Seketsuna
|
|
November 21, 2014, 12:44:35 PM |
|
so what is the deal with this site / service https://scrypt.cc . Is it for real or is it scam i see people say good thing i see the bad as with any product i suppose but dont really see much chat activity about it. I dont think 31 pages of chat in original forum for something started 10 months ago is a good thing lol. I am excited to consider like a Cex.io but for scrypt that would be awsome to be confirmed legit. its a scam trust me. just looked at it no activity and if you search google there are some scam accusations about it. https://bitcointa.lk/threads/scrypt-cc-scrypt-cloud-mining.251460/page-8
|
|
|
|
picolo
|
|
November 21, 2014, 01:57:43 PM |
|
This seems like a good thread to post my genesis vs gaw comparisons. I signed up with both of them 4-5 days ago around the same time. I bought a 2 MH with Genesis and a 1 MH with GAW to compare them before I spent some real money. Genesis is giving me around 8 cents a day and ive got a total of 40 cents from them in this time. I expected this.
GAW has been far worse. FAR WORSE. in the 4-5 days I have been with them I have 2 cents total. Not only that but the fees from GAW are eating away ALL of my profits. check these GAW payouts
BTC Payout 0.00020793 BTC Maintenance Fee -0.00020792 BTC
That is a huge problem. fees are taking the profits. I did not signup for that and I dont expect GAW to get any better. While genesis payments have decreased a tad they are still way better. I have not tried any other cloud mining companies yet. I was going to try a few more but after my experience with GAW i just dont know.
It is smart to start very small to see how much you can get. Cheap Ghs, safe company and low maintenance fees is the winning combination but if the company is well established you will get higher prices That is why you gotta try www.cloudmining.website (0.001 BTC/Ghs), www.cloudminer.io (0.0014 BTC/Ghs), www.hashie.io (4.59 USD/Ghs) etc. where u can actually have some profit. Lower price with higher risks sometimes means a better chance to ROI. Cloudminer is very new but going strong; hashie is interesting if the price of BTC rises
|
|
|
|
Mabsark
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 826
Merit: 1004
|
|
November 21, 2014, 08:41:46 PM |
|
Nobody has mentioned AMHash yet.
It's ASICMiners cloud mining service so you can be sure it's not a ponzi. 1 Gh/s costs < 1.2mBTC Maintenance fee of $0.00163 per Gh/s per day. Contracts can be traded on Havelock.
|
|
|
|
SpanishSoldier
|
|
November 21, 2014, 09:03:07 PM |
|
This seems like a good thread to post my genesis vs gaw comparisons. I signed up with both of them 4-5 days ago around the same time. I bought a 2 MH with Genesis and a 1 MH with GAW to compare them before I spent some real money. Genesis is giving me around 8 cents a day and ive got a total of 40 cents from them in this time. I expected this.
GAW has been far worse. FAR WORSE. in the 4-5 days I have been with them I have 2 cents total. Not only that but the fees from GAW are eating away ALL of my profits. check these GAW payouts
BTC Payout 0.00020793 BTC Maintenance Fee -0.00020792 BTC
That is a huge problem. fees are taking the profits. I did not signup for that and I dont expect GAW to get any better. While genesis payments have decreased a tad they are still way better. I have not tried any other cloud mining companies yet. I was going to try a few more but after my experience with GAW i just dont know.
It is smart to start very small to see how much you can get. Cheap Ghs, safe company and low maintenance fees is the winning combination but if the company is well established you will get higher prices That is why you gotta try www.cloudmining.website (0.001 BTC/Ghs), www.cloudminer.io (0.0014 BTC/Ghs), www.hashie.io (4.59 USD/Ghs) etc. where u can actually have some profit. Lower price with higher risks sometimes means a better chance to ROI. Cloudminer is very new but going strong; hashie is interesting if the price of BTC rises I'm not sure whether OP checks this thread anymore. I think, these new 3 are to be included in OP's list...
|
|
|
|
l3sny
|
|
November 21, 2014, 10:36:23 PM |
|
I think we may see soon the a series of collapses of all that fake 'cloud hashing' services as tthe difficulty is going down. Only the ones with true working miners will survive.
|
▄▄▓▓█▓▓█▀▀▀▀█▓▓██▓▄▄ ▄▓█▓▀ ▀▓█▓█ ▄▓█▓ ▄▄▄▓▓▓▓▓▓▄▄▄ ▀█▓▄ ▄▓██ ▄▓▓██████████████▓▓▄ ██▓▄ ▓██ ▓▓████████▓▀▀██████████▓ ██▓ ▓█░ █▓█████▓▀ ▓██ ▓██ ▀▓▓█████▓ ▓▓ ▓█ ▓█████▀ ▄▓▓██████▓▓▓▄ ▓████▓ ██ ▓██ █████▓ ▄▓▓ ▄██░▐███▄ ▀▓▓ ░▓███▓ ██▓ ██ █████ █▓ ▓████░▐████▓█ █▓ ░█████ ██ ██ ▐████ ▐█ ▓█████░▐██████░ █▌ █████ ██░ ██ ▐████ ▐██ ▓█████░▐█████▓ █▓ ░█████ ██░ ██ ████▓ █▓█ ▀▓▓██░▐██▓▓ █▓ ▓████ ██ ▐█▓ ░████▓▄ ▀▓▓▄▄██░▐███▄▓▓ █▓████░ ██▌ ▐██ ▓████▓▄▄ ▀██░▐███ ▄▓▓████▓░ ██▓ ▐█▓ █▓██████▓▓██████▓▓████████ ▐█▓ ▐█▓▄ ▀▓██████████████████▓▀ ▄▓██ ▐█▓▄ ▀▀▓▓████████▓▓▀▀ ▄▓██ ▓██▄ ▄█▓▓▀ ▀▓█▓▓▄▄ ▄▄▓▓█▓▀ ▀▀▓▓██████▓▓▀▀ | | ██ ██ ██ ██ ██ ██ ██ | | ██ ██ ██ ██ ██ ██ ██ | .Social Media.
| . ,▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ ▄████▀▀▀▀████▄ ▄███` ,▄▄, ▀██▄ ▐██▀ ▄███████ ██▌ ,▄███ ████████▌ ▐██▄, ,▄███████▄ █▄▄██▄▄█ ▄███████▄▄ ██████████████████████████████████, ▐████▌ ██████████████████ ▐█████ ▀████▄▄████████▀ "████████▄▄████▀ `▀████████████▄▄████████████▀▀ '▀▀▀▀▀█████████▀▀▀▀ ▄▄ ▄▄ ███ ▄▄⌐ ███ ███ ██▌ ▀██ ███ ██▌ ▀██ ██▌ |
|
|
|
picolo
|
|
November 21, 2014, 11:02:24 PM |
|
I think we may see soon the a series of collapses of all that fake 'cloud hashing' services as tthe difficulty is going down. Only the ones with true working miners will survive.
If the difficulty goes down and you have the hardware it is a good thing, do you mean that some cloud hashing companies are ponzis?
|
|
|
|
l3sny
|
|
November 22, 2014, 07:35:41 AM Last edit: November 22, 2014, 07:56:23 AM by l3sny |
|
Yes, that's what I think. So either they will default or try to fix the gap by buying more equipment which probably will not work so they will get into more torubles even. You see when you are buying a contract you cannot resell it to anyone. Most of the companies will say about themselves that 'they have a lots of experience in mining as they were doing this for many years and they do not have a specific pool but have some software that makes it most profitable etc.' and in consequence they cannot sho the hashrate if you asked them. At some stage they will infor you of a malfunction/fire in their facility etc. will settle the contract with some money and will disappear in thin air. So that's what me thinks...
|
▄▄▓▓█▓▓█▀▀▀▀█▓▓██▓▄▄ ▄▓█▓▀ ▀▓█▓█ ▄▓█▓ ▄▄▄▓▓▓▓▓▓▄▄▄ ▀█▓▄ ▄▓██ ▄▓▓██████████████▓▓▄ ██▓▄ ▓██ ▓▓████████▓▀▀██████████▓ ██▓ ▓█░ █▓█████▓▀ ▓██ ▓██ ▀▓▓█████▓ ▓▓ ▓█ ▓█████▀ ▄▓▓██████▓▓▓▄ ▓████▓ ██ ▓██ █████▓ ▄▓▓ ▄██░▐███▄ ▀▓▓ ░▓███▓ ██▓ ██ █████ █▓ ▓████░▐████▓█ █▓ ░█████ ██ ██ ▐████ ▐█ ▓█████░▐██████░ █▌ █████ ██░ ██ ▐████ ▐██ ▓█████░▐█████▓ █▓ ░█████ ██░ ██ ████▓ █▓█ ▀▓▓██░▐██▓▓ █▓ ▓████ ██ ▐█▓ ░████▓▄ ▀▓▓▄▄██░▐███▄▓▓ █▓████░ ██▌ ▐██ ▓████▓▄▄ ▀██░▐███ ▄▓▓████▓░ ██▓ ▐█▓ █▓██████▓▓██████▓▓████████ ▐█▓ ▐█▓▄ ▀▓██████████████████▓▀ ▄▓██ ▐█▓▄ ▀▀▓▓████████▓▓▀▀ ▄▓██ ▓██▄ ▄█▓▓▀ ▀▓█▓▓▄▄ ▄▄▓▓█▓▀ ▀▀▓▓██████▓▓▀▀ | | ██ ██ ██ ██ ██ ██ ██ | | ██ ██ ██ ██ ██ ██ ██ | .Social Media.
| . ,▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ ▄████▀▀▀▀████▄ ▄███` ,▄▄, ▀██▄ ▐██▀ ▄███████ ██▌ ,▄███ ████████▌ ▐██▄, ,▄███████▄ █▄▄██▄▄█ ▄███████▄▄ ██████████████████████████████████, ▐████▌ ██████████████████ ▐█████ ▀████▄▄████████▀ "████████▄▄████▀ `▀████████████▄▄████████████▀▀ '▀▀▀▀▀█████████▀▀▀▀ ▄▄ ▄▄ ███ ▄▄⌐ ███ ███ ██▌ ▀██ ███ ██▌ ▀██ ██▌ |
|
|
|
TheBeardedOne
Newbie
Offline
Activity: 8
Merit: 0
|
|
November 22, 2014, 11:07:17 AM |
|
I think we may see soon the a series of collapses of all that fake 'cloud hashing' services as tthe difficulty is going down. Only the ones with true working miners will survive.
If the difficulty goes down and you have the hardware it is a good thing, do you mean that some cloud hashing companies are ponzis? Just a thought on this, but if the difficulty goes down, the ponzi would be unaffected as they are not dependent on the difficulty. They just payout with the money they took in, but are going to continue receiving contracts either way..
|
|
|
|
DARKANGEL6415
|
|
November 22, 2014, 07:37:14 PM |
|
Nobody has mentioned AMHash yet.
It's ASICMiners cloud mining service so you can be sure it's not a ponzi. 1 Gh/s costs < 1.2mBTC Maintenance fee of $0.00163 per Gh/s per day. Contracts can be traded on Havelock.
yeah i am trying out amhash1 on havelock got me a few small ghs just to get my feet wet. I think it is by far the best similarity to cex.io trading platform i can think of and i really like cex.io trading platform and how they show you like hash rate on ghash pool. Maybe havelock will do that show live hash rate just for information. Does anyone know if havelock offers scrypt mining contracts?
|
|
|
|
l3sny
|
|
November 22, 2014, 08:23:29 PM |
|
I think we may see soon the a series of collapses of all that fake 'cloud hashing' services as tthe difficulty is going down. Only the ones with true working miners will survive.
If the difficulty goes down and you have the hardware it is a good thing, do you mean that some cloud hashing companies are ponzis? Just a thought on this, but if the difficulty goes down, the ponzi would be unaffected as they are not dependent on the difficulty. They just payout with the money they took in, but are going to continue receiving contracts either way.. Well... your contract is supposed to mine more when difficulty is dropping or at least it's rising at much slower rate. After a couple of months a ponzi runs out of bitcoin as they do not have the real hardware in their possession. So far we are at the beginning of this slowing/dropping difficulty so I believe the defaults of the ponzi schemes are just ahead of us. Let's see in a month or two.
|
▄▄▓▓█▓▓█▀▀▀▀█▓▓██▓▄▄ ▄▓█▓▀ ▀▓█▓█ ▄▓█▓ ▄▄▄▓▓▓▓▓▓▄▄▄ ▀█▓▄ ▄▓██ ▄▓▓██████████████▓▓▄ ██▓▄ ▓██ ▓▓████████▓▀▀██████████▓ ██▓ ▓█░ █▓█████▓▀ ▓██ ▓██ ▀▓▓█████▓ ▓▓ ▓█ ▓█████▀ ▄▓▓██████▓▓▓▄ ▓████▓ ██ ▓██ █████▓ ▄▓▓ ▄██░▐███▄ ▀▓▓ ░▓███▓ ██▓ ██ █████ █▓ ▓████░▐████▓█ █▓ ░█████ ██ ██ ▐████ ▐█ ▓█████░▐██████░ █▌ █████ ██░ ██ ▐████ ▐██ ▓█████░▐█████▓ █▓ ░█████ ██░ ██ ████▓ █▓█ ▀▓▓██░▐██▓▓ █▓ ▓████ ██ ▐█▓ ░████▓▄ ▀▓▓▄▄██░▐███▄▓▓ █▓████░ ██▌ ▐██ ▓████▓▄▄ ▀██░▐███ ▄▓▓████▓░ ██▓ ▐█▓ █▓██████▓▓██████▓▓████████ ▐█▓ ▐█▓▄ ▀▓██████████████████▓▀ ▄▓██ ▐█▓▄ ▀▀▓▓████████▓▓▀▀ ▄▓██ ▓██▄ ▄█▓▓▀ ▀▓█▓▓▄▄ ▄▄▓▓█▓▀ ▀▀▓▓██████▓▓▀▀ | | ██ ██ ██ ██ ██ ██ ██ | | ██ ██ ██ ██ ██ ██ ██ | .Social Media.
| . ,▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ ▄████▀▀▀▀████▄ ▄███` ,▄▄, ▀██▄ ▐██▀ ▄███████ ██▌ ,▄███ ████████▌ ▐██▄, ,▄███████▄ █▄▄██▄▄█ ▄███████▄▄ ██████████████████████████████████, ▐████▌ ██████████████████ ▐█████ ▀████▄▄████████▀ "████████▄▄████▀ `▀████████████▄▄████████████▀▀ '▀▀▀▀▀█████████▀▀▀▀ ▄▄ ▄▄ ███ ▄▄⌐ ███ ███ ██▌ ▀██ ███ ██▌ ▀██ ██▌ |
|
|
|
picolo
|
|
November 22, 2014, 09:46:28 PM |
|
I think we may see soon the a series of collapses of all that fake 'cloud hashing' services as tthe difficulty is going down. Only the ones with true working miners will survive.
If the difficulty goes down and you have the hardware it is a good thing, do you mean that some cloud hashing companies are ponzis? Just a thought on this, but if the difficulty goes down, the ponzi would be unaffected as they are not dependent on the difficulty. They just payout with the money they took in, but are going to continue receiving contracts either way.. If the difficulty drops they have to pay more rewards so they would get into troubles faster than if the difficulty rises fast
|
|
|
|
DrG (OP)
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 2086
Merit: 1035
|
|
November 23, 2014, 11:24:17 AM |
|
This seems like a good thread to post my genesis vs gaw comparisons. I signed up with both of them 4-5 days ago around the same time. I bought a 2 MH with Genesis and a 1 MH with GAW to compare them before I spent some real money. Genesis is giving me around 8 cents a day and ive got a total of 40 cents from them in this time. I expected this.
GAW has been far worse. FAR WORSE. in the 4-5 days I have been with them I have 2 cents total. Not only that but the fees from GAW are eating away ALL of my profits. check these GAW payouts
BTC Payout 0.00020793 BTC Maintenance Fee -0.00020792 BTC
That is a huge problem. fees are taking the profits. I did not signup for that and I dont expect GAW to get any better. While genesis payments have decreased a tad they are still way better. I have not tried any other cloud mining companies yet. I was going to try a few more but after my experience with GAW i just dont know.
I'm still here. Been busy with life. I'll update the OP when I get a chance, but the main point of the thread was to serve as a warning rather than an advertisement for various cloud sites. Anybody who has interest in buying these services is probably reading the last couple of pages of the thread anyways. It is smart to start very small to see how much you can get. Cheap Ghs, safe company and low maintenance fees is the winning combination but if the company is well established you will get higher prices That is why you gotta try www.cloudmining.website (0.001 BTC/Ghs), www.cloudminer.io (0.0014 BTC/Ghs), www.hashie.io (4.59 USD/Ghs) etc. where u can actually have some profit. Lower price with higher risks sometimes means a better chance to ROI. Cloudminer is very new but going strong; hashie is interesting if the price of BTC rises I'm not sure whether OP checks this thread anymore. I think, these new 3 are to be included in OP's list...
|
|
|
|
DARKANGEL6415
|
|
November 24, 2014, 04:24:56 AM |
|
This seems like a good thread to post my genesis vs gaw comparisons. I signed up with both of them 4-5 days ago around the same time. I bought a 2 MH with Genesis and a 1 MH with GAW to compare them before I spent some real money. Genesis is giving me around 8 cents a day and ive got a total of 40 cents from them in this time. I expected this.
GAW has been far worse. FAR WORSE. in the 4-5 days I have been with them I have 2 cents total. Not only that but the fees from GAW are eating away ALL of my profits. check these GAW payouts
BTC Payout 0.00020793 BTC Maintenance Fee -0.00020792 BTC
That is a huge problem. fees are taking the profits. I did not signup for that and I dont expect GAW to get any better. While genesis payments have decreased a tad they are still way better. I have not tried any other cloud mining companies yet. I was going to try a few more but after my experience with GAW i just dont know.
I'm still here. Been busy with life. I'll update the OP when I get a chance, but the main point of the thread was to serve as a warning rather than an advertisement for various cloud sites. Anybody who has interest in buying these services is probably reading the last couple of pages of the thread anyways. It is smart to start very small to see how much you can get. Cheap Ghs, safe company and low maintenance fees is the winning combination but if the company is well established you will get higher prices That is why you gotta try www.cloudmining.website (0.001 BTC/Ghs), www.cloudminer.io (0.0014 BTC/Ghs), www.hashie.io (4.59 USD/Ghs) etc. where u can actually have some profit. Lower price with higher risks sometimes means a better chance to ROI. Cloudminer is very new but going strong; hashie is interesting if the price of BTC rises I'm not sure whether OP checks this thread anymore. I think, these new 3 are to be included in OP's list... Well there we have it ladies and gentleman the person who started this post has checked in. I do see they did not say anything just kinda posted so we would see them here. I have not checked the 1st page to see if they updated the list of good cloud mining sites and the ones weeded out to be scams
|
|
|
|
kotwica666
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 2282
Merit: 1035
|
|
November 24, 2014, 12:44:30 PM |
|
Just a thought on this, but if the difficulty goes down, the ponzi would be unaffected as they are not dependent on the difficulty. They just payout with the money they took in, but are going to continue receiving contracts either way..
Well... your contract is supposed to mine more when difficulty is dropping or at least it's rising at much slower rate. After a couple of months a ponzi runs out of bitcoin as they do not have the real hardware in their possession. So far we are at the beginning of this slowing/dropping difficulty so I believe the defaults of the ponzi schemes are just ahead of us. Let's see in a month or two. Everything OK, but I don't get why we have to wait one or two months.. Ponzis should to run away right now.. unless they don't know how to count and don't know what is diff That will be nice if you will tell us which cloud mining services - in your opinion are the most suspicious..
|
|
|
|
jonnybravo0311
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1344
Merit: 1024
Mine at Jonny's Pool
|
|
November 24, 2014, 01:54:19 PM |
|
This seems like a good thread to post my genesis vs gaw comparisons. I signed up with both of them 4-5 days ago around the same time. I bought a 2 MH with Genesis and a 1 MH with GAW to compare them before I spent some real money. Genesis is giving me around 8 cents a day and ive got a total of 40 cents from them in this time. I expected this.
GAW has been far worse. FAR WORSE. in the 4-5 days I have been with them I have 2 cents total. Not only that but the fees from GAW are eating away ALL of my profits. check these GAW payouts
BTC Payout 0.00020793 BTC Maintenance Fee -0.00020792 BTC
That is a huge problem. fees are taking the profits. I did not signup for that and I dont expect GAW to get any better. While genesis payments have decreased a tad they are still way better. I have not tried any other cloud mining companies yet. I was going to try a few more but after my experience with GAW i just dont know.
I'm still here. Been busy with life. I'll update the OP when I get a chance, but the main point of the thread was to serve as a warning rather than an advertisement for various cloud sites. Anybody who has interest in buying these services is probably reading the last couple of pages of the thread anyways. It is smart to start very small to see how much you can get. Cheap Ghs, safe company and low maintenance fees is the winning combination but if the company is well established you will get higher prices That is why you gotta try www.cloudmining.website (0.001 BTC/Ghs), www.cloudminer.io (0.0014 BTC/Ghs), www.hashie.io (4.59 USD/Ghs) etc. where u can actually have some profit. Lower price with higher risks sometimes means a better chance to ROI. Cloudminer is very new but going strong; hashie is interesting if the price of BTC rises I'm not sure whether OP checks this thread anymore. I think, these new 3 are to be included in OP's list... Well there we have it ladies and gentleman the person who started this post has checked in. I do see they did not say anything just kinda posted so we would see them here. I have not checked the 1st page to see if they updated the list of good cloud mining sites and the ones weeded out to be scams DrG actually did post a reply, but he did it in the middle of the post he quoted. Here's his post: I'm still here. Been busy with life. I'll update the OP when I get a chance, but the main point of the thread was to serve as a warning rather than an advertisement for various cloud sites. Anybody who has interest in buying these services is probably reading the last couple of pages of the thread anyways. It is smart to start very small to see how much you can get. Cheap Ghs, safe company and low maintenance fees is the winning combination but if the company is well established you will get higher prices
|
Jonny's Pool - Mine with us and help us grow! Support a pool that supports Bitcoin, not a hardware manufacturer's pockets! No SPV cheats. No empty blocks.
|
|
|
picolo
|
|
November 24, 2014, 02:35:21 PM |
|
I think we may see soon the a series of collapses of all that fake 'cloud hashing' services as tthe difficulty is going down. Only the ones with true working miners will survive.
If the difficulty goes down and you have the hardware it is a good thing, do you mean that some cloud hashing companies are ponzis? Just a thought on this, but if the difficulty goes down, the ponzi would be unaffected as they are not dependent on the difficulty. They just payout with the money they took in, but are going to continue receiving contracts either way.. If the difficulty goes down they have to give bigger payout but they could increase the price of ghs or will receive more money since ROI will be easier obtained
|
|
|
|
bhokor
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 966
Merit: 1000
|
|
November 25, 2014, 01:09:48 AM |
|
Hi, i have a small chart about the payout of three diferennt cloud mining bussines i think it can help people, i´m updating this everyday and if someone have other payout data it will be interesting to add more Cloud mining providers watamby.ovh
|
|
|
|
kotwica666
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 2282
Merit: 1035
|
|
November 25, 2014, 01:15:42 AM |
|
Hi, i have a small chart about the payout of three diferennt cloud mining bussines i think it can help people, i´m updating this everyday and if someone have other payout data it will be interesting to add more Cloud mining providers watamby.ovhIt will be more comfortable to open this link if you will tell us about which cloud mining service you are talking.. And personally for me will be nice when someone confirm that this link is safe.. sorry - don't know this service
|
|
|
|
picolo
|
|
November 25, 2014, 02:12:29 AM |
|
Hi, i have a small chart about the payout of three diferennt cloud mining bussines i think it can help people, i´m updating this everyday and if someone have other payout data it will be interesting to add more Cloud mining providers watamby.ovh http://watamby.ovh/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/image.pngYou only have Genesis, Hashie, Amhash maybe you could add cex.io and cloudminr
|
|
|
|
DARKANGEL6415
|
|
November 25, 2014, 05:36:59 AM |
|
Hi, i have a small chart about the payout of three diferennt cloud mining bussines i think it can help people, i´m updating this everyday and if someone have other payout data it will be interesting to add more Cloud mining providers watamby.ovh http://watamby.ovh/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/image.pngYou only have Genesis, Hashie, Amhash maybe you could add cex.io and cloudminr i personally dont think there is any need to add cex.io. Well maybe just for informational purpose since i think i can say safely cex.io is probably one of the most legit real companies been around for years, show you where they mining, fast support response normally less than 24 hours.
|
|
|
|
|