Bitminter bitcoin mining pool - shutdown mining 2020-07-01 website 2021-06-01

[DrHaribo]

No doubt they've a method when to come/go, and how much work to do, to maximise profits..

You can't do this with PPLNS. That is the whole reason PPLNS was invented, to prevent pool hopping.

Pool hopping was a problem in the olden days when pools used the proportional reward method. You can read about it here: https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/5072/what-is-pool-hopping

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[gt_addict]

Obviously just spreading the hash about a bit so its not all in one pool. Probably trying to figure out if they can earn more here compared to where they were.

[MrZipster]

No doubt they've a method when to come/go, and how much work to do, to maximise profits..

You can't do this with PPLNS. That is the whole reason PPLNS was invented, to prevent pool hopping.
Pool hopping was a problem in the olden days when pools used the proportional reward method. You can read about it here: https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/5072/what-is-pool-hopping

Hi Doc, sure appreciate that, didn't mean hopping as such.
There's no other stat anywhere they're keeping an eye on/evaluating, or even gambling on?
(At either Bitminter end, or whichever pool(s) they're bouncing between?)

[DrHaribo]

There's no other stat anywhere they're keeping an eye on/evaluating, or even gambling on?

They got very good payouts because we had a bunch of lucky blocks in a row.

But that's only due to luck. And you can't predict future luck. So yes, gambling is the right word. But there are no stats or anything at all to improve your gambling odds.

Some people do believe that if you are lucky today then you will be lucky tomorrow as well. Other people believe that if you are lucky today then you have to be unlucky tomorrow because it has to even out. It makes no sense at all. But I guess people have their superstitions.

[MrZipster]

There's no other stat anywhere they're keeping an eye on/evaluating, or even gambling on?

They got very good payouts because we had a bunch of lucky blocks in a row.
But that's only due to luck. And you can't predict future luck. So yes, gambling is the right word. But there are no stats or anything at all to improve your gambling odds.
Some people do believe that if you are lucky today then you will be lucky tomorrow as well.
Other people believe that if you are lucky today then you have to be unlucky tomorrow because it has to even out. It makes no sense at all. But I guess people have their superstitions.

No probs re: the luck side. What I meant, but could've done a better job of explaining (and which I think the OP meant!) is...

The 10 shifts/PPLNS isn't perfect. An example - the 2018-09-08 to 2019-01-21 dry spell where nothing came in... That was a 136 day run, but the first 96 days were wiped out.

So if a single person had provided 100% of the computational power for those first 96 days only, they wouldn't have seen a payment despite having done the vast majority of the work.

Assumption is that it all about balances out.. Say, A does 10%, B does 40%, and C does 50%, so long as those ratios are maintained for the 136 days, they get the payments they deserve. Otherwise, it'll wiggle around a little though, as people come and go etc, obviously.

On that 136 day block, I seem to remember some bigger players landing towards the end.. Perhaps thinking "It's gotta go soon!"..

Now C from above, might've provided 50% of the power for the first 96 days, but when the big fellas roll up, that percentage reduces and continues to with every shift.


So I think what myself and the OP meant was, are there any loopholes/weaknesses/cheats (whatever you'd want to call them), that may not be obvious to the layman, but which he could be using to give himself an (entirely legal!) little advantage?

It just seems peculiar he points his flamethrower over, but not all the time!

[Biffa]

Probably just like all the other whales that visit the smaller pools every now and then, he just has this pool setup as a failover.

Its most likely just random chance that a) they failed over here at the same time as b) they had good luck finding a couple of blocks.

You're just trying to assign a pattern or logic to something that is entirely luck driven.

[DrHaribo]

It may seem most fair that if you did 10% of the work between the time blocks A and B were found, then you get 10% of the coins paid out for block B. Because "you did 10% of the work needed to find block B".

That may seem like a fair system with no loophole. Unfortunately this is the proportional reward system which has a nasty loophole that gets abused. It is a very unfair reward system. Pool hoppers get paid much more than the 24/7 miners, on their expense.

PPLNS ("pay per last N shares/shifts"), pays the last N amount of work, for some number N. It may feel unfair if you did some work and it was no longer among the "last N shifts" when the block gets found so it didn't get paid. Then a big miner arrives, does a lot of work, after which several lucky blocks are found, so their work gets paid multiple times. It may feel like they are using a loophole. In fact it is completely random and could easily have been the other way around.

With PPLNS when you do a bit of work it is completely random whether it gets paid zero, one, two, or even more times. There is no way to predict it. There is no loophole.

If you feel bad that a big miner did most of the work in a shift that got paid 3 times because we found 3 lucky blocks, while you got "squeezed out" of this shift and didn't profit as much as you would have hoped - it was random. It could have been a shift that got paid zero times. In that case the big miner saved you by taking a larger share of this unlucky period of mining.

Mining is a lottery. Sometimes you get lucky and other times unlucky. The important thing for fairness is that the reward system makes it impossible to know whether future payouts will be high or low. That ensures a fair system with no loopholes.

[MrZipster]

PPLNS ("pay per last N shares/shifts"), pays the last N amount of work, for some number N. It may feel unfair if you did some work and it was no longer among the "last N shifts" when the block gets found so it didn't get paid. Then a big miner arrives, does a lot of work, after which several lucky blocks are found, so their work gets paid multiple times. It may feel like they are using a loophole. In fact it is completely random and could easily have been the other way around.

Guys, I'm obviously not explaining myself as well as I should so I'll stop there before I annoy.

I understand luck/prediction etc.. And that in my example it could've happened the other way around. The example was just to point out PPLNS does have a flaw - I wondered were there other quirks?

I understand as well if there's no reason he comes and goes.. He may be bored, his other pool may be down, etc.

I suppose in it's most simple form my question was just:

    "Is there any little quirk of PPLNS he could be taking advantage of, reason he comes/goes?"

In it's most simple form the answer would've been:

    "Nah.. Probably has the pool as a failover or he's trying out some different ones, etc."

His coming/going doesn't bother me at all, I'd rather have lower payments more regularly. There's no ill feeling anywhere, just idle curiousity.

[MrZipster]

Two in a day! :-D

[gt_addict]

Two in a day! :-D

Well that second one is a nice surprise. Keep them coming chet, two a day will certainly make up for the lack of share percentage I get when your mining here 

[MrZipster]

Two in a day! :-D

Well that second one is a nice surprise. Keep them coming chet, two a day will certainly make up for the lack of share percentage I get when your mining here 

What about that third?

Then the fourth...?

Four in a little over 24hrs - madness! :-D

[chetminer]

Hey Its chetjstojanovich user on Bitminter. If you are at all inconvenienced by the hash power I contribute to the pool I can reroute mine and that of my clients elsewhere. If there is a user ID that I can route a little hash to that would make up for any losses of % please let me know. I don't mean to inconvenience anyone. I'm a retailer of mining hardware with hosting included in the price. Those friends of mine are also clients. Please forgive any inconvenience as we truly believe in the space of BTC and Mining. If you would like us to leave the pool just ask and it will be done by the end of day.
chetminingco.com

[MrZipster]

Hey Its chetjstojanovich user on Bitminter. If you are at all inconvenienced by the hash power I contribute to the pool I can reroute mine and that of my clients elsewhere. If there is a user ID that I can route a little hash to that would make up for any losses of % please let me know. I don't mean to inconvenience anyone. I'm a retailer of mining hardware with hosting included in the price. Those friends of mine are also clients. Please forgive any inconvenience as we truly believe in the space of BTC and Mining. If you would like us to leave the pool just ask and it will be done by the end of day. chetminingco.com

Hi Chet, not sure how much my wee vote will count - a relative newbie at only 3yrs mining, and a mere 4x S9/T9's to contribute.
I've not minded you being around at all though.
Great to see blocks being splattered all over the place - personally I'd rather have a smaller proportion of reward, but get it a lot more often.
Can't believe the pool saw four blocks off today, must be a record of some sort - we'll have to get Norris McWhirter in to confirm.

[OldSchoolCPU]

Hi Chet,

I don't think you should leave this pool. I welcome the hash power. More blocks in a shorter time. I've been on and off this pool for the last two years, and have not seen anything close to your hash power. So.......kick off your shoes..........stay a while..........you, and your friends..........

[gt_addict]

Hi Chet,

By all means stay, I would rather have a small piece of something frequently than a bigger piece of something months apart. 👍🏼

[chetminer]

I will just contribute less for the time being and if we get a better deal on fee structures for our main user account and that of our clients/user then we will contribute more on a consistent basis. We are Building a pool of our own which will contribute hash power to our own and others that supports all mineable coins. We will do a bracketed fee structure based on membership levels. 7 levels the top-level user will have zero fees or a life paid membership. That way I don't get any more hateful messages and we can also work out lower fees with other pools. A PPLNS. Man, I hate that people use the internet for such things such as cruel and hateful comments. I love our industry believe it has the potential to bring the highest level of good out of people and their ethics in business. I expect the best from it and the people in it. We stand for self-accountability, self-Regulation, and freedom from institutions when people violate that and those tenants it really bothers me. I hope that my pool combined with my exchanges provides a turnkey soulution for everyone. I hope that this benefits everyone equally, small pools/users and large pools/user, I am also going to offer to buy out any pools if they wish to sell so we can offer this everywhere. I think that its the only way to be fair about hash power as well as exchanges not to mention the entire resale and hardware manufacturing market with turnkey colo services. as I won't do business with anyone who violates the kind of value provided by decentralization. I don't know what you guys think about solving this through this approach a one-stop-shop for all things crypto and crypto mining.

[komominer]

I'm a retailer of mining hardware with hosting included in the price. Those friends of mine are also clients.

We stand for self-accountability, self-Regulation, and freedom from institutions when people violate that and those tenants it really bothers me.

Hey chet, by all means, STAY! Since you arrived, my miners at nicehash have been very profitable! I thought it was a coincidence at first -- every time Mr chet mined at bitminter, my profitability there would rise. But it was no coincidence, right Chet? . Chet is willing to pay a 10% -- sometimes a 20% premium over market rate for his hashpower. Makes you wonder why they are paying 1.2btc for each 1.0btc earned, though... Anyway, stay!!

[MrZipster]

Hey chet, by all means, STAY! Since you arrived, my miners at nicehash have been very profitable! I thought it was a coincidence at first -- every time Mr chet mined at bitminter, my profitability there would rise. But it was no coincidence, right Chet? . Chet is willing to pay a 10% -- sometimes a 20% premium over market rate for his hashpower. Makes you wonder why they are paying 1.2btc for each 1.0btc earned, though... Anyway, stay!!

Huh? So what's all that about then?

[OldSchoolCPU]

Chet,

If the post I left on 7/17, was misconstrued or misunderstood, (I was just making an observation, and voicing my own personal opinion, not that it matters much.), I sincerely apologize, if it offended you/your friends.

My opinions/comments are mine and mine alone, and not indicative of this forum or of Bitminter.

You are free to mine whatever pool you want, just like the rest of us here.

 



 

[remnokc]

Shoot Chet! Yes please stay.I wish you could be with the pool 24/7!