Does God judge the nations?

[elliwilli]

Have you ever thought that the bible could just be a big collection of fables?
Y'know, stories with a moral message behind them? i mean it makes sence doesnt it, they follow so many tropes of fairy tales "There is a big bad who is watching you so be good".
actually its kinda like Father Christmas/Santa/Your regional variant in a way "Be good or you wont get presents" > "Be good or you go to hell"

[noviapriani]

How is it murder you ask?

Deuteronomy 13:
 The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. That prophet or dreamer tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.


Let me ask you , if you stoned someone to death for worshing someone other than your god tomorrow.....would anyone consider that murder you think???

Still does not answer how it is murder, destroying the nations, nor then giving a different example of when to apply the death penalty within the nation of Israel.


So, what makes either example murder?  You still have not answered that.

[Slark]

Everytime I see 'religious' topic here on forum, or wherever in general there is fighting. Always. How can you people can't understand that you know NOTHING of GOD or greater power. Imagine ants talking about their gods it is funny for you? That is what we all are. We can only repeat some words people before us write or say without real proofs. Just lieve good life and it would be enough for you or your God.

[Rigon]

How is it murder you ask?

Deuteronomy 13:
 The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. That prophet or dreamer tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.


Let me ask you , if you stoned someone to death for worshing someone other than your god tomorrow.....would anyone consider that murder you think???

Still does not answer how it is murder, destroying the nations, nor then giving a different example of when to apply the death penalty within the nation of Israel.


So, what makes either example murder?  You still have not answered that.

Its the "putting people to death" part that makes it murder. Killing someone because they worship another god is murder no matter how much an idiot like yourself tries to rationalize it.  Call it murder, a "death penalty", punishment...whatever  you want to call it.  Your god commands you to put people to death who simply worship another god.   great guy isn’t he???

[noviapriani]

God (man who pretended to be god) was writing that all who believe in other gods should be put to death...and he was speaking to (writing for) anyone who believed the bible......which we now call christians.

If you believe God actually wrote or inspired this , then you believe your god wants us to kill anyone who doesnt believe in him.   Great and loving/forgiving god that he is.

I agree that God gave instructions to destroy some nations.  Who did he give them to?  Simple question.

 By the way, while it is evil to worship anyone other than our Creator, that is not why he gave the instructions to destroy those select nations - else other nations would have been on the list.

But if you are given orders to destroy and kill surely that's in Vengeance? Making all gods Vengeful gods, let alone contradicting a load of the 613 commandments...
And now the counterpoint to theism, "If the big bang came from nowhere, where did god come from to create the universe if no universe existed before him?"

But, lets see how far we go - taking the position (for arguement sake) that it is indeed the Creator giving the instructions to eliminate these nations (nations, mind you, involved in great evil according to the text), how is it murder?

Deuteronomy was attributed to Moses according to the bible.  Jesus himself says Moses wrote it and that people should believe the words.

 "For if ye believed Moses, ye would believe me; for he wrote of me (See Deut. 18:15-18). But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words? (John 5:46-47).

So jesus is saying that Moses is right in Deuteronomy...and jesus is lord....no???

Yes, Jesus is right about Moses.  And yes, Moses words are from God.   And therefore.....?

......therefore god instructs us to put to death anyone who worships another.   Are you fucking dense or something? Have you been paying any attention at all?  (Rhetorical questions)

It may or may not.  See, that is where context helps.  Jesus is right about Moses - but on this, can you demonstrate who the instructions God to Moses were applicable to?  Have you even bothered to look?

A simple illustration - a parent gives instruction to one son, does it automatically follow that this instruction applies to all his/her kids 

[Hustle2survive]

god wants to kill the other gods like the christian god wants to kill muslim god. god wars.

[noviapriani]

How is it murder you ask?

Deuteronomy 13:
 The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. That prophet or dreamer tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.


Let me ask you , if you stoned someone to death for worshing someone other than your god tomorrow.....would anyone consider that murder you think???

Still does not answer how it is murder, destroying the nations, nor then giving a different example of when to apply the death penalty within the nation of Israel.


So, what makes either example murder?  You still have not answered that.

Its the "putting people to death" part that makes it murder. Killing someone because they worship another god is murder no matter how much an idiot like yourself tries to rationalize it.  Call it murder, a "death penalty", punishment...whatever  you want to call it.  Your god commands you to put people to death who simply worship another god.   great guy isn’t he???

Still not anwering the question - unless you are saying that there is no criteria where one human can put another to death and it is not murder?

If there is criteria for when a person can take the life of another and it not be murder - then what is that criteria based on?

[Rigon]

How is it murder you ask?

Deuteronomy 13:
 The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. That prophet or dreamer tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.


Let me ask you , if you stoned someone to death for worshing someone other than your god tomorrow.....would anyone consider that murder you think???

Still does not answer how it is murder, destroying the nations, nor then giving a different example of when to apply the death penalty within the nation of Israel.


So, what makes either example murder?  You still have not answered that.

Its the "putting people to death" part that makes it murder. Killing someone because they worship another god is murder no matter how much an idiot like yourself tries to rationalize it.  Call it murder, a "death penalty", punishment...whatever  you want to call it.  Your god commands you to put people to death who simply worship another god.   great guy isn’t he???

Still not anwering the question - unless you are saying that there is no criteria where one human can put another to death and it is not murder?

If there is criteria for when a person can take the life of another and it not be murder - then what is that criteria based on?

Putting anyone to death for worshiping in a different way is always murder .  But recall i said i could give a shit what you call it.  God was telling Moses that people who worship other gods should be killed.  There is no way to interpret that in a good light .  Great god huh?

[HarmonLi]

Everytime I see 'religious' topic here on forum, or wherever in general there is fighting. Always. How can you people can't understand that you know NOTHING of GOD or greater power. Imagine ants talking about their gods it is funny for you? That is what we all are. We can only repeat some words people before us write or say without real proofs. Just lieve good life and it would be enough for you or your God.

I think this is part of how religions work. Religions are concepts that people adopt. They are convinced that the teachings of their respective religion are real. Yet, they can't prove them. They'll never be able to! And yet they feel the urge to convince other people that their religion is the 'right' one. It's a vicious circle that can't be broken, I guess...

[sana8410]

It was what it was, if there's a God that all things and people were created from and at that time others idols were worshiped, that would mean eventually they would have destroyed Israel and worshiped something other than the true God
Too noviapriani's point i don't see a lot of evidence God favors nations anymore except in a spiritual sense or a nation of believers. Nations may be used to full-fill certain prophecy but that's all

[noviapriani]

How is it murder you ask?

Deuteronomy 13:
 The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. That prophet or dreamer tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.


Let me ask you , if you stoned someone to death for worshing someone other than your god tomorrow.....would anyone consider that murder you think???

Still does not answer how it is murder, destroying the nations, nor then giving a different example of when to apply the death penalty within the nation of Israel.


So, what makes either example murder?  You still have not answered that.

Its the "putting people to death" part that makes it murder. Killing someone because they worship another god is murder no matter how much an idiot like yourself tries to rationalize it.  Call it murder, a "death penalty", punishment...whatever  you want to call it.  Your god commands you to put people to death who simply worship another god.   great guy isn’t he???

Still not anwering the question - unless you are saying that there is no criteria where one human can put another to death and it is not murder?

If there is criteria for when a person can take the life of another and it not be murder - then what is that criteria based on?

Putting anyone to death for worshiping in a different way is always murder .  But recall i said i could give a shit what you call it.  God was telling Moses that people who worship other gods should be killed.  There is no way to interpret that in a good light .  Great god huh?

As Sana points out - to worship something other than one's own Creator is wrong.

In fact, dangerous and leads to evil.

[elliwilli]

I think it would be a lot easier if all gods were like the ones in Black And White.

[TheFootMan]

For a God to judge, there need to exist a God. Usually - when making a claim, you have to prove that is is true. Many religions state that their religion is the only 'right' one.

It's funny then that we have a lot of religions all claiming this. So what are the possible scenarios:

1. They're all right.
2. They're all wrong.
3. At least one of them are right.

As for alternative 1. it's possible that there exist several Gods, each of which have their own following, or that there exists only one God, only called with different names for every group of followers. Alternative 2 is the most likely imo, while alternative 3 seems very unlikely still imo.

So if we work under the assumption that there's no God, there's no God to judge any nation. On the off chance that there actually exists a God, I doubt it would be a silly as to judge an entire nation.

What is a nation? Let's for the sake of simplicity define it as all the people living within some artificial borders drawn up on a map. Some of those people will be really bad, some of them will be really good, and there will be a lot of them not being particular good, or particular bad, just normal average people who care mostly about themselves and their families.

Judging a large group of people because of the action of a minority of them, would be stupid. If God exists, he's not stupid, and he would promote love, not hate. We must realize that religious books are written by people, to sway and control people. There's always a motive for writing a religious book. If there's a book, and it promotes any kind of hatred or violence, that hatred or violence are promoted by the humans writing that very book.

There's no such people as 'Gods people'. That's utter nonsense. There might be groups that have decided that they really are 'Gods people' to make them appear better than everyone else. In reality they're not.

Point blank, people need to stop being idiots, and look at life for what it is, and not point to any fairytale figure in the sky that's the answer to everything, and certainly not be as stupid as to believe that a religious book is somehow special, and that everything in that book is true.

World governments have been caught in blatant lies, so have religious leaders - all have an agenda - and you think such an agenda is not funneled into a religious book?

To make any kind of rational and logical arguments, you need to lose the religious fanaticism and educate yourself.

In my opinion, there's no omnipotent God, and your life will mainly be governed by your own will, and randomly there can happen unexpected positive or bad things.

No man or woman that's sane will chose to risk to die for their 'motherland' on a daily basis. The point is that the 'motherland' does not care. A solider is a tool, once he's dead, he'll be replaced. His family will grief, the 'motherland' will not. True, there might be some superficial ceremonies and medals being dished out, but once all of that's gone - the family sits there with their loss, while the 'motherland' cares no more.

All this idiocy about God judging this or that, please stop it.

[Rigon]

How is it murder you ask?

Deuteronomy 13:
 The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. That prophet or dreamer tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.


Let me ask you , if you stoned someone to death for worshing someone other than your god tomorrow.....would anyone consider that murder you think???

Still does not answer how it is murder, destroying the nations, nor then giving a different example of when to apply the death penalty within the nation of Israel.


So, what makes either example murder?  You still have not answered that.

Its the "putting people to death" part that makes it murder. Killing someone because they worship another god is murder no matter how much an idiot like yourself tries to rationalize it.  Call it murder, a "death penalty", punishment...whatever  you want to call it.  Your god commands you to put people to death who simply worship another god.   great guy isn’t he???

Still not anwering the question - unless you are saying that there is no criteria where one human can put another to death and it is not murder?

If there is criteria for when a person can take the life of another and it not be murder - then what is that criteria based on?

Putting anyone to death for worshiping in a different way is always murder .  But recall i said i could give a shit what you call it.  God was telling Moses that people who worship other gods should be killed.  There is no way to interpret that in a good light .  Great god huh?

As Sana points out - to worship something other than one's own Creator is wrong.

In fact, dangerous and leads to evil.

Well there you have it.  If you are a brainwashed  and believe that shit then I guess you can convince yourself its OK to murder someone who happens to think differently than you. This would make you essentially no different than a brainwashed islamic terrorist.

[Rigon]

Believing in the Buddha has really led those monks down the path of evil hasnt it?   Seriously  that may have been the dumbest thing you have ever said.  And in the long litany of  that has come off your keyboard there is some stiff competition for the  award.   I suppose you will be the first person to volunteer to put those evil bastards to death.

[Gleb Gamow]

"Not this again!"

[noviapriani]

Believing in the Buddha has really led those monks down the path of evil hasnt it?   Seriously  that may have been the dumbest thing you have ever said.  And in the long litany of  that has come off your keyboard there is some stiff competition for the  award.   I suppose you will be the first person to volunteer to put those evil bastards to death.

I suppose if one lived in your world, where reading comprehesion and integrity is optional.

By the way, still waiting for you answer here:

Are you saying that there is no criteria where one human can put another to death and it is not murder?

If there is criteria for when a person can take the life of another and it not be murder - then what is that criteria based on?

[TheFootMan]

As Sana points out - to worship something other than one's own Creator is wrong.

In fact, dangerous and leads to evil.

Not sure if trolling...

But I'll bite..

Did you ask yourself this question:

How do I know who is my Creator? Who told me this? Do the ones who told me have an agenda? Is there any proof that my Creator even exists, or is it just something I'm told by people so often until I accepted it as a truth? No matter where you live, do you realize that your entire life is formed by your culture, the values and customs that exist where you live? Do you realize that if you were born somewhere else, you would have a different set of values, and living in an other culture, and having an entirely different view on life? So in reality, which religion you've been sucked into depends on were you're born basically.

It's a bit like chosing a TV-show, or supporting a soccer team, since you support a particular team, then it's 'the only right one'. And all other is shit. It's not a very mature attitude.

You state that to worship anything else than your own Creator is wrong and is dangerous and lead to evil, seems to indicate you're still stuck in the same mindset as those of the middle ages. The truth is that any opinion that you have about worshipping anything else than your Creator is dangerous and leading to evil, is an opinion made by humans. Most often such statements are outdated, and they're made to gather a certain amount of people in a certain religion. Fear is a powerful tool, and if you can control people's mind, you control people. In reality, the only thing to fear is fear itself.

Stating it would be dangerous and lead to evil to worship anything but your Creator is hillarious. I don't pray to a God. Every day I go outside my door, I can decide whether I want to be god or bad. There's no God influencing this choice. There's no God or Creator having copyrighted good actions.

Being a muslim, hindu, catholic, buddhist or whatever - it's the persons choice to be good or bad. All religions have their rotten eggs. Heck, there might be no difference between an atheist and a buddhist, an atheist can be an oustanding individual, doing a lot of good for himself and society, just like a buddhist could be a really bad person.

So no matter, if you chose to be a devoted muslim, a devoted christian or whatever, if you go alongside a road, and you see a basket with some kittens in it, that's left to die, its your choice whether you want to reach out and help them, or to just walk way not caring. It has nothing to do with your religion, it has all to do with you.

I never pray to God, but when I see a smal frog on the road, I take it up and put it in the ditch. Which probably makes me a good person in your eyes, as I'm saving it. On the other side, I often kill snails, which are invading the area where I live, this might make me evil in your eyes.

Point is that, evil or bad - we all have both of it in us, and we choose ourselves what we think shall prevail. A fundamentally good person, is fundamentally a good person, no matter which religion he belongs to or if he has no religion at all.

[noviapriani]

I am not trolling....and i asked myself those questions many times....but i choose to believe my religion....and as long as i don't harm others with my believe i don't see what is wrong with it.I don't judge you for saving the life of some animals and kill the others, i do the same,and probably makes me good and bad in the same time.I started this topic to see peoples opinion and to find answers to my questions.

[Rigon]

Believing in the Buddha has really led those monks down the path of evil hasnt it?   Seriously  that may have been the dumbest thing you have ever said.  And in the long litany of  that has come off your keyboard there is some stiff competition for the  award.   I suppose you will be the first person to volunteer to put those evil bastards to death.

I suppose if one lived in your world, where reading comprehesion and integrity is optional.

By the way, still waiting for you answer here:

Are you saying that there is no criteria where one human can put another to death and it is not murder?

If there is criteria for when a person can take the life of another and it not be murder - then what is that criteria based on?

I dont really care about your irrelevent question about other instances where killing may or may not be murder.  We are talking about one specific situation....

The one specific situation we are discussigin is where a person has a different faith and is put to death, killed, murdered, terminated, etc. for simply having that different faith.   You can call it what you like but that is murder.