POW vs POS?

[jaybny]

yo, its just a CryptoNote clone.. so its as CPU mined at CryptoNote is.

his point is about Proof-of-Bergstake. which is innovative and new.. and fixes Nxt and peercoin issues.  BRO

 

[cbeast]

yo, its just a CryptoNote clone.. so its as CPU mined at CryptoNote is.

his point is about Proof-of-Bergstake. which is innovative and new.. and fixes Nxt and peercoin issues.  BRO

 

CryptoNote is GPU mined, but anyway I can already see holes in the Proof of  I-was-an-early-adopter-because-I-had-a-GPU-miner scheme. The fact that stake comes from proof that you were a miner is just as fallible as pure stakeholders. It has many other weaknesses, but I'll wait until it's fleshed out more so I don't keep getting "oh, we already fixed that so it will be in the next version."

[jaybny]

"oh, we already fixed that so it will be in the next version."

your on

[leezay]

i'm sorry if i'm hitting some nerves here because i know its a sensitive subject.  what are the disadvantages of POS and why is POW so important? POW is a fun game, but is all this expensive POW really necessary to keep a functional & secure coin? 

Need something to secure the network and payment system.

PoS works similar to how the fed print money, I don't see why anyone want to go back to the old system.

[jaybny]

i'm sorry if i'm hitting some nerves here because i know its a sensitive subject.  what are the disadvantages of POS and why is POW so important? POW is a fun game, but is all this expensive POW really necessary to keep a functional & secure coin? 

Need something to secure the network and payment system.

PoS works similar to how the fed print money, I don't see why anyone want to go back to the old system.

it works for non-currency only blockchains .. like DACS

[cbeast]

The mining farmers are the first geniuses to figure out how to outcompete other miners. To the victor go the spoils. This is a celebration of capitalism!

it is also destroying the value of btc, we need about a million new dollars daily to buy all the coins being generated assuming they all get sold, if that money is not found the price will keep collapsing, of course you dont care you've been here since 2011 and hopefully cashed out enough to live on forever, for the rest of us the pow system has been a disaster

When you consider that 3600 new bitcoins are being generated every day, the market cap hasn't gone down as much as you think when averaged over the last 8 months since Gox collapsed.

[cbeast]

When you consider that 3600 new bitcoins are being generated every day, the market cap hasn't gone down as much as you think when averaged over the last 8 months since Gox collapsed.

thats because not every new coin gets sold and there is of course some new fiat coming in just not enough to keep pace with coin generation
im picking numbers out of thin air but lets say 100million new fiat came in in 2014, this was perhaps 10% of what was needed to keep the price at 1k and so the price naturally crashed,but without mining going on that 100 million may have exceeded the total value of coins on exchanges and been enough to double the market cap and give us 2k btc by xmas 2014, the numbers may be very far off but you see the reasoning
btc is meant to be be a deflationary store of value but mining process stops it from being that, im seriously fucked off because i want to retire on 10k btc in a couple of years and probably could if it wasnt for miners dumping

When you say that you need 10k BTC to retire, what do you intend to do with them, dump them? I'm curious why you think you need X amount.

[jabo38]

Actually my preferences tend to lean toward pow. But currently as what is happening right now giant farms with heavy equipment are in total control which means average joe like myself don't even have a chance at all. I still believe cpu mining where one cpu translates to one vote... just to ensure the coins are fairly distributed

what prevent the rich buying thousand of cpu and mining with it ?

I have 4 cpus at home and i can start mining. The rich slob down the road buys 1000 cpus and also mine. So in this scenario, i don't spend additional hardware and i still can get a chance. The cpu my kids use it for homework. One for gaming and another obsolete unit use for office works. Another unit just goes unused.

Turn the other way even though i can afford, i'm not going to get special rig just to mine.

So u see the difference?

I have 6 old computers.  I can use them all to mine bitcoin and not ever get a bitcoin.  It basically is a complete waste of money and electricity to try to mine with anything that is not specialized hardware (asics). 

Now with PoS, anybody's old computer can support the network.  Even a Ras Pi an be a node. 

[jabo38]

PoW = Spend a lot of money on computers and electricity to get coins through at a 98% predictable rate as you join a good and big pool.

PoS = Spend money directly on coins and buy them at a 100% predictable rate and not waste money on computers and electricity.

Both have block chains. 

PoW usually just have a blockchain and little esle.  Sometimes 2nd party platforms can piggyback on PoW
 
PoS has a ton of options and services in addition to the traditional blockchain

[Window2Wall]

PoW = Spend a lot of money on computers and electricity to get coins through at a 98% predictable rate as you join a good and big pool.

PoS = Spend money directly on coins and buy them at a 100% predictable rate and not waste money on computers and electricity.

Both have block chains. 

PoW usually just have a blockchain and little esle.  Sometimes 2nd party platforms can piggyback on PoW
 
PoS has a ton of options and services in addition to the traditional blockchain

The problem with PoS is that if you buy a lot of coins then you could attack the network without anyone knowing, sell the coins plus your ill gotten gains and the scam coin will be damaged once it is realized that an attack took place. With PoW you need to invest in machines that mine so if you attack the network you can sell your ill gotten gains but the future earnings potential from your machine will be greatly reduced so you would have an incentive to not attack the network

[jabo38]

PoW = Spend a lot of money on computers and electricity to get coins through at a 98% predictable rate as you join a good and big pool.

PoS = Spend money directly on coins and buy them at a 100% predictable rate and not waste money on computers and electricity.

Both have block chains. 

PoW usually just have a blockchain and little esle.  Sometimes 2nd party platforms can piggyback on PoW
 
PoS has a ton of options and services in addition to the traditional blockchain

The problem with PoS is that if you buy a lot of coins then you could attack the network without anyone knowing, sell the coins plus your ill gotten gains and the scam coin will be damaged once it is realized that an attack took place. With PoW you need to invest in machines that mine so if you attack the network you can sell your ill gotten gains but the future earnings potential from your machine will be greatly reduced so you would have an incentive to not attack the network

I have heard this said before and a lot of people talk about it in theory, but I wondering has the theory ever been put to the test. 

I know for a fact many PoW coins have been taken over and destroyed by a malicious actor, but I have still yet to hear about a single PoS coin being harmed in the way described.  And this is in a world where sooooooo many fake PoS coins are released just for pumps.  Can anybody confirm a real world example of a PoS that was actually "51%" attacked by a person that bought a bunch of coins and then used them to attack the network?  If so, I would definitely like to read more about it. 

[Q7]

Actually my preferences tend to lean toward pow. But currently as what is happening right now giant farms with heavy equipment are in total control which means average joe like myself don't even have a chance at all. I still believe cpu mining where one cpu translates to one vote... just to ensure the coins are fairly distributed

what prevent the rich buying thousand of cpu and mining with it ?

I have 4 cpus at home and i can start mining. The rich slob down the road buys 1000 cpus and also mine. So in this scenario, i don't spend additional hardware and i still can get a chance. The cpu my kids use it for homework. One for gaming and another obsolete unit use for office works. Another unit just goes unused.

Turn the other way even though i can afford, i'm not going to get special rig just to mine.

So u see the difference?

I have 6 old computers.  I can use them all to mine bitcoin and not ever get a bitcoin.  It basically is a complete waste of money and electricity to try to mine with anything that is not specialized hardware (asics).  

Now with PoS, anybody's old computer can support the network.  Even a Ras Pi an be a node.  

Read the statements carefully again. It changing to pow - cpu mine. That would provide some advantage to an average joe. With current scenario, cpu don't even stand the slightest chance at all. Not even single bit. Everybody knows about that.

[inBitweTrust]

I have heard this said before and a lot of people talk about it in theory, but I wondering has the theory ever been put to the test.  

I know for a fact many PoW coins have been taken over and destroyed by a malicious actor, but I have still yet to hear about a single PoS coin being harmed in the way described.  And this is in a world where sooooooo many fake PoS coins are released just for pumps.  Can anybody confirm a real world example of a PoS that was actually "51%" attacked by a person that bought a bunch of coins and then used them to attack the network?  If so, I would definitely like to read more about it.  

There is too much focus on comparing the cost to 51% attack PoW coins vs the cost 51% attack to a PoS coin. There are many attack vectors to consider from bugs in code (heartbleed), DDoS, Sybil attack, NAS attack, Timewarp attack, Addition Attack, Modification Attack, Race attack, Vector76 attack, Brute force attack, ect....

There may not be any examples of 51% attacks directly on a PoS currency as those are relatively new examples with large initial stakeholders who have strong vested interests in not attacking their own assets but there are plenty of examples of other attacks and weaknesses that any user and investor should be concerned with.

An example - NXT was attacked before it was even launched. The creators of Nxt botched what could have been viewed as a fair initial launch by changing the dates and not waiting till there was a greater distribution list before closing the IPO. This will forever taint the public and investors perception of nxt and is a social attack on the integrity of the currency.

As far as BTSX is concerned, there are many weaknesses within DPoS , one of them I have yet to mention, but is being carried out as we speak right now by Invictus and many of the early investors against their own currency. BTSX shareholders like to promote certain qualities of BTSX/BitUSD but behind closed doors there are negotiations happening as we speak between Invictus and some large banks.

I am not suggesting that Bitcoin is impervious either, in fact I'm suggesting that all crypto-currencies are extremely fragile from internal and external attacks. I am merely suggesting that the way in which PoS/ DPoS promoters talk about security is very naive when they insinuate that they are so much more secure than Bitcoin.

[scryptasicminer]

PoW coins are slowing going out of fashion it seems.

All the new coins are PoS based and some are doing quite well.

[kokojie]

PoW = Spend a lot of money on computers and electricity to get coins through at a 98% predictable rate as you join a good and big pool.

PoS = Spend money directly on coins and buy them at a 100% predictable rate and not waste money on computers and electricity.

Both have block chains.  

PoW usually just have a blockchain and little esle.  Sometimes 2nd party platforms can piggyback on PoW
 
PoS has a ton of options and services in addition to the traditional blockchain

The problem with PoS is that if you buy a lot of coins then you could attack the network without anyone knowing, sell the coins plus your ill gotten gains and the scam coin will be damaged once it is realized that an attack took place. With PoW you need to invest in machines that mine so if you attack the network you can sell your ill gotten gains but the future earnings potential from your machine will be greatly reduced so you would have an incentive to not attack the network

I have heard this said before and a lot of people talk about it in theory, but I wondering has the theory ever been put to the test.  

I know for a fact many PoW coins have been taken over and destroyed by a malicious actor, but I have still yet to hear about a single PoS coin being harmed in the way described.  And this is in a world where sooooooo many fake PoS coins are released just for pumps.  Can anybody confirm a real world example of a PoS that was actually "51%" attacked by a person that bought a bunch of coins and then used them to attack the network?  If so, I would definitely like to read more about it.  

You will never read about that scenario happening, because no one is dumb enough to buy 51% stake in an eco-system, then proceed to destroy their own stake and wealth. It's like burning your own money. Well if you do, then the rest of stakeholders would thank you for it, you just made their stake 100% more valuable by destroying your own stake, because the attacking stake will soon be blocked by community consensus and rendered unusable forever.

On the other hand, with the PoW mining farms, nearly nothing can be done to stop them from attacking any PoW network that they can overwelm with their hardware, as you already seen in the death of many PoW altcoins.

[inBitweTrust]

PoW coins are slowing going out of fashion it seems.

All the new coins are PoS based and some are doing quite well.

This naturally makes sense, PoW alts can't properly secure themselves anymore because of either Scrypt Asics, botnets, or simply not having the hashing power of Bitcoin. I expect many PoW alts to start failing and continue decreasing in market share because of this. Look how litecoin just recently lost number 2 in market cap -- http://coinmarketcap.com/

The exception to this are coins that depend upon the security of bitcoin blockchain like coloredcoins , counter-party, mastercoin, and namecoin.

[kokojie]

PoW coins are slowing going out of fashion it seems.

All the new coins are PoS based and some are doing quite well.

This naturally makes sense, PoW alts can't properly secure itself anymore because of either Scrypt Asics, botnets, or simply not having the hashing power of Bitcoin. I expect many PoW alts to start failing and continue decreasing in market share because of this. Look how litecoin just recently lost number 2 in market cap -- http://coinmarketcap.com/

The exception to this are coins that depend upon the security of bitcoin blockchain like coloredcoins , counter-party, mastercoin, and namecoin.

There's nothing to stop a well funded and determined attacker to attack Bitcoin's PoW network in the same fashion, it's still only cost 10% of Bitcoin marketcap to attack. That's extremely cheap compared to buying 51% stake in a PoS eco-system.

[cbeast]

PoS bag holders sound like communist party politicians. They say that working is at an end if you will join their party. They then proceed to violently assault the business leadership  (PoW miners) in the community and use intimidation to scam their property. I prefer an honest days work for an honest days pay.Thanks, but no thanks Mr. Chairman.

[inBitweTrust]

You will never read about that scenario happening, because no one is dumb enough to buy 51% stake in an eco-system, then proceed to destroy their own stake and wealth. It's like burning your own money.

What if the stakeholders attacked their own currency unintentionally by falsely believing their actions would benefit their currency? Is this not a real possibility that is unfolding itself right now with Bitshares which may happen as soon as 1Q 2015 with a very real marketing plan that is being negotiated with certain banks?

Or are you going to insist that PoS/DPoS is immune?

[kokojie]

You will never read about that scenario happening, because no one is dumb enough to buy 51% stake in an eco-system, then proceed to destroy their own stake and wealth. It's like burning your own money.

What if the stakeholders attacked their own currency unintentionally by falsely believing their actions would benefit their currency? Is this not a real possibility that is unfolding itself right now with Bitshares which may happen as soon as 1Q 2015 with a very real marketing plan that is being negotiated with certain banks?

Not sure what you mean, you'll need to talk in more detail how is this an attack on their own currency, how do you know with certainty that something is a false benefit, while stakeholders believe otherwise?