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Author Topic: Bitcoin Savings and Trust is probably a Ponzi Scheme: A Petition  (Read 25075 times)
JoelKatz
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May 10, 2012, 11:32:40 PM
 #161

According to my research, his real name is most likely one of the following:

Ends Thorns
Dents Horns
Tends Horns
Sends Thorn
Sends North
Shorn Dents

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PatrickHarnett
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May 11, 2012, 12:52:43 AM
 #162

Most likely?

Joel is not being serious, or else has not looked at the list.  How likely are any of those names - Mr North maybe, but who would call their kid Sends?
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May 15, 2012, 01:19:21 AM
 #163

I'm pretty sure he isn't Don Schrents.

What are the consequences of listing a fake name on domain registration?   My limited research shows that it makes it more likely that you'll lose the domain in the event of a domain name conflict (eg. a trademark dispute).


Are people saying that his name is on this list?
http://www.co.midland.tx.us/da/hotcheckwarrants/list/?lname=sz

If so I'm not sure how I am meant to find it.   It could based on age and estimate that he is 40 years old when he joined the forum (so born in 1970 or 1971), but that is highly tentative.  He might just like the Pirate At 40 song by Jimmy Buffett.


In other news, the size of the pass-through bond sales are growing and the partnership is even offering derivatives based on them (so you can share in their profits from selling bonds).  They also continue to make a large profit on the offering (so long as there is no default).  They are auctioning the bonds for a final price of 1.10, so people are getting a 15% monthly return on them - which is shockingly low by ponzi scheme standards =)

Don't day trade.
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May 15, 2012, 02:07:28 AM
 #164

I'm pretty sure he isn't Don Schrents.

What are the consequences of listing a fake name on domain registration?   My limited research shows that it makes it more likely that you'll lose the domain in the event of a domain name conflict (eg. a trademark dispute).


Are people saying that his name is on this list?
http://www.co.midland.tx.us/da/hotcheckwarrants/list/?lname=sz

If so I'm not sure how I am meant to find it.   It could based on age and estimate that he is 40 years old when he joined the forum (so born in 1970 or 1971), but that is highly tentative.  He might just like the Pirate At 40 song by Jimmy Buffett.


In other news, the size of the pass-through bond sales are growing and the partnership is even offering derivatives based on them (so you can share in their profits from selling bonds).  They also continue to make a large profit on the offering (so long as there is no default).  They are auctioning the bonds for a final price of 1.10, so people are getting a 15% monthly return on them - which is shockingly low by ponzi scheme standards =)

Actually, 15% per month is high or about right by ponzi standards. See what Madoff's monthly returns were and you'll be shocked. I'm not going to debate this topic anymore, but I do not want to see any more misinformation than is already in this thread.

I'll wait for all the angry "Pirate's not paying! I lost 4000 btc!!" threads next year.

cytokine
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May 15, 2012, 02:46:53 AM
 #165

If you do invest, I'd say manage your money *as if* it's a ponzi scheme ( i.e. assume a default will occur at some point in the future ), so you win no matter what happens in the end.

However, be wary that greed has a way of blurring your judgement; somehow many of those Madoff investors who even knew it was a ponzi lost money - they just kept thinking it could last "just one more quarter". Even investors who got out early were hurt due to clawback - but of course in the bitcoin world there is no clawback. When you think about it, bitcoins are the perfect instrument for ponzi schemes in a way... with sufficient anonymity, the perpetrator can actually enjoy their winnings on a beach in Jamaica when it all falls apart.

Note that I'm not claiming it's a ponzi; I have absolutely no proof nor evidence either way. I'm just saying be prudent with your hard earned bitcoins. Money easily gotten is often easily lost.
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May 15, 2012, 03:22:39 AM
 #166

When you think about it, bitcoins are the perfect instrument for ponzi schemes in a way... with sufficient anonymity, the perpetrator can actually enjoy their winnings on a beach in Jamaica when it all falls apart.

Not in this case.  He's far from anonymous.  But then again, neither was Madoff.

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PatrickHarnett
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May 15, 2012, 03:31:26 AM
 #167

In other news, the size of the pass-through bond sales are growing and the partnership is even offering derivatives based on them (so you can share in their profits from selling bonds).  They also continue to make a large profit on the offering (so long as there is no default).  They are auctioning the bonds for a final price of 1.10, so people are getting a 15% monthly return on them - which is shockingly low by ponzi scheme standards =)

I don't consider a class of shares in an enterprise a derivative, however, there were some others attempting derivatives including that MPOE-PR thing and Meni had his anti-pirate bonds.

However, it is an interesting idea to provide some derivatives off PPT.  Put and call options anyone? 
cytokine
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May 15, 2012, 03:40:09 AM
 #168

When you think about it, bitcoins are the perfect instrument for ponzi schemes in a way... with sufficient anonymity, the perpetrator can actually enjoy their winnings on a beach in Jamaica when it all falls apart.

Not in this case.  He's far from anonymous.  But then again, neither was Madoff.

If that is the case, then I completely retract that part of my statement - but the larger point I'm trying to make is still valid: it's probably a good idea to periodically take profits from any successful yet inherently risky investment endeavour, no matter what it is. It is true for all forms of investing in my opinion. I do not wish to spread FUD here so I appreciate the above correction.
PatrickHarnett
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May 15, 2012, 07:16:28 AM
 #169

If that is the case, then I completely retract that part of my statement - but the larger point I'm trying to make is still valid: it's probably a good idea to periodically take profits from any successful yet inherently risky investment endeavour, no matter what it is. It is true for all forms of investing in my opinion. I do not wish to spread FUD here so I appreciate the above correction.

Diversification is always an appropriate strategy, especially combined with rebalancing a portfolio.  Also consider the risk of having too much of your wealth tied up in BTC, rather than just focusing on pir8.  It's good to work with baskets of products that fit your risk tolerance.

Agreed, that is why I have limited my exposure to BTC overall, and as a subset, exposure to Pirate.
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May 15, 2012, 04:12:50 PM
 #170

wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee


Pirate bank = fail proof.. UNLESS>>> dun dun dun, the market is closed up by the gov. in which case we're all doomed...



if you knew what his biz model is, selling your placed coins at almost 76% markup then you would not start threads like this.


and who gives a shit who he is irl??



cheers

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Raoul Duke
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May 15, 2012, 08:08:23 PM
 #171

wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee


Pirate bank = fail proof.. UNLESS>>> dun dun dun, the market is closed up by the gov. in which case we're all doomed...



if you knew what his biz model is, selling your placed coins at almost 76% markup then you would not start threads like this.


and who gives a shit who he is irl??



cheers

ROTFL

bitlane
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May 15, 2012, 08:47:49 PM
 #172

Shouldn't you guys be slipping on your tinfoil hats and heading back over to crucify zhoutong and Intersango for stealing Christmas ?
I recently came across information that points directly to Intersango being the 3rd gunman on the grassy knoll as well as zhoutong knowing about 9/11 BEFORE it happened.....and may have remotely flown one of the highjacked planes (the one headed for Santa's Workshop, but never arrived due to the passengers fighting back).

You should all hurry over there NOW !


I must admit however, it is nice to see equal opportunity trolling on this forum....never putting all of your 'flames' into 1 basket.

Good job guys !

imsaguy
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May 15, 2012, 09:06:19 PM
 #173

Shouldn't you guys be slipping on your tinfoil hats and heading back over to crucify zhoutong and Intersango for stealing Christmas ?
I recently came across information that points directly to Intersango being the 3rd gunman on the grassy knoll as well as zhoutong knowing about 9/11 BEFORE it happened.....and may have remotely flown one of the highjacked planes (the one headed for Santa's Workshop, but never arrived due to the passengers fighting back).

You should all hurry over there NOW !


I must admit however, it is nice to see equal opportunity trolling on this forum....never putting all of your 'flames' into 1 basket.

Good job guys !

subed.

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P4man
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May 16, 2012, 08:36:24 AM
 #174

if you knew what his biz model is, selling your placed coins at almost 76% markup then you would not start threads like this.

If anyone knows how to sell bitcoins for a 76% markup, I figure they'd be doing just that themselves, rather than lending pirate money. So Im assuming anyone depositing their money at Pirate doesnt have a clue either.

And if pirate knows how to sell seemingly unlimited amounts of bitcoins at a 76% markup, why does he still need to borrow? He will have to buy those bitcoins back anyway, since you say he is selling the coins he borrows. Surely he wouldnt sell other people's coins without replenishing them at some point, right?  So whats the point of borrowing? It only means he has to buy many more coins on an exchange or otherwise and waste a massive amount of profit on paying interest fees.  Unless of course, he is replenishing his sold bitcoins by borrowing more. Thats a business model I do understand.

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May 16, 2012, 05:42:57 PM
 #175

if you knew what his biz model is, selling your placed coins at almost 76% markup then you would not start threads like this.

If anyone knows how to sell bitcoins for a 76% markup, I figure they'd be doing just that themselves, rather than lending pirate money. So Im assuming anyone depositing their money at Pirate doesnt have a clue either.

And if pirate knows how to sell seemingly unlimited amounts of bitcoins at a 76% markup, why does he still need to borrow? He will have to buy those bitcoins back anyway, since you say he is selling the coins he borrows. Surely he wouldnt sell other people's coins without replenishing them at some point, right?  So whats the point of borrowing? It only means he has to buy many more coins on an exchange or otherwise and waste a massive amount of profit on paying interest fees.  Unless of course, he is replenishing his sold bitcoins by borrowing more. Thats a business model I do understand.

I like cheese. =)

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ShadowAlexey
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May 16, 2012, 06:18:40 PM
 #176

Dont you miss a point that it is difficult to get funds, because bitcoin is unstable and there are others who want to borrow funds at your "normal" rate?
And if you can get more by having more btc available for sale?
It all depends on how much btc are people ready to buy in bulk and how much does Pirate have. Any way even if he is running ponzi I dont think that he is not investing in something like MMM, thats how he can get profit without any trouble,but we should be ready for everything,or hope that Pirate one day will provide info about his exchange with some details to check.

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sadpandatech
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May 16, 2012, 06:59:10 PM
 #177

Dont you miss a point that it is difficult to get funds, because bitcoin is unstable and there are others who want to borrow funds at your "normal" rate?
And if you can get more by having more btc available for sale?

aye, they all know that as it was covered extensively when he was first asked why the need for garunteed available funds.  people are quick to forget.


and stop pming me to ask zomg, how 75%.. hehehehehehehe ask him.  Kiss

If you're not excited by the idea of being an early adopter 'now', then you should come back in three or four years and either tell us "Told you it'd never work!" or join what should, by then, be a much more stable and easier-to-use system. - GA
It is being worked on by smart people. -DamienBlack
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May 17, 2012, 02:25:21 AM
 #178

Dont you miss a point that it is difficult to get funds, because bitcoin is unstable and there are others who want to borrow funds at your "normal" rate?
And if you can get more by having more btc available for sale?

aye, they all know that as it was covered extensively when he was first asked why the need for garunteed available funds.  people are quick to forget.


and stop pming me to ask zomg, how 75%.. hehehehehehehe ask him.  Kiss

pirate wakes up with 347 PMs, lulz!

RAWR RAWR   Grin

If you're not excited by the idea of being an early adopter 'now', then you should come back in three or four years and either tell us "Told you it'd never work!" or join what should, by then, be a much more stable and easier-to-use system. - GA
It is being worked on by smart people. -DamienBlack
PatrickHarnett
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May 17, 2012, 03:23:56 AM
 #179

So, referring back to the OP, what was the count of those that agreed BS&T is a ponzi?  It's at least 5 (out of 55000 members).  Even Ross Perot polled 18.9%.
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May 17, 2012, 04:48:36 AM
 #180

So, referring back to the OP, what was the count of those that agreed BS&T is a ponzi?  It's at least 5 (out of 55000 members).  Even Ross Perot polled 18.9%.

This might not be completely accurate, but here's what I've seemed to find in this thread:


Ponzi:
nrd525
MarketNeutral
terrytibbs
Maged
theymos
JoelKatz
Matthew N. Wright
P4man
curious
Sukrim

Not a ponzi:
bitlane
ineededausername
PatrickHarnett
coin_toss
reeses
exahash
Otoh
psy
Tomatocage
sadpandatech

Neutral:
Meni Rosenfeld
jcpham
cytokine

Unknown (leaning towards not a ponzi):
hashking
BurtW
imsaguy
znort987
splatster
johnthedong
farfiman
miscreanity
ShadowAlexey
Chaang Noi (Goat) ช้างน้อย

Unknown (leaning towards ponzi):
pekv2


So, out of the people that had some kind of opinion, approximately 30.5% of posters here believe that it is a ponzi, 61.1% think it's not, and 8.3% are neutral.

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