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 Author Topic: [ANN][PHS][50% PoS ONLY!] PhilosopherStones | ACTIVE Dev! | ~64% Yearly |  (Read 53984 times) This is a self-moderated topic. If you do not want to be moderated by the person who started this topic, create a new topic.
sorrros
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 March 14, 2015, 11:33:27 AM

Here is part of my calc on BTC at time of March 2015, maybe expert people do more research into this, from my perspective need of fully POS coins is given by math.

Code:
I updated current Bitcoin electric energy consumption, calculated like here:

BTC global hashrate:
360.000.000 Megahash/Second

Source: https://blockchain.info/charts/hash-rate

Current mining efficiency:
Optimistic: 0.51 Wh per Gigahash/s

Source: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=902305.0

Consumption of the network per year:
(360 000 000 / 1000) * 0.51 = 183 600 kWh per hour

183 600 x 24 x 365 = 1 608 336 000 kWh p.a. = 1.6 Terrawatthours per year

Please correct some numbers you know better, even if 10% is real, too much carbon is burning in this moment, possible >1,6 million tons of coal a year, by a software with only 3 billions market cap, what else can go wrong?

Hi mxn,

In fact the starting point is 0.51 J/GH, which equates 0,000277778 Wh/GH, not 0.51 Wh per GH/s

This is a pretty tricky conversion to use to go from Joules to KWh and Wh: 1J = (1/3600000)kWh = 1 Ws = 0,000277778 Wh
This can help: http://www.unitconversion.org/unit_converter/energy.html

In addition, the total Hashrate is 360 000 000 GH/s, not MH/s.

Then if you assume 1,842 kWh per ton of Coal following US Energy Information Administration, the estimate would be >870'000 tons of coal...
Source: http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=667&t=6

See below-
Power Efficiency    0,51        J/GH
Total BTC GH/s    360 000 000,00        GH/s
Total BTC GH/H    1 296 000 000 000,00        GH/H

Hourly BTC energy consumption (J/H)    662 025 974 025,97        J/H
Hourly BTC energy consumption (KWh/H)    183 896,10        KWh/H

Yearly BTC energy consumption (KWh/Y)    1 610 929 870,13        KWh p.a.

Tons of Coal/Kwh    0,0005429        T/KWh
Yearl coal consumption    874 554,76        T p.a.

I've double-checked with the calculator from Coinwarz and the math square. On average, the J/GH consumption may be roughly double of the AntMiner you used as a starting point - so  you have ultimately produced a good estimate of Coal consumption

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therealbigcoin
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 March 14, 2015, 03:51:04 PM

PHS will be the future, its the best coin i know with POS. Its also very old and well established so no fast pump n dump. I dont know why the trading volume is so low, but i think we could see a steady rise soon, if noone wanna sell and better go staking ^^ Also its a good store of value as we saw, while btc tanks, phs still goes up 20%
Maybe more capital coming, if btc goes down now.

What do you guys think?
Greetings

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mxn
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 March 14, 2015, 07:26:43 PMLast edit: March 26, 2015, 11:31:11 AM by mxn

sorrros, thanks for clearing, all our calculations as on reddit came to the same result, 1.6 Terrawatthours per year. >1 J per GH/s may more reality, think on old mining hardware, mining bots, badly configured software, free/cheap energy some use on their workplaces, etc. Other carbon wasting systems like cars can be fixed, mining is competitive by design, sorry BTC and many alts, your energy consumption looks broken.

Just for understanding, Antminers data on power consumption should be 590 Ws, not Watt as they wrote?

Welcome therealbigcoin

PHS runs near 2 years, history thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=263744.0

Edit: Some more history, the artwork of DKdance (his talent is missing here): http://imgur.com/a/NKmOd/
sorrros
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 March 15, 2015, 04:07:39 PM

In fact 590 W is correct;

590 (W) / 1155 (GH/s) = 0.51 J/GH

Watts are Joules/second; W = J/s

That was a good refresher on physics !

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Palmdetroit
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PHS 50% PoS - Stop mining start minting

 March 15, 2015, 05:52:42 PM

one question: what is the max. supply of phs ?

edit: 8.9 million correct?

Hi,

Hard coded cap is the same as NVC/PPC, which is 2 billion.

Since PHS is PoS only, hitting a hard cap would give 0 reason to stake anymore, so setting a hard limit isn't feasible anyway (fees are destroyed). IF we make no changes to code, and assuming 100% of PHS stakes constantly, this would take ~18 years. Of course, we average ~70% or so of staking so in reality closer to ~24 years from today.

PHS works by consensus of the network, my current feelings is we should cap the amount of stake per block sometime in the next year or so. But this will need to be an open community decision.

The average for the last 50k blocks was ~441.2 blocks per day and ~2,102 PHS created per day.

Just an example, but an option:

If we set a maximum stake of to 10 PHS per block, we would limit PHS production to ~4.4k per day. (could do more or less). At 10 million PHS this is a 16% annual inflation year 1, 15% year two... etc, decreasing in % on a steady curve.

Bitcoin of course has a hard limit and designed as a store of value, with PHS we have some leverage in what we want to do, a healthy 4% annual inflation in 10 years onward would also be feasible. Ultimately it's up to you guys to decide.

PD

May be a mistake above in the number, Just wanted to illustrate options.

Palmdetroit
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PHS 50% PoS - Stop mining start minting

 March 15, 2015, 06:10:36 PM

sorrros, thanks for clearing, all our calculations as on reddit came to the same result, 1.6 Terrawatthours per year. >1 J per GH/s may more reality, think on old mining hardware, mining bots, badly configured software, free/cheap energy some use on their workplaces, etc. Other carbon wasting systems like cars can be fixed, mining is competitive by design, sorry BTC and many alts, your energy consumption looks broken.

Just for understanding, Antminers data on power consumption should be 590 Ws, not Watt as they wrote?

Welcome therealbigcoin

PHS runs near 2 years, history thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=263744.0

Yep, I know there is still bitcoin mining zombie bots using CPU still to this day, even find one on occasion in the wild.

Well lets do PHS in comparison.

I guesstimated 10% of these nodes are run 100% of the time only for PHS OR have greater than 800 dust (stakes) which eats up 100% of 1 PC core. So I used 100 w/hr for them.

For every other node, which I guess just runs PHS in addition to a typical work day or on a computer running anyway, about 1 watt/hr. Might actually be less or more.

so 50 nodes:
5*100 = 500 w/hr
45*1 = 45 w/hr
.545 kWh/hr with 50 nodes

100 nodes
10x100 = 1 kWh/h
90*1 = 90 w/hr
1.09 kWh/hr with 100 nodes

Just some rough numbers here, might have mistakes, whats our yearly look like? And how many trees are we going to plant

Also I know bitcoin looks bad on paper, but when you compare it to physical currency creation, shipping, etc it's actually very green, just not as much as PoS.

mxn
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 March 15, 2015, 07:18:38 PMLast edit: March 16, 2015, 04:49:18 PM by mxn

100 nodes
10x100 = 1 kWh/h
90*1 = 90 w/hr
1.09 kWh/hr with 100 nodes

Then PHS is around 9.5 Megawatthours per year?
Enough to be proud, data of POWs in same scale would be interesting, maybe this energy can be made out of trees

Quote
...when you compare it to physical currency creation,...

Compare 1.6 Terrawatthours (math) or double >3.2 TWh (experience), i dont know many physical processes near that, seems close to a nuclear powerplant or developing country. Satoshi took electricity like gold, a rare resource, was he aware of upcoming years too? Large amounts of energy produced clean, cheap and everywhere by solar, fusion or whatever. Numbers given by science drawing a scenery where competition on energy is less relevant, and so POW can be. Hard to predict timescales or truth, what always stays relevant is a functional planet of course.
zuepfi11
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 March 16, 2015, 04:04:56 PMLast edit: March 17, 2015, 01:46:04 AM by zuepfi11

one question: what is the max. supply of phs ?

edit: 8.9 million correct?

Hi,

Hard coded cap is the same as NVC/PPC, which is 2 billion.

Since PHS is PoS only, hitting a hard cap would give 0 reason to stake anymore, so setting a hard limit isn't feasible anyway (fees are destroyed). IF we make no changes to code, and assuming 100% of PHS stakes constantly, this would take ~18 years. Of course, we average ~70% or so of staking so in reality closer to ~24 years from today.

PHS works by consensus of the network, my current feelings is we should cap the amount of stake per block sometime in the next year or so. But this will need to be an open community decision.

The average for the last 50k blocks was ~441.2 blocks per day and ~2,102 PHS created per day.

Just an example, but an option:

If we set a maximum stake of to 10 PHS per block, we would limit PHS production to ~4.4k per day. (could do more or less). At 10 million PHS this is a 16% annual inflation year 1, 15% year two... etc, decreasing in % on a steady curve.

Bitcoin of course has a hard limit and designed as a store of value, with PHS we have some leverage in what we want to do, a healthy 4% annual inflation in 10 years onward would also be feasible. Ultimately it's up to you guys to decide.

PD

May be a mistake above in the number, Just wanted to illustrate options.

thanks!

okok, sounds really interesting your idea ,but for me its hard to say which interest works near the best .of course at the moment 50%

Palmdetroit
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PHS 50% PoS - Stop mining start minting

 March 16, 2015, 10:28:05 PM

https://github.com/philosopherstonecoin/philosopherstone/releases

The new format requires 30 minutes - 8 hrs run-time to use (hardware dependent and is faster than a fresh full network sync).

Jabulon
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 March 19, 2015, 04:29:25 PM

This coin was among the first alts I ever got really excited about, and has my enduring respect and admiration. You have stood the test of time, in every regard. On behalf of myself and the Blackcoin Foundation, I applaud all the consistent and superb work you have done. I believe you are among a very small and select group of innovative proof-of-stake coins that will pave the way forward for all cryptocurrency.

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sorrros
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 March 21, 2015, 10:36:46 AM

one question: what is the max. supply of phs ?

edit: 8.9 million correct?

Hi,

Hard coded cap is the same as NVC/PPC, which is 2 billion.

Since PHS is PoS only, hitting a hard cap would give 0 reason to stake anymore, so setting a hard limit isn't feasible anyway (fees are destroyed). IF we make no changes to code, and assuming 100% of PHS stakes constantly, this would take ~18 years. Of course, we average ~70% or so of staking so in reality closer to ~24 years from today.

PHS works by consensus of the network, my current feelings is we should cap the amount of stake per block sometime in the next year or so. But this will need to be an open community decision.

The average for the last 50k blocks was ~441.2 blocks per day and ~2,102 PHS created per day.

Just an example, but an option:

If we set a maximum stake of to 10 PHS per block, we would limit PHS production to ~4.4k per day. (could do more or less). At 10 million PHS this is a 16% annual inflation year 1, 15% year two... etc, decreasing in % on a steady curve.

Bitcoin of course has a hard limit and designed as a store of value, with PHS we have some leverage in what we want to do, a healthy 4% annual inflation in 10 years onward would also be feasible. Ultimately it's up to you guys to decide.

PD

May be a mistake above in the number, Just wanted to illustrate options.

thanks!

okok, sounds really interesting your idea ,but for me its hard to say which interest works near the best .of course at the moment 50%

This is a very tricky discussion. One that needs to be tied to our community vision for PHS:
- Store of value: high rate
- Use in everyday life eventually: low rate

PHS is secure thanks to the many people staking it, thanks to the high interest. The overall value of the coin doesn't change. Inflation reduces price, meaning that 1 PHS today is worth more than 1 tomorrow; as you have more when you stake you keep value stable. We are irrational animals, even if the value remains constant, it just "feels good" to receive stones

For instance, I've seen other coins with interest up to 20% not getting enough staking... (ok maybe they were shitty in the first place)

However for business it's a pain in the ass to have to adjust prices all the time due to inflation. So a high rate would be prohibitive.
As long as cryptos do not get wide business/everyday acceptance I believe a high rate is needed.

As cryptos move to wider acceptance, it makes sense to lower the interest rate (i.e move from store of value to everyday use).

In this context, constant production of PHS (a la Ethereum) could be an acceptable solution.
However it is highly risky. In fact it works only if the total value of the coin evolves at the same rate to compensate the inflation so that the price per coin remains at least constant. If it's not the case you're in a negative spiral, gradually limiting the interest in the currency with lower amount of coins at lower value per coin. Then making it less secure, further pushing coin value down.

In fact, the problem above would arise whenever we start playing with the interest curve (i.e. evolution of interest rate over time).
We would have to make assumptions as to what would be the best rate at different points in time based on price and market cap, to ensure there is enough incentive for staking over time.

This would probably be tied to if, when, or how fast we think cryptos would get wide acceptance. The sad truth is that we have no clue... So our assumptions would likely become obsolete/wrong over time. And at that point what do we do? Change the parameters? That'd be acting just like a central bank. And no offense, but i would still trust more a central bank than a bunch of kids playing in the crypto sphere...

Over the long term, a system like NXT would work best as no new coins are created, leading to 0 inflation and making it appropriate both for everyday use and value storage. But this requires high transaction volumes to be secure (i.e. provide enough incentive for staking as reward is based exclusively on transaction fees). This is much better than constant low inflation rate as in the context of business use, any inflation is a problem.

Don't know if it helps. At lease for now 50% is good, and any change will need to be very carefully thought through...

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Palmdetroit
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PHS 50% PoS - Stop mining start minting

 April 22, 2015, 08:48:39 AMLast edit: April 28, 2015, 06:13:49 PM by Palmdetroit

If your addy starts with 9r9RyRQzQ Please fix time on PC and update to newer version, if you haven't, will also put out patch and bootstrap this weekend, thanks!

Also explorer has been fixed.

And Sorros , yep agree, store of value I mentioned was only in nominal terms, and it will!

Update : New bootstrap

Make sure to delete peers.dat if you had connection issues (and follow instructions in zip to sync up fast)

PD

sorrros
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 April 29, 2015, 08:30:31 AM

Thanks Palm. That worked!

Note that I had to erase all in the roaming folder (not just peers.dat, and of course except the wallet) to re-download the blockchain..

Looking forward to catch-up with you on what's next

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Muzzargh
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 May 21, 2015, 07:09:23 AM

What's the difference between a blue symbol and an orange symbol in the recent transactions list?
alibabacool
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 May 26, 2015, 02:11:57 PM

What's the difference between a blue symbol and an orange symbol in the recent transactions list?
I think it depends on amount of transaction.
ryanb
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 May 26, 2015, 09:59:25 PM

Sorry if this has been asked but is there a stake limit on a block?
or it could be any amount?

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Palmdetroit
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PHS 50% PoS - Stop mining start minting

 May 27, 2015, 02:06:43 AM

Sorry if this has been asked but is there a stake limit on a block?
or it could be any amount?

Originally when PHS had PoW they had Bonus blocks which used different images for mined amounts, when we went PoS only, I just changed them to lower values depending on stake amount, so now they just depend on amount staked.

Palmdetroit
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PHS 50% PoS - Stop mining start minting

 May 27, 2015, 02:09:14 AM

Sorry if this has been asked but is there a stake limit on a block?
or it could be any amount?

NP,

there is no limit atm, but this will likely change in the future when inflation is perceived too large.

PD

Also Hi everyone I'm still putting time in PHS when possible and updated git with some improvements recently, with next batch of work I will put out a new EXE.

Thanks.

Muzzargh
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 May 31, 2015, 07:08:32 AM

What's the difference between a blue symbol and an orange symbol in the recent transactions list?
I think it depends on amount of transaction.

Hmmm, I have transactions higher and lower than this one (it's 26 PHS), it's the only blue one I have.
rdcpsi
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 May 31, 2015, 03:00:38 PM

Is anyone maintaining http://phs.blockx.info/  ... seems to have been stuck for over a month now... again.
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