of contracts and the difficulty rising an average of 16% each time, I'm waiting to see what happens.

Right now 10,000 GH/s should be paying around 0.187767 BTC / day.   I see at PBMining it is .577198, okay it is Tuesday night in the States, but .577188 / .187767 = 3.073.   So PBMining has paid out 3 days worth and no deductions for power!!!   Okay the claim is the power was paid for up front.   That may be possible but doesn't seem likely.   I know at Hashnest.com you can get 1 GH/s for .00135 BTC.   PBMining is charging .0029 BTC, a differenct of .00155 BTC ~ $.74 USD.   Let's assume they only pay $.03 / KWH which is super cheap by any countries standards.   That means they can buy 24.67 KWH.  Right now the 1 GH/s burns about 1W if you have really good hardware.   (It has to be cooled too, etc)  that means there is only enough power for 2.81 years.

This is actually much better than the last time I checked, but still far short of workable.   My assumptions don't leave any room for anything else like their cut.   

The problem is simple - The payouts are impossibly high with no variation like you get with real mining and there isn't enough left over to cover expenses.   Moore's law doesn't matter, but there isn't even enough money to buy power, let alone replace the hardware.   

[odlal]

The problem is simple - The payouts are impossibly high with no variation like you get with real mining and there isn't enough left over to cover expenses.   Moore's law doesn't matter, but there isn't even enough money to buy power, let alone replace the hardware.   

I have this one theory whereby the people behind PBMining were in it at the beginning of the Bitcoin phenomenon and have got a HUGE stash of coins ALREADY !

Now what they're doing is to "advance the cause of BTC" by making it more attractive to more and more people ...

Perhaps they're subversives who despise the current Global Banking Industry and see Bitcoin as a viable long-term alternative ?

 

[Netwerked]

Right now 10,000 GH/s should be paying around 0.187767 BTC / day.   I see at PBMining it is .577198, okay it is Tuesday night in the States, but .577188 / .187767 = 3.073.   So PBMining has paid out 3 days worth and no deductions for power!!!   Okay the claim is the power was paid for up front. 

When you buy the contract, it is stated that all fees are paid for up front.  This is not a guess or speculation, but a statement made by the company.

That may be possible but doesn't seem likely.   I know at Hashnest.com you can get 1 GH/s for .00135 BTC.   PBMining is charging .0029 BTC, a differenct of .00155 BTC ~ $.74 USD.   Let's assume they only pay $.03 / KWH which is super cheap by any countries standards.   That means they can buy 24.67 KWH.  Right now the 1 GH/s burns about 1W if you have really good hardware.   (It has to be cooled too, etc)  that means there is only enough power for 2.81 years.

I thought that really good hardware was closer to 0.5W/GH.  Even Butterfly Labs has equipment that reaches 0.7W/GH.

Let's try a mathematical example:
I buy a 1 TH contract for 2.9BTC.  At today's exchange rate of about 475 USD / BTC, that is 1,378USD.
Equipment is probably 0.60USD / GH, or $778.  That leaves 600 USD for power and profit.
At 0.5W/GH * 1,000, that's 500 watts.  In a day, that's 12kWh or 0.36USD.  In the first year, that's $132.  That leaves 468USD for years 2-5.

In year 2, they will have new equipment.  Let's assume it is 0.10 USD/GH and power is now 0.25W/GH.
Equipment cost 0.10USD/GH * 1000 = 100USD
At 0.25W/GH * 1000, that's 250 watts.  6kWh/day or 0.18USD.  In a year, that's $66.  Now there is 302USD left over.

In year 3, they will have new equipment.  Let's assume it is 0.05USD/GH and power is now 0.1W/GH
Equipment cost is 50USD, electricity is 100 watts or 2.4kWh/day or 0.07USD/day or 27USD a year. Now there is 225USD left over

Repeat for year 4 and 5, and you still have money left over.

I hear Iceland has cheap electricity, and cooling is nearly free.

This is actually much better than the last time I checked, but still far short of workable.   My assumptions don't leave any room for anything else like their cut.   

The problem is simple - The payouts are impossibly high with no variation like you get with real mining and there isn't enough left over to cover expenses.   Moore's law doesn't matter, but there isn't even enough money to buy power, let alone replace the hardware.   

It just depends on your assumptions and calculations.

[btcmner]

Even Butterfly Labs has equipment that reaches 0.7W/GH.

Ahem... Perhaps they do, but ask their customers who paid upfront a small fortune months and months ago and haven't received their hardware yet...

[dyask]

I thought that really good hardware was closer to 0.5W/GH.  Even Butterfly Labs has equipment that reaches 0.7W/GH.

I don't know of any system that gets close to .5W/GH.    Butterfly Labs isn't trustworthy and is many months behind on shipping.   The S3 from Bitman seems to be the current best on power consumption (~.7W/GH).    Even then that is just the primary power, you also have to pay for cooling.    It doesn't leave room for other maintenance costs and staff.    Also I used an impossibly low cost for electricity.    More likely it is closer to double what I used, even in Iceland.  (If that is really where they are.)

[Netwerked]

I thought that really good hardware was closer to 0.5W/GH.  Even Butterfly Labs has equipment that reaches 0.7W/GH.

I don't know of any system that gets close to .5W/GH.    Butterfly Labs isn't trustworthy and is many months behind on shipping.   The S3 from Bitman seems to be the current best on power consumption (~.7W/GH).    Even then that is just the primary power, you also have to pay for cooling.    It doesn't leave room for other maintenance costs and staff.    Also I used an impossibly low cost for electricity.    More likely it is closer to double what I used, even in Iceland.  (If that is really where they are.)

I'm not defending Butterfly Labs, but they did send an email one week ago stating that they are now shipping their outdated equipment that people paid for last year.  I'm not sure if that means everything is being shipped at once, or over a six month period.  I think if we're talking about how certain businesses can still be in business, we should be talking about BFL too.

According to https://tradeblock.com/mining/, Black Arrow and Spondoolies-Tech both have equipment that get 0.5W/GH.  I have not independently verified this, and their information has been known to contain errors.  Spondoolies-Tech's SP31 (October) is supposed to get 0.55W/GH.  Black Arrow released a press release stating that they will have 0.3W/GH equipment around the middle of next year.  There may also be other B2B mining equipment that is not widely known, or these cloud mining companies have an arrangement to buy equipment at wholesale for agreeing to purchase a minimum quantity over time.

The assumption is also that it is not necessary to pay for cooling, since the mining facility would be in Iceland, where fans can bring in cold air.  If not for that, then yes, cooling would consume significant power.

What if they have a lot of capital and mine for themselves, but sell contracts to improve their economies of scale?  The fact is that we don't know their business model.  I think if the business fails, it won't necessarily be because it is a ponzi, but because they made some risky business decisions.

[dyask]

I thought that really good hardware was closer to 0.5W/GH.  Even Butterfly Labs has equipment that reaches 0.7W/GH.

I don't know of any system that gets close to .5W/GH.    Butterfly Labs isn't trustworthy and is many months behind on shipping.   The S3 from Bitman seems to be the current best on power consumption (~.7W/GH).    Even then that is just the primary power, you also have to pay for cooling.    It doesn't leave room for other maintenance costs and staff.    Also I used an impossibly low cost for electricity.    More likely it is closer to double what I used, even in Iceland.  (If that is really where they are.)

I'm not defending Butterfly Labs, but they did send an email one week ago stating that they are now shipping their outdated equipment that people paid for last year.  I'm not sure if that means everything is being shipped at once, or over a six month period.  I think if we're talking about how certain businesses can still be in business, we should be talking about BFL too.

According to https://tradeblock.com/mining/, Black Arrow and Spondoolies-Tech both have equipment that get 0.5W/GH.  I have not independently verified this, and their information has been known to contain errors.  Spondoolies-Tech's SP31 (October) is supposed to get 0.55W/GH.  Black Arrow released a press release stating that they will have 0.3W/GH equipment around the middle of next year.  There may also be other B2B mining equipment that is not widely known, or these cloud mining companies have an arrangement to buy equipment at wholesale for agreeing to purchase a minimum quantity over time.

The assumption is also that it is not necessary to pay for cooling, since the mining facility would be in Iceland, where fans can bring in cold air.  If not for that, then yes, cooling would consume significant power.

What if they have a lot of capital and mine for themselves, but sell contracts to improve their economies of scale?  The fact is that we don't know their business model.  I think if the business fails, it won't necessarily be because it is a ponzi, but because they made some risky business decisions.

Well we are getting off topic ... The one thing I will say for PBMining is it is much better ran then lunamine was.   (However I still think they are both scams.)  
Anyway, the numbers still don't work in reality, because you can't buy power cheap enough, even at .5 W/GH for 5 years.   One year, probably, two years it is iffy.

[Netwerked]

The one thing I will say for PBMining is it is much better ran then lunamine was.

I guess that's self-evident.  One is still in business, while the other suddenly disappeared.

(However I still think they are both scams.)  

Just because we don't understand a business model doesn't automatically make it a scam.  If I understand you correctly, you think that PBmining.com does not have a sustainable business model.  Since it is not sustainable, it will eventually fail.  The solution is to not invest if you think that will be the outcome.

Anyway, the numbers still don't work in reality, because you can't buy power cheap enough, even at .5 W/GH for 5 years.   One year, probably, two years it is iffy.

In reality, the cost of maintaining 1GH today is much more expensive than it will be one year from now and beyond.  For example, one year ago, I bought a miner that cost approximately $85/GH and used 6W/GH.  The $/GH and W/GH have dropped dramatically over the past year.  I believe the business model assumes that we will have future efficiency improvements.  It is these improvements that are the key to success.  If these assumptions are wrong, then the business will fail.  Because the development of mining equipment is highly competitive, I feel safe in predicting that in one year $/GH will be 0.30USD/GH or less and that power requirements will be 0.25W/GH or less.

[xstr8guy]

Lol, I know this is a contrary post and off-topic. But I want to set a few misconceptions straight.

I bought contracts with PBMining in March and have just now reached a positive ROI. Although I don't think it would be possible now for new contracts with PBMINING to see positive ROI. Do I think it's a Ponzi? Heck, I don't know but I'm obviously not the best judge of trustworthiness since I lost 4.4BTC on Lunamine, lol.

BFL have actually delivered my Monarch about a week ago. I was a first day preorder (Aug 17th 2013). I was supposed to be shipped a second "free" Monarch at the same time but am still waiting for that. I also had 600GHs of compensation cloudmining since June 24th that was shutdown today. Yes, the current price is WAY too high at $1.97 per GHs but the Monarch is not outdated tech. It uses .7w/GHs which is still competitive with current generation miners from KNC, Bitmain and Spoondoolies.

[dyask]

(However I still think they are both scams.)  

Just because we don't understand a business model doesn't automatically make it a scam.  If I understand you correctly, you think that PBmining.com does not have a sustainable business model.  Since it is not sustainable, it will eventually fail.  The solution is to not invest if you think that will be the outcome.

No you misunderstand me.   I think it is a scam because the math shows they aren't backing up the GH/s with real hardware.   If they came out and said we aren't actually backing up the GH/s with hardware, I wouldn't have a problem with it.  There are many variations of that ... for example they could say when we run of funds for power we will stop mining.   The problem is they are selling 5 year contracts that can't possible work at the prices they are charging.   However it is better now than a couple months ago as there is now a lot cheaper hardware like the S3, but the number still don't add up.   It has nothing to do with business model, it is just lining up the numbers against their claims. 

I thought lunamine was a scam because I tried a trail and there were just too many questions and lack of interest in answering them in any way.   It could have worked and should have, but it was just too strange.   

By the same token I don't have a problem with what GAWMiners is doing because they aren't claiming that the Hashlets are actually mining.    Also they are interacting a lot with the community while they are building up their system.    I don't know if the business model will work or not, but I don't think it is a scam at least yet.   

I don't thing Genesis Mining is a scam as the price more than covers a possible one year contract.   I don't think it is worth the money unless one is very good at picking coins, but that is far from a scam.

[dyask]

Lol, I know this is a contrary post and off-topic. But I want to set a few misconceptions straight.

I bought contracts with PBMining in March and have just now reached a positive ROI. Although I don't think it would be possible now for new contracts with PBMINING to see positive ROI. Do I think it's a Ponzi? Heck, I don't know but I'm obviously not the best judge of trustworthiness since I lost 4.4BTC on Lunamine, lol.

BFL have actually delivered my Monarch about a week ago. I was a first day preorder (Aug 17th 2013). I was supposed to be shipped a second "free" Monarch at the same time but am still waiting for that. I also had 600GHs of compensation cloudmining since June 24th that was shutdown today. Yes, the current price is WAY too high at $1.97 per GHs but the Monarch is not outdated tech. It uses .7w/GHs which is still competitive with current generation miners from KNC, Bitmain and Spoondoolies.

Personally I'm happy to see you get your money out of PBMining and I hope you get a good amount of profit now.    I also agree that .7w/GH is very good by today's standards.   However, I think it will be hard to breakeven on that one.   At least you had mining since June 24th which should have helped a lot. 

[xstr8guy]

Lol, I know this is a contrary post and off-topic. But I want to set a few misconceptions straight.

I bought contracts with PBMining in March and have just now reached a positive ROI. Although I don't think it would be possible now for new contracts with PBMINING to see positive ROI. Do I think it's a Ponzi? Heck, I don't know but I'm obviously not the best judge of trustworthiness since I lost 4.4BTC on Lunamine, lol.

BFL have actually delivered my Monarch about a week ago. I was a first day preorder (Aug 17th 2013). I was supposed to be shipped a second "free" Monarch at the same time but am still waiting for that. I also had 600GHs of compensation cloudmining since June 24th that was shutdown today. Yes, the current price is WAY too high at $1.97 per GHs but the Monarch is not outdated tech. It uses .7w/GHs which is still competitive with current generation miners from KNC, Bitmain and Spoondoolies.

Personally I'm happy to see you get your money out of PBMining and I hope you get a good amount of profit now.    I also agree that .7w/GH is very good by today's standards.   However, I think it will be hard to breakeven on that one.   At least you had mining since June 24th which should have helped a lot. 

Yeah, there's zero chance that Monarchs will ever break even. It's not logical that I didn't take a refund. But there's still something to be said for hardware lust, lol.