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Author Topic: Bitcoin Savings and Trust is probably a Ponzi Scheme: A Petition  (Read 25156 times)
PatrickHarnett
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May 17, 2012, 05:04:27 AM
 #181

Wow, that took some counting. 

By the way Imsa, I'm not sure it's not a ponzi, it's that I don't have a reason to believe it is one.  It might still be, I don't know for definite.  Certainly when I opened my account five months ago I considered it, but the concern most people have is if it simply disappears (ponzi or not). 

Maybe it's simply a good way to channel presidential campaign funds - vote Palin - the world needs a good laugh.
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JoelKatz
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May 17, 2012, 06:10:03 AM
 #182

To be a bit more precise about my position, I don't think it's a Ponzi because it doesn't fit the pattern of a Ponzi very well -- at least, not yet. However, I cannot imagine anything legitimate that it could possibly be.

Update: Also, I can't imagine it being wise to invest in something when you have absolutely no basis on which to estimate the level of risk involved.

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May 17, 2012, 09:40:55 AM
 #183

Woah Maged, I don’t want to be on record having explicitely said it is not a ponzi. Put me in the unknown camp that leans towards not ponzi. I pretty much share the opinion Patrick and Joel just expressed in the last two posts.

I would never recommend anyone to invest with him since even if it is not a ponzi, it might be risky, or invest in anything for that matter, not even Bitcoins.

Everyone should make his own bets, and my personal bet right now remains the same, though it might change as I continue evaluating things.
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May 17, 2012, 02:20:31 PM
 #184

Even if it's not a ponzi, I can't see how it's not a high risk endeavor. Pirate pays out 3300%EAR, it stands to reason his rate would be a higher or he isn't making any money. There aren't a whole lot of safe ways to make that kind of return. Granted I don't know much about his operation as I have very little exposure to his operation, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if my PPT bonds became junk because Pirate got shot or ended up in jail.
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May 17, 2012, 02:47:19 PM
 #185

bitcoins are not illegal in the usa so i highly doubt he will get jailed (or shot). however if btc becomes illegal i would think about taking most my btc from pirates bank.

obama wont shoot pirate just to hurt palin, that is just silly.
Bitcoins aren't illegal, but if this isn't a ponzi, it most certainly involves something illegal - most likely the drug trade.

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May 17, 2012, 04:32:26 PM
 #186

bitcoins are not illegal in the usa

That not entirely true. It all depends on the way the law is interpreted (especially when looking at anti-money laundering laws). Its a grey area at the moment.

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May 17, 2012, 10:52:58 PM
 #187

As far as the list, reeses nailed it. Neutral on the topic of this thread, yes.

It's a waste of time and energy to me, it's rude, it has no public basis - other than FUD. For the record, I apply this same judgement and non-speculation on things that I'm ignorant of to my everyday life. It's fun to speculate, but once you say it publicly, if you can't prove it, your motive(s) are questionable at best.

So like, if I thought the mayor was stealing shit from city hall, I wouldn't call the newspapers until I had proof.

What if it takes more than one person working together and comparing notes to be able to get proof? Wouldn't it make sense to discuss this in an open forum? It's not like anyone is calling the newspapers or anything. Just discussing.
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May 17, 2012, 11:19:03 PM
 #188

Good point, but then the thread title should be renamed to Is BS&T a Ponzi?

PatrickHarnett
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May 18, 2012, 02:06:58 AM
 #189

To be a bit more precise about my position, I don't think it's a Ponzi because it doesn't fit the pattern of a Ponzi very well -- at least, not yet. However, I cannot imagine anything legitimate that it could possibly be.

Update: Also, I can't imagine it being wise to invest in something when you have absolutely no basis on which to estimate the level of risk involved.

Mega lol - tell that to JP Morgan.  $2B (or maybe three billion- they are not sure yet) They don't know how to estimate risk either.
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May 18, 2012, 03:47:53 AM
 #190

To be a bit more precise about my position, I don't think it's a Ponzi because it doesn't fit the pattern of a Ponzi very well -- at least, not yet. However, I cannot imagine anything legitimate that it could possibly be.

Update: Also, I can't imagine it being wise to invest in something when you have absolutely no basis on which to estimate the level of risk involved.

Mega lol - tell that to JP Morgan.  $2B (or maybe three billion- they are not sure yet) They don't know how to estimate risk either.
Exactly. If you can't estimate risk, don't invest.

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May 18, 2012, 05:06:43 AM
 #191

It's come to a point now that BS&T has been running for so long now that if it is a ponzi (which I don't think it is) and he is planning on running away with the funds, I'd honestly have to give him credit for being able to put together such a long lasting and elaborate scheme.  Don't get me wrong, I'd still want my money back, but I'd have to say that he had me fooled pretty well if it was a ponzi.
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May 18, 2012, 06:20:56 AM
 #192

It's come to a point now that BS&T has been running for so long now that if it is a ponzi (which I don't think it is) and he is planning on running away with the funds, I'd honestly have to give him credit for being able to put together such a long lasting and elaborate scheme.  Don't get me wrong, I'd still want my money back, but I'd have to say that he had me fooled pretty well if it was a ponzi.
The point you're trying to make is that... if he's a scammer, then he's a really good scammer?

Gee, thanks splatster!
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May 18, 2012, 06:50:43 AM
 #193

It's come to a point now that BS&T has been running for so long now that if it is a ponzi (which I don't think it is) and he is planning on running away with the funds, I'd honestly have to give him credit for being able to put together such a long lasting and elaborate scheme.  Don't get me wrong, I'd still want my money back, but I'd have to say that he had me fooled pretty well if it was a ponzi.

It hasn't really existed that long. Most Ponzi schemes last at least a few months. Genius Funds lasted more than three years.

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May 21, 2012, 11:47:17 PM
 #194

It's come to a point now that BS&T has been running for so long now that if it is a ponzi (which I don't think it is) and he is planning on running away with the funds, I'd honestly have to give him credit for being able to put together such a long lasting and elaborate scheme.  Don't get me wrong, I'd still want my money back, but I'd have to say that he had me fooled pretty well if it was a ponzi.

It hasn't really existed that long. Most Ponzi schemes last at least a few months. Genius Funds lasted more than three years.
It's come to a point now that BS&T has been running for so long now that if it is a ponzi (which I don't think it is) and he is planning on running away with the funds, I'd honestly have to give him credit for being able to put together such a long lasting and elaborate scheme.  Don't get me wrong, I'd still want my money back, but I'd have to say that he had me fooled pretty well if it was a ponzi.
The point you're trying to make is that... if he's a scammer, then he's a really good scammer?

Gee, thanks splatster!

What I'm saying is that the amount of effort he'd have to put in to be running a ponzi like this would be insane.  Ever for the short period he's been running BS&T, it'd be too much for most to be running a ponzi.
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May 22, 2012, 12:13:14 AM
 #195

What I'm saying is that the amount of effort he'd have to put in to be running a ponzi like this would be insane.  Ever for the short period he's been running BS&T, it'd be too much for most to be running a ponzi.
The only alternatives to a Ponzi are a legitimate business or some other illegitimate business. Of those three possibilities, a Ponzi probably takes the least effort and provides him the highest potential reward. I would love to hear what you think would be an alternative explanation to a Ponzi scheme that takes less effort.

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PatrickHarnett
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May 22, 2012, 12:28:53 AM
 #196

What I'm saying is that the amount of effort he'd have to put in to be running a ponzi like this would be insane.  Ever for the short period he's been running BS&T, it'd be too much for most to be running a ponzi.
The only alternatives to a Ponzi are a legitimate business or some other illegitimate business. Of those three possibilities, a Ponzi probably takes the least effort and provides him the highest potential reward. I would love to hear what you think would be an alternative explanation to a Ponzi scheme that takes less effort.

I can think of several, and it just takes a bit of effort for the book-keeping.  But I'm not going to disclose what I'm thinking of or doing, because that's not how the world works.  You want to get rich, use your resources effectively, and don't give them away.

Edit, while sitting and thinking of some variations, there are systems that might not work in all jurisdictions, and some places will have better results than others.
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May 22, 2012, 02:43:26 AM
 #197

What I'm saying is that the amount of effort he'd have to put in to be running a ponzi like this would be insane.  Ever for the short period he's been running BS&T, it'd be too much for most to be running a ponzi.
The only alternatives to a Ponzi are a legitimate business or some other illegitimate business. Of those three possibilities, a Ponzi probably takes the least effort and provides him the highest potential reward. I would love to hear what you think would be an alternative explanation to a Ponzi scheme that takes less effort.

I can think of several, and it just takes a bit of effort for the book-keeping.  But I'm not going to disclose what I'm thinking of or doing, because that's not how the world works.  You want to get rich, use your resources effectively, and don't give them away.

Edit, while sitting and thinking of some variations, there are systems that might not work in all jurisdictions, and some places will have better results than others.
I'm sorry, I can't just take your word for it. It's entirely possible that I can shoot every suggestion you make full of holes. Or it's possible some of your suggestions are solid. But "I have secret knowledge that shows you're wrong" is basically worthless. I know of no explanation simpler than a Ponzi scheme. Essentially, a Ponzi is the least effort because all you have to do is find investors and keep them happy to run a Ponzi. Every other scheme requires at least that, plus you actually have to make money. (With a Ponzi, all you do is take loss. You never have to make anything.)

I honestly can't conceive of anything simpler than a Ponzi scheme.

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May 22, 2012, 02:48:42 AM
 #198


I honestly can't conceive of anything simpler than a Ponzi scheme.


So therefore, we are limited by your myopia?

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May 22, 2012, 03:09:33 AM
 #199

I vote that it is, for reasons I promise not to go into. It is also making me money.
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May 22, 2012, 03:56:31 AM
 #200


I honestly can't conceive of anything simpler than a Ponzi scheme.


So therefore, we are limited by your myopia?

That was the point I was trying to make in a couple of places, but that sums it up nice and bluntly.

And if you want an example of how to make money pushing it around in circles, why don't you try shifting money back and forward between two (or more) trading companies that wish to save on the transfer fees that the banks charge for currency exchange.  I've done that and benefited by several hundred dollars (probably less than a grand) just for personal use.  If I was still running cross border businesses, it would be worth a lot more to me.

Another idea that works is to pick on jurisdictions where purchase power parity is out of alignment and move currency/goods to take advantage of the arbitrage.
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