MtGox Collapsing (and taking bitcoin down with them?)

[shad0wbitz]

I am not trying to spread fudge here or troll in any shape way or form. I am simply really concerned with the states of affairs at MtGox, and the inability of the company to be honest with their customers.

Clearly MtGox is having some very serious liquidity issues. Most likely this stems from all the funds they have gotten frozen around the world (read: hundreds of thousands at Technocash alone, their bank in Hong Kong frozen, the French bank, etc).

The signs are all out there for you to see and make your own conclusions.

1) Dwolla withdrawals are being delayed for weeks:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=79902.20

2) Wire transfers take an avergage of three or four weeks. MtGox is finding ways to stall wires citing AML reasons left and right. Wires seem to get magically processed as soon as the recipient posts on this forum. Goat had some ficticious situation manufactured in order to delay a rather big wire:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=79043.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=78596.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=77213.0

3) Jeremy at spendcoins had to suspend wires and ampex withdrawals due to "overwhelming demand" since he has to pick the slack of MtGox.

4) I believe Coinabul delays in shipping are related to the fact that they are not getting paid timely by MtGox.

5) Bitcoinica is having issues processing wires, particularly large ones due to the fact that MtGox owes them a "significant amount" as per their own words.

6) Here is the icing on the cake though: OkPay uses MtGox to cash out bitcoins deposited by users into their system. As of a few days ago, they temporarily suspended bitcoin deposits, which are now in limbo:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=77065.0

I think it is time for MtGox to come forward, and be clear and transparent about their financial status, and stop blaming "US tax day" or the "Golden Shower week" when clearly there is a new excuse each and every week.

My main concern is that if MtGox collapses, the price of bitcoin will collapse with them.

I know I am going to get attacked for this post, and that is fine. Just give it time. Those who do not want to see, will not.

Shad0w

[1715201454]

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[rjk]

"Golden Shower week"

lol

[bitlane]

2) Wire transfers take an avergage of three or four weeks. MtGox is finding ways to stall wires citing AML reasons left and right. Wires seem to get magically processed as soon as the recipient posts on this forum. Goat had some ficticious situation manufactured in order to delay a rather big wire:

Do the math.
Do you have any idea how much Interest they are able to make from your money if they delay a wire transfer ?
It's not like MtGox deal in small amounts of fiat.

Users MUST demand more from them.

Competition for them is also a MUST, or they will simply continue to keep the Bitcoin Community in their back pocket.

Operating virtually unopposed is a recipe for clusterfuckery at best and YOU SUFFER, not them.

[bitlane]

I should also add.....

There are people crying on this forum almost DAILY in regards to 'Boycott DeepBit....stop the chance of a 51% attack....blah...cry...whine...'

How about BOYCOTT MT.GOX - SAY NO TO A 99% MONOPOLY AND SHIT SERVICE.

It's time for people to see the BIG picture.

[MarketNeutral]

I wholeheartedly agree that competition is a must, which is why I rarely use MtGox.

If possible, I try not to use any exchanges.

But in all fairness, I recently wired some money to MtGox and funds appeared in my account within a few hours. Much faster than usual.

On the other hand, I wouldn't be surprised if Gox did a paypal-style interest float.

[ccliu]

I can fill coinabuls place to a degree, I ship next day as long as I have stock on hand

[Andrew Bitcoiner]

This could be but the Japan banking holiday for a week certainly was an issue.

[MagicalTux]

We are working on improving the situation with liquidity, and have currently some issues because of the volume of illegal activity that took place in the past year.

Things are moving forward and I expect to see things back to normal by June.

[JusticeForYou]

While at first your Thread title seemed like it was going to be more FUD, your main content seemed reasoned and thought out.

There is a bottleneck occurring. And a weakness is coming to light.

Open Source Exchange ?  Perhaps will help. But personally I think to use it as originally intended. P2P, B2B, B2C, etc... and everyone mines easily if one chooses to do so.

Oh, don't forget the #bitcoin-otc and the WoT as parallel methods of funding.

btcpak.com for U.S. could relieve some of the bottle neck.


Power tends to group around a few for many reasons usually for control and/or financial reasons. This is normal but if you make the bar for entry very easy for everyone by handing out freebies (Exchange Software for the masses) then the good will push out the bad.

Edit: MT has/and is serving a vital role under extreme pressure from all sides. So, my comment was not intended to disparage the exchange.

[shad0wbitz]

2) Wire transfers take an avergage of three or four weeks. MtGox is finding ways to stall wires citing AML reasons left and right. Wires seem to get magically processed as soon as the recipient posts on this forum. Goat had some ficticious situation manufactured in order to delay a rather big wire:

Do the math.
Do you have any idea how much Interest they are able to make from your money if they delay a wire transfer ?
It's not like MtGox deal in small amounts of fiat.

Users MUST demand more from them.

Competition for them is also a MUST, or they will simply continue to keep the Bitcoin Community in their back pocket.

Operating virtually unopposed is a recipe for clusterfuckery at best and YOU SUFFER, not them.

+1

[Tomatocage]

WAT? MtGox collapse and forces people to use Bitcoin as an actual currency?!?  PERISH THE THOUGHT!

[buryfarmer]

MTGOX MUST ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS STRAIGHT.

DO YOU EVER ISSUE MORE MTGOX BTC REDEEMABLE CODE THAN YOU HAVE ACTUAL BITCOINS?

AND

DO YOU EVER ISSUE MORE MTGOX USD REDEEMABLE CODE THAN YOU HAVE ACTUAL USD?

[JusticeForYou]

MTGOX MUST ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS STRAIGHT.

DO YOU EVER ISSUE MORE MTGOX BTC REDEEMABLE CODE THAN YOU HAVE ACTUAL BITCOINS?

AND

DO YOU EVER ISSUE MORE MTGOX USD REDEEMABLE CODE THAN YOU HAVE ACTUAL USD?

What's wrong with a little reserve banking? Everyone is doing it.


AND STOP YELLING!!!!

[SgtSpike]

I share the OP's concerns.  All of my dwolla withdrawals have been nearly instantaneous in the past (I even posted on that thread that my last withdrawal had gone through quickly), but two recent withdrawals have taken 6 days (just received) and 3 days (so far) to get the funds in my dwolla account, respectively.

I'm going to take my business to Intersango until they get this figured out.  It makes me too nervous...

[casascius]

My main concern is that if MtGox collapses, the price of bitcoin will collapse with them.

Are BTC withdrawals delayed?  If the smartest course of action is to take all your Gox money and run with BTC while you can, because you know you can get your hands on it in the shortest possible time, we could see the price of Bitcoin take an artificially induced climb.

P.S. Anyone got $10k in MtGoxUSD codes they want to sell at a discount and receive a bankwire today for?

[DeathAndTaxes]

Crap wish I had done my research.

After my last Dwolla transfer took 7 days I decided to pay more for an international wire.  I can't believe they are delayed weeks and MtGox doesn't even have the decently to put something on the transfer page.

"Attention users: wires are delayed 14-21 days, Dwolla transfers are delayed 5-7 days".  How hard would that be?

[JusticeForYou]

Hey,

Before the Bank Run starts, someone let me know.

Casascius, nice service.

Edit: How much of a discount?

[SgtSpike]

Lol, it seems we need to make a thread titled ["WAIT LIST"] Mt. Gox Funds Sent Date / Received Date. 

[doldgigger]

I am not trying to spread fudge here or troll in any shape way or form. I am simply really concerned with the states of affairs at MtGox, and the inability of the company to be honest with their customers.

Clearly MtGox is having some very serious liquidity issues. Most likely this stems from all the funds they have gotten frozen around the world (read: hundreds of thousands at Technocash alone, their bank in Hong Kong frozen, the French bank, etc).

Do you also have references for these bank account freezing issues?

Of course it's sad that all these excuses were necessary before, but I think it's an important first step to re-establish a good reputation that they admit the liquidity issues now.

At this point, I think it will important to also approach a generally more customer-centric way of doing business if they wish to stay on the market. Because, if they keep their policy of making the customer the last one to inform about what's going on, we will not know how the liquidity issues were solved when they are. Did it suffice to get the accounts unfrozen? Did they also sell their sports cars? Or is the money coming from being a real-time data warehouse for the DEA and other dubious federal data consumers?

I think it is time for MtGox to come forward, and be clear and transparent about their financial status, and stop blaming "US tax day" or the "Golden Shower week" when clearly there is a new excuse each and every week.

My main concern is that if MtGox collapses, the price of bitcoin will collapse with them.

As written above, I think transparency is needed for more than the financial status. Otherwise, the reputation can hardly be restored. Customers need to see that their concerns are now priority issues for MtGox. For example, how serious is a company about allowing pseudonymous use of their service when they state that they'll require identifying documents when someone uses Tor?? And why doesn't their data privacy statement make it clear that customer data will only be disclosed to third parties upon absolute legal necessity?

I hope they'll get their act together and learn from the current crisis. All the experience gathered so far should not be lost after all.

But even if not: It's not the exchanges which dictate the exchange rates. It's the supply and the demand. If the price really changes when taking MtGox out of the equation, it will most likely be due to differences in the deposit and withdrawal methods available (which have an effect on the currency supply...). Should this hurt someone, some exchange will fill the gap...

[Raoul Duke]

Just one question: Why would Bitcoin go down with MtGox?

I'm into Bitcoin for more than 1 year and besides opening an account in MtGox I never really used them for anything else... And I bet a lot more people are like me and don't use exchanges.

[Raoul Duke]

Just one question: Why would Bitcoin go down with MtGox?

I'm into Bitcoin for more than 1 year and besides opening an account in MtGox I never really used them for anything else... And I bet a lot more people are like me and don't use exchanges.

I don't think it would go down the mtgox. I think it would hurt it. Bitcoin, due to its decentralization, could not be taken down by that. It just might hurt popularity.

I think it's exactly the opposite: Bitcoin is being damaged by the existence of MtGox and the centralization on them.
I think if MtGox went down Bitcoin would have more to gain than to lose.

[check_status]

I think it's exactly the opposite: Bitcoin is being damaged by the existence of MtGox and the centralization on them.
I think if MtGox went down Bitcoin would have more to gain than to lose.

+1
Alpha Exchange to the rescue! Restoring decentralization to trading.

[check_status]

Just before 00:00 GMT there was a volume of 220,000 dropping BTC to $4.80. It's back to around $5 now but someone is certainly making a lot of moves.
How do you set the computer to make loud annoying buzzing alarm when the wiggle like that? I don't want to miss the action.

[dustintrammell]

My main concern is that if MtGox collapses, the price of bitcoin will collapse with them.

People need to diversify and trade on other exchanges in addition to Mt. Gox.

[dustintrammell]

I share the OP's concerns.  All of my dwolla withdrawals have been nearly instantaneous in the past (I even posted on that thread that my last withdrawal had gone through quickly), but two recent withdrawals have taken 6 days (just received) and 3 days (so far) to get the funds in my dwolla account, respectively.

I'm going to take my business to Intersango until they get this figured out.  It makes me too nervous...

I have had the same experience, however as soon as I open a support ticket about the missing transfer they get my transfers resolved.

[dustintrammell]

I bet a lot more people are like me and don't use exchanges.

Or they're like me and use ALL the exchanges (:

[SgtSpike]

Just one question: Why would Bitcoin go down with MtGox?

I'm into Bitcoin for more than 1 year and besides opening an account in MtGox I never really used them for anything else... And I bet a lot more people are like me and don't use exchanges.

I don't think it would go down the mtgox. I think it would hurt it. Bitcoin, due to its decentralization, could not be taken down by that. It just might hurt popularity.

I think it's exactly the opposite: Bitcoin is being damaged by the existence of MtGox and the centralization on them.
I think if MtGox went down Bitcoin would have more to gain than to lose.

I don't think centralization is actively hurting Bitcoin.  It could hurt Bitcoin significantly if something happens to Mt. Gox, but I don't see it as hurting Bitcoin NOW.

[alatus]

Let's see what it brings...

https://www.facebook.com/MtGox/posts/294260660658348

[realnowhereman]

A Mt.Gox shutdown would undoubtedly hurt bitcoin's price.  Part of the valuation of bitcoin includes the availability of a large exchange for cashing in and out.

However, bitcoin wouldn't die if Mt.Gox went.  There are other exchanges, and once they took on the liquidity that Mt.Gox represents the price would recover (modulo reputational losses for bitcoin services generally).

[Crypt_Current]

Just before 00:00 GMT there was a volume of 220,000 dropping BTC to $4.80. It's back to around $5 now but someone is certainly making a lot of moves.
How do you set the computer to make loud annoying buzzing alarm when the wiggle like that? I don't want to miss the action.

A few months ago, a user of this forum named Jesse had created a web app alarm that would sound a bull or bear sound upon crossing a price threshold.  I remember it being clever and useful; however, I don't know that it exists anymore...  I searched the board for a link, but to no avail.  Either I need more coffee or this forum's search sucks.

[casascius]

Funny enough, even if I wanted to sell my BTC to panic over this, I'm disinclined to do so, because if the concern is that MtGoxUSD aren't fully backed by USD, my BTC in the hand are more valuable than the MtGoxUSD I'd receive at MtGox.

[doldgigger]

A Mt.Gox shutdown would undoubtedly hurt bitcoin's price.  Part of the valuation of bitcoin includes the availability of a large exchange for cashing in and out.

However, bitcoin wouldn't die if Mt.Gox went.  There are other exchanges, and once they took on the liquidity that Mt.Gox represents the price would recover (modulo reputational losses for bitcoin services generally).

MtGox did not build a large exchange. It became a large exchange because the users were to lazy to diversify. When it goes away, the users will move to other exchanges, making these larger. So this effect will only lead to small fluctuations, if at all.

You're right about the reputation thing, however. But on the long run, we will all be grateful when this happens. It's always dangerous when a single company can jeopardize the reputation of bitcoin as a whole through their own decisions. When people start to diversify, this effect will have a much lower impact in the future (if another exchange stumbles).

[the joint]

Just before 00:00 GMT there was a volume of 220,000 dropping BTC to $4.80. It's back to around $5 now but someone is certainly making a lot of moves.
How do you set the computer to make loud annoying buzzing alarm when the wiggle like that? I don't want to miss the action.

A few months ago, a user of this forum named Jesse had created a web app alarm that would sound a bull or bear sound upon crossing a price threshold.  I remember it being clever and useful; however, I don't know that it exists anymore...  I searched the board for a link, but to no avail.  Either I need more coffee or this forum's search sucks.

I've been thinking about this all week!  That thing was hilarious (and useful).

If anybody has any info on what happened to this, I'd love to know.

[Qoheleth]

Just before 00:00 GMT there was a volume of 220,000 dropping BTC to $4.80. It's back to around $5 now but someone is certainly making a lot of moves.
How do you set the computer to make loud annoying buzzing alarm when the wiggle like that? I don't want to miss the action.

A few months ago, a user of this forum named Jesse had created a web app alarm that would sound a bull or bear sound upon crossing a price threshold.  I remember it being clever and useful; however, I don't know that it exists anymore...  I searched the board for a link, but to no avail.  Either I need more coffee or this forum's search sucks.

Is this the app?

[the joint]

Just before 00:00 GMT there was a volume of 220,000 dropping BTC to $4.80. It's back to around $5 now but someone is certainly making a lot of moves.
How do you set the computer to make loud annoying buzzing alarm when the wiggle like that? I don't want to miss the action.

A few months ago, a user of this forum named Jesse had created a web app alarm that would sound a bull or bear sound upon crossing a price threshold.  I remember it being clever and useful; however, I don't know that it exists anymore...  I searched the board for a link, but to no avail.  Either I need more coffee or this forum's search sucks.

Is this the app?

Nice!!!

[JoelKatz]

MTGOX MUST ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS STRAIGHT.

DO YOU EVER ISSUE MORE MTGOX BTC REDEEMABLE CODE THAN YOU HAVE ACTUAL BITCOINS?

AND

DO YOU EVER ISSUE MORE MTGOX USD REDEEMABLE CODE THAN YOU HAVE ACTUAL USD?

I used to debate Libertarian nut cases who think that all fractional reserve banking is fraud. My usual response is to ask them if they really think there actually exists anyone who thinks that when you deposit money in a bank, they put your money in the safe so that you can withdraw it when you want to. I guess I'll have to find a new argument, because it now appears there is at least one such person.

[Btc4Domains]

People need to diversify and trade on other exchanges in addition to Mt. Gox.

There's often better prices on other exchanges too.

[tarrant_01]

The problem is easily getting money to other exchanges. It's such a PITA and then all of the fees to do so.

[Tuxavant]

This post is for any n00b that sees any discouraging news about MTGOX and contemplates a negative reaction...

I've used MTGOX for over a year now. I've had one single problem and it was MY FAULT for not clearly identifying my account with a deposit. I've purchased thousands of dollars of Bitcoin through them and not a single problem. On the 4th, a friday, I wired some more dollars and by sunday evening, I was funded and able to trade. No delays at all.

Pro-Tips: Don't be shady, submit your identification information, and comply with all the banking requirements on your last trip out of the system (just hold your middle finger high to the banking system as you transfer your Bitcoins to your personal wallet).

[cryptoanarchist]

Why people continue to use Gox is a mystery to me.  There are plenty of better exchanges.

[MarketNeutral]

Why people continue to use Gox is a mystery to me.  There are plenty of better exchanges.

I agree, but I'm curious which ones do you prefer?

[cryptoanarchist]

Why people continue to use Gox is a mystery to me.  There are plenty of better exchanges.

I agree, but I'm curious which ones do you prefer?

BTC-e is probably my fave right now, but I use CryptoXchange, bitStamp, BTCex, and all the rest too. Whoever has the right prices.

[Tuxavant]

I want to use CryptoXchange because of their local bank deposits and low fees, but waiting for the pages to load kills me with every click. That, and the interface is too busy and unintuitive.

[cryptoanarchist]

I want to use CryptoXchange because of their local bank deposits and low fees, but waiting for the pages to load kills me with every click. That, and the interface is too busy and unintuitive.

If you think Crypto's interface is a bitch, check out vircurex.com. They definitely have the most confusing site of them all, but I use them too!

[paraipan]

...

Pro-Tips: Don't be shady, submit your identification information, and comply with all the banking requirements on your last trip out of the system (just hold your middle finger high to the banking system as you transfer your Bitcoins to your personal wallet).

great tip dude, i already did the first part without protesting but missed middle finger one 

[JusticeForYou]

...

Pro-Tips: Don't be shady, submit your identification information, and comply with all the banking requirements on your last trip out of the system (just hold your middle finger high to the banking system as you transfer your Bitcoins to your personal wallet).

great tip dude, i already did the first part without protesting but missed middle finger one 

Well, of lately, it seems the only reason to provide identifying documents is to have them spread around the world from 'hacks'.

[Tuxavant]

Well, of lately, it seems the only reason to provide identifying documents is to have them spread around the world from 'hacks'.

To me, it doesn't matter. Any information about me listed in my passport or utility bill is almost public information anyway and distributed in any number of online systems that could be hacked anyway. The traditional banking system will protect/refund/replace any of my dollars that are fraudulently taken from any of my accounts - there is insurance for that kind of thing.

Its a small risk in order to get out from under that shitty, outdated, corrupt, and immoral system.

[JusticeForYou]

Well, of lately, it seems the only reason to provide identifying documents is to have them spread around the world from 'hacks'.

To me, it doesn't matter. Any information about me listed in my passport or utility bill is almost public information anyway and distributed in any number of online systems that could be hacked anyway. The traditional banking system will protect/refund/replace any of my dollars that are fraudulently taken from any of my accounts - there is insurance for that kind of thing.

Its a small risk in order to get out from under that shitty, outdated, corrupt, and immoral system.

Really?

I can see your point to some extent but you do expect a level of privacy.

Lets test it. If it doesn't really matter since everyone can get it anyway, post a picture of your Passport.

Once the information breaks your bubble space, people realize that it actually does matter but they have been ignoring it.

[the joint]

There are several reasons why I do not use Gox:

1)  Absolutely god-fucking-awful customer service.  They (I assume) deleted my old account, which still had a few cents in it, without ever informing me or warning me in any way.

Actually, #1 is all I need.  No reason to list any more. 

[dooglus]

MTGOX MUST ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS STRAIGHT.

DO YOU EVER ISSUE MORE MTGOX BTC REDEEMABLE CODE THAN YOU HAVE ACTUAL BITCOINS?

AND

DO YOU EVER ISSUE MORE MTGOX USD REDEEMABLE CODE THAN YOU HAVE ACTUAL USD?

I used to debate Libertarian nut cases who think that all fractional reserve banking is fraud. My usual response is to ask them if they really think there actually exists anyone who thinks that when you deposit money in a bank, they put your money in the safe so that you can withdraw it when you want to. I guess I'll have to find a new argument, because it now appears there is at least one such person.

Do MtGox issue loans?  If not, why would they ever issue more in redeemable codes than they have in reserve?  As far as I know, I can only withdraw codes up to my current balance.

I was under the impression that MtGox were holding everyone's balance somewhere safely.  Is that not the case?

[JoelKatz]

Do MtGox issue loans?

Not to my knowledge.

If not, why would they ever issue more in redeemable codes than they have in reserve?  As far as I know, I can only withdraw codes up to my current balance.

There are a variety of reasons, but those most common is to protect themselves from devaluating currencies.

I was under the impression that MtGox were holding everyone's balance somewhere safely.  Is that not the case?

No, you don't stuff money in a mattress unless you're an idiot. If, for example, dollars are losing value, MtGox should hold as little of their reserves in dollars as possible. There's no reason they have to hold your value in the same demomination as you are going to claim it, and that's usually a very foolish thing to do. If Mt. Gox did that, they'd have to charge you a storage fee or eat losses from inactive accounts.

Mt. Gox should hold sufficient value, in some form ,t cover client deposits. Butthey shouldn't hold reserves in any particular currency of store of value unless that particular currency or store of value makes sense for them.

[MarketNeutral]

Do MtGox issue loans?

Not to my knowledge.

If not, why would they ever issue more in redeemable codes than they have in reserve?  As far as I know, I can only withdraw codes up to my current balance.

There are a variety of reasons, but those most common is to protect themselves from devaluating currencies.

I was under the impression that MtGox were holding everyone's balance somewhere safely.  Is that not the case?

No, you don't stuff money in a mattress unless you're an idiot. If, for example, dollars are losing value, MtGox should hold as little of their reserves in dollars as possible. There's no reason they have to hold your value in the same demomination as you are going to claim it, and that's usually a very foolish thing to do. If Mt. Gox did that, they'd have to charge you a storage fee or eat losses from inactive accounts.

Mt. Gox should hold sufficient value, in some form ,t cover client deposits. Butthey shouldn't hold reserves in any particular currency of store of value unless that particular currency or store of value makes sense for them.

This is correct. And I hope this dispels the myth that MtGox simply holds clients' funds in a wallet.dat file.

I have no idea how MtGox hedges against currency risk, but it could be as simple as holding a portion of clients' funds in an interest-bearing money-market or deposit account denominated in yen or hong kong dollars.

Who knows, but it's not a simple A to B transaction.

[dooglus]

If, for example, dollars are losing value, MtGox should hold as little of their reserves in dollars as possible. There's no reason they have to hold your value in the same demomination as you are going to claim it, and that's usually a very foolish thing to do.

So you're saying they should gamble my deposit on the currency markets in the hope of making a profit?  That seems a little risky.  Is there not a chance that by converting my deposited dollars into yen that they could end up unable to pay me back when I try to withdraw?

There's no reason they have to hold your value in the same demomination as you are going to claim it, and that's usually a very foolish thing to do. If Mt. Gox did that, they'd have to charge you a storage fee or eat losses from inactive accounts.

I don't understand why they would have to charge a storage fee.  Where's the expense in holding dollars in a bank account?

[JusticeForYou]

More interestingly. Let see if it was Bitcoinica that was providing stability or was it something else? hmm... time should tell in relatively short order.

Actully on MT, waiting for MT to offer interest on Traditional Currency holdings. If even a small percentage of their earned interest, it would do wonders for deposits.

[JoelKatz]

So you're saying they should gamble my deposit on the currency markets in the hope of making a profit?

Yes, exactly. A hope of a profit is way better than a sure loss.

That seems a little risky.  Is there not a chance that by converting my deposited dollars into yen that they could end up unable to pay me back when I try to withdraw?

Sure, but risk minimization has risk too. There's no perfect solution, but some that are obviously very bad. "Minimize risk at all costs" is one of the worst.

There's no reason they have to hold your value in the same demomination as you are going to claim it, and that's usually a very foolish thing to do. If Mt. Gox did that, they'd have to charge you a storage fee or eat losses from inactive accounts.

I don't understand why they would have to charge a storage fee.  Where's the expense in holding dollars in a bank account?

Safes cost money. Guards cost money. If you mean loan it out to make interest, then there's risk associated with that.

[DeathAndTaxes]

I don't understand why they would have to charge a storage fee.  Where's the expense in holding dollars in a bank account?

In the US it is usually >0% if it is a commercial account which is insured (FDIC only covers $250K which is a token amount for a major business).  Someone with millions in dollar deposits will pay a holding fee on the balance in the demand account (or risk losing a lot in a bank failure).  Small but non-zero.  Generally banks will offer $50M insurance via CDARS on CDs at "not cost" (well taken from the rate of return) but not for demand accounts.

There are services which provide insured "demand like" accounts by handling cash management behind the scenes but they really only make sense for very large accounts.  Also they tend to use money market funds which are not guaranteed to hold par value.




No idea on the banking/insurance costs in Japan.

[nybble41]

I used to debate [Libertarians] who think that all fractional reserve banking is fraud. My usual response is to ask them if they really think there actually exists anyone who thinks that when you deposit money in a bank, they put your money in the safe so that you can withdraw it when you want to. I guess I'll have to find a new argument, because it now appears there is at least one such person.

There probably are a small but measurable fraction of account holders who really think the bank holds all their money in a vault. That's the way banks are normally portrayed in popular fiction, after all. However, even those who understand how banks really work tend to assume, deep down, that "their" money will always be available for withdrawal when they need it. Just look at how betrayed people act when there is a run on the bank and they can't get at "their" money.

Being a firm believer in caveat emptor, I'm not going to claim that fractional reserve banking is an outright fraud. Somewhere in the fine print the banks do state that your money may not be available immediately on request. However, it's not hard to see why people call it that, or why a strict separation was required between interest-bearing time accounts, like CDs, and fee-based demand accounts.

[JoelKatz]

Being a firm believer in caveat emptor, I'm not going to claim that fractional reserve banking is an outright fraud. Somewhere in the fine print the banks do state that your money may not be available immediately on request. However, it's not hard to see why people call it that, or why a strict separation was required between interest-bearing time accounts, like CDs, and fee-based demand accounts.

Runs on banks really isn't a problem. Banks can just resume doing what they used to do -- have a clause in the savings agreement that allows them to declare an emergency and defer withdrawals in exchange for paying their customers an increased interest rate. So long as the bank is fundamentally solid and the problem is just liquidity, you can even find other banks who will buy your deposits at the bank suffering from a run. They know they'll get paid the amount, plus more than normal interest, when the bank recovers its liquidity.

The problem is if a bank makes bad investments such as loans that will never be repaid. Insufficient equity is much more devastating than insufficient liquidity.

In the mid 80's, some Libertarians who believed that fractional-reserve banking was a fraud opened an "honest" bank. They stored your money in their vault and had 100% reserves. Of course, they couldn't pay any interest and even had to charge a small storage fee. Not surprisingly, their service wasn't very popular at all. (Though, in fairness, part of this is because the government insures bank deposits. Heck, in today's economic climate, they might actually do some business for people with amounts over the FDIC limit.)

[nybble41]

Being a firm believer in caveat emptor, I'm not going to claim that fractional reserve banking is an outright fraud. Somewhere in the fine print the banks do state that your money may not be available immediately on request. However, it's not hard to see why people call it that, or why a strict separation was required between interest-bearing time accounts, like CDs, and fee-based demand accounts.

Runs on banks really isn't a problem. Banks can just resume doing what they used to do -- have a clause in the savings agreement that allows them to declare an emergency and defer withdrawals in exchange for paying their customers an increased interest rate.

Yes, that's what I was referring to by "the fine print". It doesn't change the expectation people have that their deposits are theirs, whatever the bank may really be doing with them.

So long as the bank is fundamentally solid and the problem is just liquidity, you can even find other banks who will buy your deposits at the bank suffering from a run. They know they'll get paid the amount, plus more than normal interest, when the bank recovers its liquidity.

The problem is if a bank makes bad investments such as loans that will never be repaid. Insufficient equity is much more devastating than insufficient liquidity.

Agreed. You don't normally have serious bank runs due to mere liquidity issues. In a pinch, a bank in need of liquidity, but having sufficient equity, can always take out loans from other banks to cover short-term demand. The disconnect between depositors' expectations and reality is only revealed in the event of a large-scale economic downturn, such as at the start of the Great Depression, when the banks' investments are revealed to be systematically bad.

Moreover, in a situation like that--precisely the one the FDIC was supposedly instituted to protect against--the FDIC would be useless. They don't have anywhere near enough reserves to make up for a wide-spread run on the banks without printing up so much new money that the dollar would become worthless. The FDIC's only positive influence, if you can call it that, is to generate enough false confidence to keep people from demanding immediate withdrawals once the crisis is revealed.

In the mid 80's, some Libertarians who believed that fractional-reserve banking was a fraud opened an "honest" bank. They stored your money in their vault and had 100% reserves. Of course, they couldn't pay any interest and even had to charge a small storage fee. Not surprisingly, their service wasn't very popular at all. (Though, in fairness, part of this is because the government insures bank deposits. Heck, in today's economic climate, they might actually do some business for people with amounts over the FDIC limit.)

Not a surprising result. The honest bank is in a similar position to someone trying to operate a self-sufficient toll road in competition with the public (tax-funded) roads. When people are already forced to pay for the public option, even a reasonable price for a private alternative is too much. The FDIC isn't exactly tax-funded (unless you count inflation), but it does come with the "reassuring" backing of the federal government and access to the Treasury. It's hard for a completely private insurer to compete.

Rather than a vault-only bank, I think I would offer two types of accounts (time and demand), and clearly explain the risks involved with the time accounts. The demand accounts would charge a fee, but have 100% reserves. The time accounts would pay interest, but withdrawal requests would be subject to delays and/or interest penalties, as with CDs, plus a prominent disclaimer that they are subject to investment risk and may lose value. By mixing the two you can get the same effect as a modern-style savings account, except with full disclosure and control over the level of risk. The only real problem in the first place was blending the terms of time and demand accounts while obscuring the details.

[JusticeForYou]

Being a firm believer in caveat emptor, I'm not going to claim that fractional reserve banking is an outright fraud. Somewhere in the fine print the banks do state that your money may not be available immediately on request. However, it's not hard to see why people call it that, or why a strict separation was required between interest-bearing time accounts, like CDs, and fee-based demand accounts.

Runs on banks really isn't a problem. Banks can just resume doing what they used to do -- have a clause in the savings agreement that allows them to declare an emergency and defer withdrawals in exchange for paying their customers an increased interest rate. So long as the bank is fundamentally solid and the problem is just liquidity, you can even find other banks who will buy your deposits at the bank suffering from a run. They know they'll get paid the amount, plus more than normal interest, when the bank recovers its liquidity.

The problem is if a bank makes bad investments such as loans that will never be repaid. Insufficient equity is much more devastating than insufficient liquidity.

In the mid 80's, some Libertarians who believed that fractional-reserve banking was a fraud opened an "honest" bank. They stored your money in their vault and had 100% reserves. Of course, they couldn't pay any interest and even had to charge a small storage fee. Not surprisingly, their service wasn't very popular at all. (Though, in fairness, part of this is because the government insures bank deposits. Heck, in today's economic climate, they might actually do some business for people with amounts over the FDIC limit.)

Ironically, the equity in this market IS the liquidity.

[TTBit]

In the mid 80's, some Libertarians who believed that fractional-reserve banking was a fraud opened an "honest" bank. They stored your money in their vault and had 100% reserves. Of course, they couldn't pay any interest and even had to charge a small storage fee. Not surprisingly, their service wasn't very popular at all. (Though, in fairness, part of this is because the government insures bank deposits. Heck, in today's economic climate, they might actually do some business for people with amounts over the FDIC limit.)

Holy crap I want to do this, if only to f*ck with govt regulators. With interest rates at 0% and fee after fee, this seems economically possible now. I would scan each bill that is deposited, and when you withdraw you get back the exact same bill (I am thinking by making your money non-fungible that it would be more legal?) This would also mean no fraud.


Back on topic: I don't understand the hate for MtGox. The most successful bitcoin application yet, and yet it gets dragged through the mud.

[dirtydiego]

They are still taking forever on their dwolla and wire transfers.... really thinking about another ex-changer now..... any suggestions? thanks!

[Coinabul]

4) I believe Coinabul delays in shipping are related to the fact that they are not getting paid timely by MtGox.

We've solved our banking issues.

Cheers,
-Jon

[Grouver (BtcBalance)]

Like somebody said on this forum:

"
Bitcoin isn't decentralized.
It's power is in hands of a couple of big parties.

1) Mtgox (handles 80% of all exchange traffic)
2) Deepbit & BTCGUild (handles almost 25 % of all mining)
3) Early Early adopters (50~100 people who own ten thousands of Bitcoins per person)
"

[realnowhereman]

Like somebody said on this forum:

"
Bitcoin isn't decentralized.
It's power is in hands of a couple of big parties.

1) Mtgox (handles 80% of all exchange traffic)
2) Deepbit & BTCGUild (handles almost 25 % of all mining)
3) Early Early adopters (50~100 people who own ten thousands of Bitcoins per person)
"

Power like that doesn't matter.  Provided it has competition or can be replaced.With bitcoin, the power holders can always be replaced.

Let's consider the alternatives; where is the irreplaceable power in the fiat/e-cash world.

• You can't access your paypal money without paypal (similarly, dwollar, liberty reserve, goldmoney, etc, etc)
• You can't earn from seigniorage no matter how many printing presses you own (the equivalent of bitcoin mining)
• You can't stop others from endlessly issuing new money.
• You can't store your own money electronically.  The banking system is effectively hard-wired in to our modern world.
• You can't transfer money.  You might think you can; but you can't.  What you can do is beg permission from one of your debtors (the bank) to transfer that debt to another.  If that other is in a different country; or in a country your debtor, the bank, disapproves of, you have no alternative available to you.
• Try getting on a plane with $100,000 in cash to understand what irreplaceable "power" really is.
• You can't pay your tax bill in anything other than fiat (this is the one thing that "backs" fiat)

Is bitcoin perfect?  No.  Are there parties with more influence than others?  Yes.  Nobody is in a monopoly position though.  Nobody in the bitcoin community has written themselves into the law to protect their market.

Bitcoin is better than the alternatives; so let's not worry too much about whether Mt.Gox is the biggest exchange or not -- it's like worrying that Coke are the biggest providers of Cola.

[mrbrown]

anybody knows how long a transfer from mt gox to okpay takes? been waiting for a week almost now and no replys from mt gox...

[cryptoanarchist]

If everyone who bitched about the size of Gox used a different exchange, they probably wouldn't be the biggest anymore.

[Vernon715]

Are BTC withdrawals delayed?  If the smartest course of action is to take all your Gox money and run with BTC while you can, because you know you can get your hands on it in the shortest possible time, we could see the price of Bitcoin take an artificially induced climb.

My BTC withdrawals aren't delayed, Mt. Gox says that I need to enter a valid amount even when I am requesting 1/10th of my account balance.

Is there some sort of minimum withdrawal?

[bagazaga]

My USD wires are delayed for more than a week.

[Vernon715]

WARNING: Statement of the obvious

Mt.gox has issues.

[Raoul Duke]

WARNING: Statement of the obvious

Mt.gox has issues.

No shit, Sherlock!

[Vernon715]

WARNING: Statement of the obvious

Mt.gox has issues.

No shit, Sherlock!

I warned you

But seriously, they should disclose their financials and other relevant information.

[David_Benz]

USE CAMP BX AND STOP USING THE BITCOIN GIANTS.

DO NOT USE GOX
DO NOT USE DEEPBIT.

[Maged]

Are BTC withdrawals delayed?  If the smartest course of action is to take all your Gox money and run with BTC while you can, because you know you can get your hands on it in the shortest possible time, we could see the price of Bitcoin take an artificially induced climb.

My BTC withdrawals aren't delayed, Mt. Gox says that I need to enter a valid amount even when I am requesting 1/10th of my account balance.

Is there some sort of minimum withdrawal?

If you request less than 1 BTC, make sure that there is a 0 before the decimal. MtGox is picky about that.

[bagazaga]

We are working on improving the situation with liquidity, and have currently some issues because of the volume of illegal activity that took place in the past year.

Things are moving forward and I expect to see things back to normal by June.

Maybe it's time to think about selling Mt.Gox to someone, who can cover Mt.Gox's financial holes, while it's worth is above zero.

[bagazaga]

I don't think, that bitcoin will collapse if Mt.Gox collapses. There are other ways/platforms to make trades.

[Vernon715]

Are BTC withdrawals delayed?  If the smartest course of action is to take all your Gox money and run with BTC while you can, because you know you can get your hands on it in the shortest possible time, we could see the price of Bitcoin take an artificially induced climb.

My BTC withdrawals aren't delayed, Mt. Gox says that I need to enter a valid amount even when I am requesting 1/10th of my account balance.

Is there some sort of minimum withdrawal?

If you request less than 1 BTC, make sure that there is a 0 before the decimal. MtGox is picky about that.

bagazaga, you officially earned the title of awesome!! Thanks!!!

[Maged]

Heh, thanks.

[Unacceptable]

Has anyone hacked Mtgox?? My account got cleaned out

How do I go about getting help with this.I emailed them just now.So,I'm waiting for a response,but maybe you guys know a faster way to results.

This sucks   

[rjk]

Has anyone hacked Mtgox?? My account got cleaned out

How do I go about getting help with this.I emailed them just now.So,I'm waiting for a response,but maybe you guys know a faster way to results.

This sucks  

Another one? Did you happen to use an insecure password, OR did you happen to use the same password on both Bitcoinica and MtGox?

Repeat after me: The value of the Yubikey is greater than the loss of all my funds!

[Unacceptable]

Has anyone hacked Mtgox?? My account got cleaned out

How do I go about getting help with this.I emailed them just now.So,I'm waiting for a response,but maybe you guys know a faster way to results.

This sucks  

Another one? Did you happen to use an insecure password, OR did you happen to use the same password on both Bitcoinica and MtGox?

Repeat after me: The value of the Yubikey is greater than the loss of all my funds!

Nope,my PW is different on any & all accounts.I never had a Bitcoinia account,thank god.None of my PW's have been changed either,soo............

 

[rjk]

Did you ever log on via any kind of unsecured network, and have you verified that your system is malware-free?

[Unacceptable]

Did you ever log on via any kind of unsecured network, and have you verified that your system is malware-free?

Nope,I only login from my main PC & scan my PC regularly.

Edit:

Well I'm SOL,I thought so:

Thank you for your inquiry. We would recommend you to change your password as soon as possible. Unfortunately, bitcoin transactions are irreversible and we can not refund any amount of the stolen funds. As a business if Mt.Gox were to offer you a cash or bitcoin refund in compensation of this extremely unfortunate event, there would be a large increase in the number of hacking attempts to capitalize upon the possibility of financial reward.

As a further remedy, if you wish to retrieve your funds, we ask that you file a police report for the stolen goods. It is preferable for the police to inspect your computer, but not necessary. Once this investigation has occurred and a copy of the police report issued, please send a copy of it along with a notarized copy of your passport or Government issued photo ID to Mt.Gox and have the police contact us so that we can cooperate with their investigation by providing any requested information.

Please let us know how you wish to proceed, and again we apologize for the frustration and inconvenience caused.

Like the police can help,now THATS FUNNY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I've got the IP & a wallet address the coins went to,anyone willing (or know how to) to do some detective work?? Not sure how much I could pay,but we can work something out.

Oh well,I'll earn more & keep them well hidden.

[Dabs]

Well, Goat recently got his 400 BTC, so you can start there.

[Unacceptable]

I just don't understand how this happened

I scanned my pc with several AV's & nothing,my email isn't compromised(dosen't appear to be).

If my PC was hacked they would've gotten my wallet too,if my email was hacked they would've gotten my pool info & coins from there too.

I'm SOOO confused............

The only thing I can think of is MTgox security is freakin lame.

 

[Vladimir]

As a further remedy, if you wish to retrieve your funds, we ask that you file a police report for the stolen goods. It is preferable for the police to inspect your computer, but not necessary. Once this investigation has occurred and a copy of the police report issued, please send a copy of it along with a notarized copy of your passport or Government issued photo ID to Mt.Gox and have the police contact us so that we can cooperate with their investigation by providing any requested information.

Actually this is quite reasonable position. I would do the same in mtgox's position.

[Vernon715]

What is the best bitcoin trading site beside Mt. gox?

[SgtSpike]

I just don't understand how this happened

I scanned my pc with several AV's & nothing,my email isn't compromised(dosen't appear to be).

If my PC was hacked they would've gotten my wallet too,if my email was hacked they would've gotten my pool info & coins from there too.

I'm SOOO confused............

The only thing I can think of is MTgox security is freakin lame.

 

Did you click on any links in emails from MtGox?

EDIT:  Also, check your browser history for any sites with "mtgox" in it, and see what the base domain of each is (everything before .com).

[Unacceptable]

I just don't understand how this happened

I scanned my pc with several AV's & nothing,my email isn't compromised(dosen't appear to be).

If my PC was hacked they would've gotten my wallet too,if my email was hacked they would've gotten my pool info & coins from there too.

I'm SOOO confused............

The only thing I can think of is MTgox security is freakin lame.

 

Did you click on any links in emails from MtGox?

EDIT:  Also, check your browser history for any sites with "mtgox" in it, and see what the base domain of each is (everything before .com).

They never have links in thier emails so no.rjk said my PW was weak,so I guess thats why.

Heres the info on the trade,I changed my PW & will no longer keep ANY coins or cash in there ever:

There has been a withdrawal from your Mt.Gox account:

Transaction reference: 020c4071-151d-4ac6-11fa-14d1fb9df1a4
Date: 2012-06-04 11:05:02 GMT
IP: 82.198.47.30

You can access your account history for more details.

Please contact us as soon as possible by replying to this email if you did not request this withdrawal.

Thanks,
The Mt.Gox Team

The IP looks like it's in spain,like that means anything  

Here's the wallet my coins went to:



2012/06/04 07:05:02

Withdraw


36.17303753 BTC

0.00000000 BTC



Bitcoin withdraw to 1NSwYqg5DmrJS1cEnXHw3dJKDtZmHg4d5P

[MykelSilver]

Bitcoin withdraw to 1NSwYqg5DmrJS1cEnXHw3dJKDtZmHg4d5P

Hey, that's my address!. Thanks man!
(joke)

[tarrant_01]

Bitcoin withdraw to 1NSwYqg5DmrJS1cEnXHw3dJKDtZmHg4d5P

It's still sitting there untouched for a month?

http://www.blockchain.info/address/1NSwYqg5DmrJS1cEnXHw3dJKDtZmHg4d5P

[Bigpiggy01]

I just don't understand how this happened

I scanned my pc with several AV's & nothing,my email isn't compromised(dosen't appear to be).

If my PC was hacked they would've gotten my wallet too,if my email was hacked they would've gotten my pool info & coins from there too.

I'm SOOO confused............

The only thing I can think of is MTgox security is freakin lame.

 

Did you click on any links in emails from MtGox?

EDIT:  Also, check your browser history for any sites with "mtgox" in it, and see what the base domain of each is (everything before .com).

They never have links in thier emails so no.rjk said my PW was weak,so I guess thats why.

Heres the info on the trade,I changed my PW & will no longer keep ANY coins or cash in there ever:

There has been a withdrawal from your Mt.Gox account:

Transaction reference: 020c4071-151d-4ac6-11fa-14d1fb9df1a4
Date: 2012-06-04 11:05:02 GMT
IP: 82.198.47.30

You can access your account history for more details.

Please contact us as soon as possible by replying to this email if you did not request this withdrawal.

Thanks,
The Mt.Gox Team

The IP looks like it's in spain,like that means anything  

Here's the wallet my coins went to:



2012/06/04 07:05:02

Withdraw


36.17303753 BTC

0.00000000 BTC



Bitcoin withdraw to 1NSwYqg5DmrJS1cEnXHw3dJKDtZmHg4d5P

There are a bunch of peeps targeting LR exchangers that are also looking at BTC atm www.paygold.com for example used to be full of crap (rootkits and funny exploits). They used a modified version of the TDSS rootkit I was stupid and went to buy some LR while working on a miner  this shit spread over most of my local network fairly quickly and the clean up was a bitch. One nice little utility that worked well was http://support.kaspersky.com/faq/?qid=208283363 I got off cheaply as they only managed to stick on that addy switcher trojan on one box so it cost me 0.83btc.

However the whole mess was down to me being stupid. And trying to use an unhardened miner to buy some LR 

[casascius]

If accounts in MtGox could be enabled so that a PGP-signed message was required to do a withdrawal, MtGox would conclusively be able to prove that any withdraw request was signed.  It is a pity no exchange does this, the only place we have iron-clad security like this is on a chat bot.

[Bigpiggy01]

If accounts in MtGox could be enabled so that a PGP-signed message was required to do a withdrawal, MtGox would conclusively be able to prove that any withdraw request was signed.  It is a pity no exchange does this, the only place we have iron-clad security like this is on a chat bot.

The first exchange to bring this out would for sure get a decent % of my business 

[paraipan]

If accounts in MtGox could be enabled so that a PGP-signed message was required to do a withdrawal, MtGox would conclusively be able to prove that any withdraw request was signed.  It is a pity no exchange does this, the only place we have iron-clad security like this is on a chat bot.

The first exchange to bring this out would for sure get a decent % of my business 

Or at least support bitcoin address signatures. On OTC, Gribble already supports authenticating by using this feature of the Bitcoin software.

[jago25_98]

If accounts in MtGox could be enabled so that a PGP-signed message was required to do a withdrawal, MtGox would conclusively be able to prove that any withdraw request was signed.  It is a pity no exchange does this, the only place we have iron-clad security like this is on a chat bot.

The first exchange to bring this out would for sure get a decent % of my business 

Or at least support bitcoin address signatures. On OTC, Gribble already supports authenticating by using this feature of the Bitcoin software.

I can't use $bitcoind gethelp as I'm behind a heavily firewalled connection on a heavily restricted machine...
 but I'd like to know more about that...