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Author Topic: Bitcoin Savings and Trust is probably a Ponzi Scheme: A Petition  (Read 24238 times)
JoelKatz
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May 09, 2012, 09:31:31 AM
 #141

Anyway, more thinking out loud; if this is not a ponzi sensu stricto, and pirate is actually earning as many or more bitcoins as he is paying out, its more than likely someone else is losing out, bitcoin being a zero sum game. So I keep wondering, who is losing? I dont see an obvious answer, but perhaps we are all losing if Pirate manages to manipulate either mining difficulty or bitcoin exchange rates somehow. The former would almost certainly be related to gpumax, though I fail to connect the dots. The latter could be related to bitcoinica, although once again, someone smarter than me will have to connect the dots.
I don't think there has to be anybody on the losing end. Say someone has a unique opportunity to turn $100 into $150 (say by buying something wholesale and selling it retail). So they borrow some Bitcoins, sell them for $100, turn the $100 into $150, buy $110 in Bitcoins, give those Bitcoins to the lender and pocket $40 in profit. Who is the loser here?

I am an employee of Ripple.
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JoelKatz
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May 09, 2012, 09:32:29 AM
 #142

Just thinking about it if he is running the MMM ponzi scheme. If he does he would earn a 20% profit even when paying out 20%. In 5 months all the money someone else invested would be his profit. So if he gets the money out every month and the MMM ponzi scheme collapsed. He will be be able to payout a lot of ppl if he wanted to. All the money who is in longer then 5 months is full profit for him.
You're forgetting that he has to get the "profits" he pays out from somewhere.

There is no "profit" in a Ponzi scheme. Deposits are neutral -- someone gives you $100, you owe them $100. Payouts are neutral -- you pay out $100 to someone, you owe them $100 less. And, of course, accumulated interest is pure loss. If someone deposits $100 and I now owe them $105, that's a $5 loss. Ponzi schemes only accumulate losses. The difference between how much money they hold and how much they owe can only grow, and it grows with every passing day.

I am an employee of Ripple.
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May 09, 2012, 09:53:58 AM
 #143

I don't think there has to be anybody on the losing end. Say someone has a unique opportunity to turn $100 into $150 (say by buying something wholesale and selling it retail). So they borrow some Bitcoins, sell them for $100, turn the $100 into $150, buy $110 in Bitcoins, give those Bitcoins to the lender and pocket $40 in profit. Who is the loser here?

The borrower lost $10 of his profits on the bitcoin deal, and you could argue whoever bought or sold the wholesale something lost $50. At least they missed a $50 opportunity. This becomes semantics quickly because you may just as well say reselling those products created $50 of value to the customers, but the question regarding Pirate then remains roughly the same.

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May 09, 2012, 10:06:48 AM
 #144

Just thinking about it if he is running the MMM ponzi scheme. If he does he would earn a 20% profit even when paying out 20%. In 5 months all the money someone else invested would be his profit. So if he gets the money out every month and the MMM ponzi scheme collapsed. He will be be able to payout a lot of ppl if he wanted to. All the money who is in longer then 5 months is full profit for him.
You're forgetting that he has to get the "profits" he pays out from somewhere.

Currently MMM does pay out, if you request it. The only question is - how long? It might also be that pirate is "investing" in a different ponzi scheme, but to me personally either money laundering (pay GPUMAX customers your dirty silkroad coins and get freshly mined anonymous ones) and/or ponzi investment makes the most sense.
The MMM scheme is based on "currency conversion" after all, with some russian funny money that is worth more and more USDs per month. This could be called "market arbitrage" or "day trading" in a broad sense and would be consistent with pirate's wordings (he might even sell the one or the other BTC to a friend at a price above MtGox, who knows?) about his operations so far.

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May 09, 2012, 10:35:50 AM
 #145

I don't think there has to be anybody on the losing end. Say someone has a unique opportunity to turn $100 into $150 (say by buying something wholesale and selling it retail). So they borrow some Bitcoins, sell them for $100, turn the $100 into $150, buy $110 in Bitcoins, give those Bitcoins to the lender and pocket $40 in profit. Who is the loser here?

The borrower lost $10 of his profits on the bitcoin deal, and you could argue whoever bought or sold the wholesale something lost $50. At least they missed a $50 opportunity. This becomes semantics quickly because you may just as well say reselling those products created $50 of value to the customers, but the question regarding Pirate then remains roughly the same.
The deal wouldn't have happened if he hadn't borrowed, since he wouldn't have had the funds to purchase the widget. Without borrowing he would have stayed at 0, with borrowing he gained $40. He profited $40 from the borrowing.

Same for the retail customers - without the borrowing they wouldn't have a widget, with the borrowing they have a widget, they paid $150 but it's worth more than that to them.

Again, the whole concept of commerce relies on the possibility of two parties to enter a mutually beneficial agreement where none of them loses. In our example both the lending and the retail sale are such agreements.

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May 10, 2012, 06:41:02 AM
 #146

Quote
Matthew, I have to say that for a 4,000+ Post Member of this forum, I find it difficult to believe that you have never attempted to find out who Pirate actually is....?

All of his personal information is quite readily available to anyone willing to do the legwork if not satisfied with the basics.

I just spent two hours searching the internet trying to figure out his identity.    The best thing I came up with is an IP address from an old bitcoin-otc chat log, and a picture which I don't know if it is real (do a google img search if you want to see it).  People say it is easy to find out his identity, but don't share or tell us how.  What is his identity?








Don't day trade.
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May 10, 2012, 10:19:44 AM
 #147

I don't think there has to be anybody on the losing end. Say someone has a unique opportunity to turn $100 into $150 (say by buying something wholesale and selling it retail). So they borrow some Bitcoins, sell them for $100, turn the $100 into $150, buy $110 in Bitcoins, give those Bitcoins to the lender and pocket $40 in profit. Who is the loser here?

The borrower lost $10 of his profits on the bitcoin deal, and you could argue whoever bought or sold the wholesale something lost $50. At least they missed a $50 opportunity. This becomes semantics quickly because you may just as well say reselling those products created $50 of value to the customers, but the question regarding Pirate then remains roughly the same.
The deal wouldn't have happened if he hadn't borrowed, since he wouldn't have had the funds to purchase the widget. Without borrowing he would have stayed at 0, with borrowing he gained $40. He profited $40 from the borrowing.

Same for the retail customers - without the borrowing they wouldn't have a widget, with the borrowing they have a widget, they paid $150 but it's worth more than that to them.

Again, the whole concept of commerce relies on the possibility of two parties to enter a mutually beneficial agreement where none of them loses. In our example both the lending and the retail sale are such agreements.

What if the borrowed/invested BTC were actually the widgets in question ?

Profit Breakdown of XY:
x% - buy more BTC to replace member-invested BTC & pay interest.
y% - LIVE OFF THE REST OF THE PROFITS LIKE A NORMAL PERSON WOULD DO ASSUMING BITCOIN IS THEIR PRIMARY SOURCE OF INCOME OR JOB.

Fuck, is it REALLY that difficult for everyone to understand ?

PEOPLE HAVE TO EAT....and NONE of you so-called GENIUSES EVER MENTIONED OR CONSIDERED THAT.....HENCE KEEPING 3RD PARTY BTC 'INVESTED'.

Ponzi, Sky is falling, tin-foil hats....FUCK ME.
Get a life.


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May 10, 2012, 11:26:13 AM
 #148

It seems all the detractors simply forget that Pirate is the 8th most rated seller at Bitcoin-OTC lol

Morons...

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May 10, 2012, 11:38:48 AM
 #149

The previous two posts must be the most stupid and unreflected ones I have read in this whole thread.

bitlane: use all of his huge profits solely to maintain an incredibly expensive lifestyle? Get serious.
psy: An appeal to authority as actual reasoning? So if I have 29381093 ratings, It is impossible for me to scam anyone? Cool story bro.

Congrats, you both have earned yourself the additional ignore. Oh, and for the record, I am betting with my money that he does not run a Ponzi, so this is not even coming from a detractor as you two will surely accuse me of.

edit: I apologize, I just don’t like the hostile tone you guys employ. I think we could and should remain civil here.

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Raoul Duke
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May 10, 2012, 11:50:35 AM
 #150

Who said anything about scamming or not scamming? It was only a pointer for the morons who try to guess what does Pirate do with the bitcoins to maybe put their brains to work and think that he may just be selling them...
No need to guess when it's on plain sight Wink

So, if you are not a detractor you must be a moron. Those were the only 2 types I referenced in my post, and if it got to your nerves you belong to one of those 2 types of persons for sure.

Thanks for the Ignore.

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May 10, 2012, 02:41:17 PM
 #151

I just spent two hours searching the internet trying to figure out his identity.    The best thing I came up with is an IP address from an old bitcoin-otc chat log, and a picture which I don't know if it is real (do a google img search if you want to see it).  People say it is easy to find out his identity, but don't share or tell us how.  What is his identity?

His info listed on his domain registration has been confirmed to be correct.

THIS SPOT FOR RENT* | GPG ID: 4880D85C | 1% Escrow | 8% IPO/ICO Escrow services Temporarily Closed | Bitcointalk is the ONLY place where I use this name (No Skype/IRC/YIM/AIM/etc) | 13CsmTqGNwvFXb7tD9yFvJcEYCDTB8wQTS | Beware of these SCAM sites! | *Sponsored Link
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May 10, 2012, 02:43:29 PM
 #152

bitlane: use all of his huge profits solely to maintain an incredibly expensive lifestyle? Get serious.

I heard that he made enough money to buy Miami... but he pissed it away so fast.

This was never meant to last.

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May 10, 2012, 03:03:19 PM
 #153


Like the username says, it's not you lol

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May 10, 2012, 04:17:12 PM
 #154

I just spent two hours searching the internet trying to figure out his identity.    The best thing I came up with is an IP address from an old bitcoin-otc chat log, and a picture which I don't know if it is real (do a google img search if you want to see it).  People say it is easy to find out his identity, but don't share or tell us how.  What is his identity?

His info listed on his domain registration has been confirmed to be correct.
It took you 2 hours to type "whois gpumax.com" ?

I'm not using whois.  But "Don Shrents" is a sort of anagram (I think that's the word anyway) for his actual name.  The point is, it's not like he's making a huge effort to hide his identity or anything.

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May 10, 2012, 04:44:08 PM
 #155

I just spent two hours searching the internet trying to figure out his identity.    The best thing I came up with is an IP address from an old bitcoin-otc chat log, and a picture which I don't know if it is real (do a google img search if you want to see it).  People say it is easy to find out his identity, but don't share or tell us how.  What is his identity?

His info listed on his domain registration has been confirmed to be correct.
It took you 2 hours to type "whois gpumax.com" ?

I'm not using whois.  But "Don Shrents" is a sort of anagram (I think that's the word anyway) for his actual name.  The point is, it's not like he's making a huge effort to hide his identity or anything.

Takes about 5 mins to get his real name. It isn't Don Shrents, which does looks like an anagram.
 
edit:

wtf is this though. you need to know the name to look up

http://www.co.midland.tx.us/da/hotcheckwarrants/list/?lname=sz
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May 10, 2012, 04:57:37 PM
 #156

Takes about 5 mins to get his real name. It isn't Don Shrents, which does looks like an anagram.
 
edit:

wtf is this though. you need to know the name to look up

http://www.co.midland.tx.us/da/hotcheckwarrants/list/?lname=sz

What does O/20 U/500 mean?

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May 10, 2012, 04:58:20 PM
 #157

yep. Over $20 but under $500
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May 10, 2012, 05:11:25 PM
 #158

I'm not using whois.  But "Don Shrents" is a sort of anagram (I think that's the word anyway) for his actual name.  The point is, it's not like he's making a huge effort to hide his identity or anything.

His name is not an anagram of Don Shrents

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May 10, 2012, 05:13:25 PM
 #159

Takes about 5 mins to get his real name. It isn't Don Shrents, which does looks like an anagram.
 
edit:

wtf is this though. you need to know the name to look up

http://www.co.midland.tx.us/da/hotcheckwarrants/list/?lname=sz

What does O/20 U/500 mean?

Looks like "over 20 under 500 [dollars]"

(BFL)^2 < 0
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May 10, 2012, 05:30:29 PM
 #160

Well, I'm sure we've all made mistakes in the past.  I'm the first one to call someone out for being a scammer (check the Lending section if you don't believe me lol), but Pirateat40 seems to be legit IMHO.

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