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Gws24
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September 11, 2014, 07:19:13 PM
 #341

I edited my post above; Mateo was betting 1 BTC while max bet was 7.88 BTC and as far as I watched it go down he didn't go back to bigger bets other than an occasional 2 BTC bet. He went down to 0.75 BTC bets only when the max bet went below 1 BTC (and then to 0.5 BTC bets).

Most of the damage doen was with 1 BTC bets and I saw the profit go from 190 to 250 to 180 to 100 and further down.
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September 11, 2014, 07:21:57 PM
 #342

post with a screenshot of 8 btc bets at 1680 BTC bankroll: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=716312.msg8721491#msg8721491

Thanks. That must be what I was thinking of. I saw a screenshot, but didn't take it myself.

Note that he was betting near the maximum at that point. I didn't see him betting significantly below the maximum at any point, but I didn't watch most of it.

Edit: I see the 2nd screenshot showing 1 BTC bets with a max of 7.x so I stand corrected.

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September 11, 2014, 07:23:48 PM
 #343

I edited my post above; Mateo was betting 1 BTC while max bet was 7.88 BTC and as far as I watched it go down he didn't go back to bigger bets other than an occasional 2 BTC bet. He went down to 0.75 BTC bets only when the max bet went below 1 BTC (and then to 0.5 BTC bets).

Most of the damage doen was with 1 BTC bets and I saw the profit go from 190 to 250 to 180 to 100 and further down.

That's how i remember it as well.  I don't remember him going back up above 1 except for the rare 2btc bets after that.

if we can have some conservative assumptions based on the anecdotal evidence we procure from the crowd, we could possibly come up with some decent numbers.

ie. how many bets at each BTC level  (either by estimate on how many mins of betting at each BTC level, plus how many bets per sec or min) over the session

that might also turn into a shit show tho.
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September 11, 2014, 07:24:38 PM
 #344

Well, If you compare screenshots at page 58 of the thread linked then you see that at 8:32 he's betting almost the max and ten minutes later he's betting 1 BTC while the max is 7.88 BTC. Bit strange to go from max betting to 'just' 1 BTC. Point is, most of the damage was done with bets well below the max. He basically won at least 450 BTC (161 profit in the screenshot and plus minus -350 profit after his run) with 1 BTC bets or lower.

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September 11, 2014, 07:27:30 PM
 #345

Wait - Starting here and looking at a lot of the 8 BTC bets he was straight betting high https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=716312.msg8721404#msg8721404
http://pastebin.com/LrCt47ve


OMG he stole the seed arguement goes out the door imo unless he changes the bets.


So he started hammering the site with 1600 invested then when it dropped to 400 BTC it was basically a 1 on 1 fight to the death with 1 BTC Bets.

When the player has as much BTC as the bank a 1% is absolute shit.  BlackJack is 2% and normal roulette which is what this game is 5.6% with 0 & 00


i don't understand what you're getting at.

Assuming the player does have the seed, do you expect him to use the seed for perfect play?  No probably not, as that would be WAY too obvious.  You'd pick a winning side, Hi or Lo and stick with it.  But you know that after all your bets, you will have the upper hand on profits.  And it'll look as if you DONT have the seed.
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September 11, 2014, 07:27:54 PM
 #346

OMG he stole the seed arguement goes out the door imo unless he changes the bets.

The theory is that he knew the server seed and so could test thousands of client seeds against it to find one that resulted in more wins at 49.5% than losses in the first however man rolls.

If you pick your client seed just right, you can beat the 1% edge by flat betting 'hi' - for a finite number of rolls, at least.

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September 11, 2014, 07:30:54 PM
 #347

Here are stats I collected over recent days:


Fri Sep  5 08:46:27 PDT 2014      profit:       175.91141188    invested:       7,238.62508975  wagered:        30,959.2017     bets:   37,501,964
Sat Sep  6 10:11:26 PDT 2014      profit:       201.62990662    invested:       7,381.69733455  wagered:        31,810.6743     bets:   39,692,223
Sun Sep  7 07:40:03 PDT 2014      profit:       259.22495458    invested:       7,108.09065012  wagered:        32,159.8734     bets:   41,190,494
Sun Sep  7 17:46:25 PDT 2014      profit:       161.16300354    invested:       1,704.91132568  wagered:        32,993.4733     bets:   41,781,550
Mon Sep  8 08:10:55 PDT 2014      profit:      -205.78715499    invested:         704.96789890  wagered:        85,453.6730     bets:   42,516,227
Mon Sep  8 08:31:25 PDT 2014      profit:      -316.11279075    invested:         704.96789890  wagered:        89,743.0994     bets:   42,543,239 BANK:  99.71907091
Mon Sep  8 10:01:14 PDT 2014      profit:      -327.07568425    invested:       1,178.45375026  wagered:        90,949.9923     bets:   42,631,645 BANK: 562.24230998
Tue Sep  9 09:18:10 PDT 2014      profit:      -329.35365206    invested:       1,132.50293979  wagered:        91,298.6454     bets:   43,526,552 BANK: 514.02009646
Wed Sep 10 20:57:14 PDT 2014      profit:       -315.90377541   invested:       1,130.67616779  wagered:        91,741.0462     bets:   44,641,341 BANK: 525.63070559
Thu Sep 11 10:17:14 PDT 2014      profit:       -317.17418051   invested:       1,130.64611884  wagered:        91,764.8918     bets:   44,795,601 BANK: 524.29955187


It shows the huge jump in the amount wagered, but doesn't really help with the number of bets he made.

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September 11, 2014, 07:51:33 PM
 #348


Can anyone confirm this is them? If so this will help a lot when the FBI gets involved. They need to release the details on the mystery co-worker responsible or they are aiding and abetting a criminal. Even if they are not responsible for the malicious code crime itself a person aiding and abetting is just as guilty and is punished as if they did the crime themself.

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September 11, 2014, 07:58:04 PM
 #349

Here are stats I collected over recent days:


Fri Sep  5 08:46:27 PDT 2014      profit:       175.91141188    invested:       7,238.62508975  wagered:        30,959.2017     bets:   37,501,964
Sat Sep  6 10:11:26 PDT 2014      profit:       201.62990662    invested:       7,381.69733455  wagered:        31,810.6743     bets:   39,692,223
Sun Sep  7 07:40:03 PDT 2014      profit:       259.22495458    invested:       7,108.09065012  wagered:        32,159.8734     bets:   41,190,494
Sun Sep  7 17:46:25 PDT 2014      profit:       161.16300354    invested:       1,704.91132568  wagered:        32,993.4733     bets:   41,781,550
Mon Sep  8 08:10:55 PDT 2014      profit:      -205.78715499    invested:         704.96789890  wagered:        85,453.6730     bets:   42,516,227
Mon Sep  8 08:31:25 PDT 2014      profit:      -316.11279075    invested:         704.96789890  wagered:        89,743.0994     bets:   42,543,239 BANK:  99.71907091
Mon Sep  8 10:01:14 PDT 2014      profit:      -327.07568425    invested:       1,178.45375026  wagered:        90,949.9923     bets:   42,631,645 BANK: 562.24230998
Tue Sep  9 09:18:10 PDT 2014      profit:      -329.35365206    invested:       1,132.50293979  wagered:        91,298.6454     bets:   43,526,552 BANK: 514.02009646
Wed Sep 10 20:57:14 PDT 2014      profit:       -315.90377541   invested:       1,130.67616779  wagered:        91,741.0462     bets:   44,641,341 BANK: 525.63070559
Thu Sep 11 10:17:14 PDT 2014      profit:       -317.17418051   invested:       1,130.64611884  wagered:        91,764.8918     bets:   44,795,601 BANK: 524.29955187


It shows the huge jump in the amount wagered, but doesn't really help with the number of bets he made.
Looking at this I think you can. The wagered amount shoots up from 33k to 90k in less than a day. Before it was less than 1k per day so I think it is safe to assume that most of that wagered amount was from Mateo since I didn't see any other bettors on the high bets tab other than some people betting 0.1 at the 1.1x odds.

Assuming most of the volume was him and that most of his bets were at 1 BTC you arrive at 57k bets. Subtract a percentage of that to allow for other people betting (very few since everybody was trying to figure out what was going on) and the initial 8 BTC bets made by Mateo, say 20%  Huh, and you arrive at something like 45k bets.

EDIT: remember that he was robot rolling 1 BTC for a long time. Basically several bets per second for periods upto half an hour.

EDIT2: To see the other peoples bets on the high bets tab I actually had to take a screenshot in order to see who else was betting and ho much; that gives an indication that he was making a ton of bets per second.

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September 11, 2014, 08:00:04 PM
 #350


Can anyone confirm this is them? If so this will help a lot when the FBI gets involved. They need to release the details on the mystery co-worker responsible or they are aiding and abetting a criminal. Even if they are not responsible for the malicious code crime itself a person aiding and abetting is just as guilty and is punished as if they did the crime themself.

No need to notify the FBI, that girl on the picture is an undercover FBI agent.
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September 11, 2014, 08:17:32 PM
 #351


Can anyone confirm this is them? If so this will help a lot when the FBI gets involved. They need to release the details on the mystery co-worker responsible or they are aiding and abetting a criminal. Even if they are not responsible for the malicious code crime itself a person aiding and abetting is just as guilty and is punished as if they did the crime themself.

Open your eyes, there is no mystery co-worker. If there ever was one, DB would release his dox on the first day. Too late now. 
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September 11, 2014, 10:27:56 PM
 #352

So mateo wagered close to 60,000 BTC. I missed him making the larger bets but I saw him take 500BTC in one session with mostly 0.5 BTC bets. Sometimes 1 BTC, sometimes 0.75, then eventually .2 and .1

I am going to assume he would need to constantly wager more and more small amounts as the bankroll got smaller. It doesn't seem unlikely to me that he made well upwards of 100,000 bets.
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September 11, 2014, 11:09:22 PM
Last edit: September 12, 2014, 04:26:45 AM by anp31
 #353


here with the mysterious coworker

http://saltandlighttv.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/20140526cnsto0178.jpg
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September 12, 2014, 06:53:14 AM
Last edit: September 12, 2014, 12:43:41 PM by Joecker
 #354

Aaaa'right, here I come again. As someone said, all that mathshit obfuscates the reality of what happened.

It will be slightly over too much, certainly off-topic, but I am only writing this partial analysis for entertainment, for personal interest and for educational purposes Wink May contain errors.

 
The event

Mateonl robbed the bank.

The question (?)

How lucky was he ? Very. That's a non mathematical question, so that's a non mathematical answer.

To push the analysis a little bit further, one needs to consider two (ideally mutually exclusive) answers
a) he was just lucky,
b) he was way too lucky, game was rigged.

"Methodology"

To decide between a) and b), we need to
- ask a mathematical question "What is the probability P that... "
- fix a limit number P0 such that if P>P0, well conclude that it was luck, if P<=P0, we'll conclude that  it was rigged
- compute P, decide.
Ain'no Joe Got' Time fo Dat!

Before formulating zee questions and the before zee Germans arrive, I spy with my little eye
Three Approaches to answer a "what is the probability..." question
1) statistical study based on observations
2) choosing a model and making a statistical study based on simulations
3) choosing a model and perform a mathematical analysis (purely theoretical approach)

Depending on the problem and the amount of information and knowledge available, each approach has its own benefits and drawbacks. In a perfect world, if we do a good job, 1) and 2) and 3) should be all consistent.

About approach 1, since we've seen only one mateonl guy rob the bank only one time, our sample size is two or at best two (Nakowa's case, should they be comparable). From a purely observational point of view, no conclusions can be made with only one observation other than "the observations show that if you bet like manlteo and have the same initial fund, you WILL rob the bank". Well, good luck with that!

Do we all appreciate the elegant Simplicity of simulations and the strange Beauty of statistical theory.  Yes ? No ?!  Cry Cry Doesn't matter, I'll do none of'em anymore.


Assumptions, available information and the probability questions


Ok we're choosing a model. Ideally, it should be as close as possible to the reality. All bets are @49.5%.  That's our model, but also the reality. Lucky us.

Mateonl has a finite initial fund. So he can bust. And our probability will depend on that  parameter which is.... tuduuu unknown. At all time, bankroll cannot go in the negative. So bank can bust too. Recall that, obviously, mateo didn't bust. Indeed, if he did, he would have stopped on a loss, which is  not what happened. From a probabilistic point of view, these two statements must be taken into account, I don't repeat them below.

For the sake of simplicity, many approximations are to be made, among which : now new  investments in the bankroll and no withdrawals were made during the bets, no other whale neither etc etc. I also wrote numbers out my memory, just for illustration.

The questions

I will formulate two seemingly similar questions.

I) Given this list of bets which are all realized (in this order)
5k bets at 7
5k bets at 3
25k bets at 1
25k bets at 0.5
what is the probability to end up wining 85% or more* of the initial bankroll ?
*(if we are in the mindset of thinking "what is the probability to be at least as lucky as mantoel")

II) Given this list of bets which are realized (in this order) so long as the bankroll contains more or just 15%  of the initial bankroll:
at most 5k bets at 7
then at most 5k bets at 3
then at most 25k bets at 1
then at most 25k bets at 0.5
what is the probability to end up wining 85% of the initial bankroll ?


One can arguably say for question I) that it allows the bankroll to go under 15% of its initial state, which is not exactly what we saw happening. But again, if we think of the probability "betting like maeto did, to be luckier than him" as "to win more than 85% of iBR " it is a reasonnable assumption.

Similarly for question II) it allows the betting to finish before 60k bets, which is not exactly what we saw happening. But again, if we think of the probability "betting like maeto did, to be luckier than him" as "to win .xx. btc quicker than him " it is a reasonnable assumption.

Mmh strange.. none of those replicates what we saw!!! Let's take the two conditions into account: what is the probability to make exactly 60k bets like he did, win exactly 85% BR, BR never go under 15% before the end. Given the large number of bets, I think that modelling this would involve a massive shitload of combinatorial arguments (partitioning of numbers). Approximation would probably be the way to go... but let's stick with I) and/or II) and... ?

Now about dooglus' simulation, the probability he finds is the answer (I think) to this question :

III) Given that
- all bets are continuously updated at the maximum bet size (which is 0.5% of bankroll) all the time at most 60k times,
- betting stops if bankroll reaches 15% of initial BR,
what is the probability to win 85% of the initial bankroll ?


This formulation does not make use of the available information about matnl bets. So it'd be of interest to answer this question: betting at max bet at most 60k times, what is the prob to be as lucky as him (in other words, to win exactly what he won).

This last question is of interest essentialy for the casino only as it will help determine the probability of ruin or survival time to a whale (who'd bet only @49.5% .. mmh).

This is just three out of a quazillion choices. But they each help to answer slightly different questions.

You might wonder "what is the probability to end up wining 85% (or 100%) of the initial bankroll ?" without any restriction on the betting strategy. Well it's a Gogol-fucking-infinitely complex question as it involves all allowed betting strategies. Remember your math course ?
P(win 85%) = P(win 85%|Strategy1)P(Strategy1) + ... +P(win 85%|Strategy-BIG)P(StrategyBIG).

I'm done here...

I did some biiiig simplifications on my previous posts and estimates, where I choose the analytical approach. Its power is limited with more complex models..
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September 12, 2014, 08:28:22 AM
 #355

another point which I dont see anyone paid attention to is the speed of the betting. It was really fast. From my computer i usually can bet at 2 bets per second. Maybe 3 or 4 bets per second at max.

Looking at how mateo was betting the other day make me believe it was betting on the server or somewhere very near the server for such a fast response time. That is to assume that it does bet through the website where the bet button get disabled while waiting for last bet to finish.

So my conclusion is that:
1) it was betting on the main website from a PC very near to the server (or from the server itself)
2) it was betting using some sort of API (i'm not aware of any public API) or custom software, where it keep sending a bunch of betting calls and not wait for bet result.


Currently the cold wallet hold 440 BTC?? who is invested? i'm there gambling again, with smaller amount of coz.
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September 12, 2014, 08:46:55 AM
 #356

another point which I dont see anyone paid attention to is the speed of the betting. It was really fast. From my computer i usually can bet at 2 bets per second. Maybe 3 or 4 bets per second at max.

Looking at how mateo was betting the other day make me believe it was betting on the server or somewhere very near the server for such a fast response time. That is to assume that it does bet through the website where the bet button get disabled while waiting for last bet to finish.

I noticed that too. Never seen anyone bet that fast before on the site.

I think Monero (XMR) is very interesting.
https://moneroeconomy.com/faq/why-monero-matters
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I lost the liqour money boys...


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September 12, 2014, 09:17:42 AM
 #357

I estimated 30 bets per second but it was so fast it was nearly impossible to say for certain.
sumantso
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September 12, 2014, 09:20:16 AM
 #358

The funny part is that it was being suggested before Mateo turned up that some big whale is going to get very lucky and clean it all up. Watching it unfold pretty much guranteed that the owners took the shareholders money.

wayshegoes
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I lost the liqour money boys...


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September 12, 2014, 10:08:42 AM
 #359

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=761086.msg8582381#msg8582381

Seems like manl and gerry blew all their funds as well as investor funds on ponzi schemes.
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September 12, 2014, 10:11:40 AM
 #360

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=761086.msg8582381#msg8582381

Seems like manl and gerry blew all their funds on ponzi schemes.

13days ago...

And you probably should update your sarcasm detector Wink

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