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Author Topic: [ANN] The world's first handheld Bitcoin device, the Ellet!  (Read 42462 times)
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June 19, 2012, 12:10:48 AM
 #261

Mesh networking isn't implausible at all, hams do it constantly.  That is exactly what a packet TNC does.  The real question is can they do it in such a small device and with such small power requirements, but 100 meters is nothing for a modern digital mode even at low power levels, so I don't consider that unrealistic either.  In fact, I'm hoping that they are under stating the effective range, because 100 meters isn't practical except in some pretty dense urban areas.  I'd say the bear minimum effective ranges start at 300meters.  And nor is communications sans (commerical) infrastructure implausible, for that is the very nature of mesh networking anyway.
Packet TNCs are set up at fixed locations and use manually-configured routing though, right? That's not mesh networking in the sense we're talking about here. The hard part of this kind of mesh networking (I believe the technical term is "mobile ad-hoc networking") is dynamically-updated routing between a bunch of small moving devices, all of which has too little memory and compute power and bandwidth to store a full global routing table. Normal mesh networking is similar but has stationary nodes that are typically more powerful.

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June 19, 2012, 12:49:04 AM
 #262

Subscribing to see what all the craze is about Cheesy
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June 19, 2012, 01:01:31 AM
 #263

Mesh networking isn't implausible at all, hams do it constantly.  That is exactly what a packet TNC does.  The real question is can they do it in such a small device and with such small power requirements, but 100 meters is nothing for a modern digital mode even at low power levels, so I don't consider that unrealistic either.  In fact, I'm hoping that they are under stating the effective range, because 100 meters isn't practical except in some pretty dense urban areas.  I'd say the bear minimum effective ranges start at 300meters.  And nor is communications sans (commerical) infrastructure implausible, for that is the very nature of mesh networking anyway.
Packet TNCs are set up at fixed locations and use manually-configured routing though, right?


AX25 networking protocol would largely be manually configured, but that's no longer a requirement.  They were never really intended to be fixed.  Although more modern modes don't call themselves packet radio and don't use hardware TNC and don't use AX25 protocol, they have their basis in packet.   

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 That's not mesh networking in the sense we're talking about here. The hard part of this kind of mesh networking (I believe the technical term is "mobile ad-hoc networking") is dynamically-updated routing between a bunch of small moving devices, all of which has too little memory and compute power and bandwidth to store a full global routing table. Normal mesh networking is similar but has stationary nodes that are typically more powerful.

A dynamicly updated routing table, or a routing table at all, is not a likely condition of this kind of network.  Sensor style networks use passive monitoring to detect reachable peers on the fly, and it's a completely different model than a network that is trying to emulate the mass data transfer capabilities of a wired network.  A bitcoin transaction doesn't need to be routed, it simply needs to be broadcast.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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June 19, 2012, 01:03:33 AM
 #264

UPDATE: I have a video now, but it's not to my liking. I'm going to have the engineer take another. (Basically the video doesn't work hard enough to prove that the device is sending/receiving bitcoins) I'd rather be trolled for being a bit late (I'm used to that with so many projects running simultaneously) than more idiots spreading FUD about it being fake. Updated title to reflect the late status.
I know a man buying time when I see one. What's on your heart, Matthew?
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June 19, 2012, 06:48:24 AM
 #265

UPDATE: I have a video now, but it's not to my liking. I'm going to have the engineer take another. (Basically the video doesn't work hard enough to prove that the device is sending/receiving bitcoins) I'd rather be trolled for being a bit late (I'm used to that with so many projects running simultaneously) than more idiots spreading FUD about it being fake. Updated title to reflect the late status.
I know a man buying time when I see one. What's on your heart, Matthew?
i know! Matthew misses Atlas and the attention he got from him. Therefor he is now trying to get more attention by making up some nonexistent bitcoin device, to impress the community.

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June 19, 2012, 08:03:32 AM
 #266

Not as a watch. Do you think women will like your "male" looking watch?

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June 19, 2012, 12:53:21 PM
 #267

Psion
A dynamicly updated routing table, or a routing table at all, is not a likely condition of this kind of network.  Sensor style networks use passive monitoring to detect reachable peers on the fly, and it's a completely different model than a network that is trying to emulate the mass data transfer capabilities of a wired network.  A bitcoin transaction doesn't need to be routed, it simply needs to be broadcast.
Well, you can use flooding but that doesn't scale either. Imagine if, every time someone in New York City made a transaction or sent a message, every single tiny, battery-powered, low-bandwidth node in the city had to wake up and forward it on. You'd run out of bandwidth and kill your battery life with even small amounts of traffic.

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June 19, 2012, 01:01:29 PM
 #268

Psion
A dynamicly updated routing table, or a routing table at all, is not a likely condition of this kind of network.  Sensor style networks use passive monitoring to detect reachable peers on the fly, and it's a completely different model than a network that is trying to emulate the mass data transfer capabilities of a wired network.  A bitcoin transaction doesn't need to be routed, it simply needs to be broadcast.
Well, you can use flooding but that doesn't scale either. Imagine if, every time someone in New York City made a transaction or sent a message, every single tiny, battery-powered, low-bandwidth node in the city had to wake up and forward it on. You'd run out of bandwidth and kill your battery life with even small amounts of traffic.

Except thats not what happens either. Please do a bit of research; this topic has been covered quite well already on this forum.  Keywords "Dash7" "Jabber" and "XMPP" should help.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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June 20, 2012, 12:46:59 AM
 #269

http://i.imgur.com/H9tFP.jpg I re uploaded it here since that other site sucked. I have two questions though. Is this open source, will anyone be able to develop applications for this? Secondly, is it real?

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June 20, 2012, 03:01:54 AM
 #270

Im sooo sad about this...

This is sorely missing the boat..

No one is throwing out their wallets, or getting rid of their purses..

Its ANOTHER device people dont need, a luxury, specially when everyone NEEDS a cell phone and can have a wallet on it..

And most men will still carry a wallet..   Im sad to say, a card I can fit into my wallet will win everytime.. 

Matthew..  What are you thinking! Sad

Im sooooooo heartbroken this is the design your going for..    Cry

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June 20, 2012, 03:51:18 PM
 #271

Except thats not what happens either. Please do a bit of research; this topic has been covered quite well already on this forum.  Keywords "Dash7" "Jabber" and "XMPP" should help.
Dash7 apparently solves the problem by not routing data any further than 2 hops. So if you're more than 2 hops in the mesh away from the node you're trying to communicate with, you can't send or receive messages to it. Jabber/XMPP is a client-server protocol that assumes all servers are directly reachable by all other servers.

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June 20, 2012, 09:43:37 PM
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Except thats not what happens either. Please do a bit of research; this topic has been covered quite well already on this forum.  Keywords "Dash7" "Jabber" and "XMPP" should help.
Dash7 apparently solves the problem by not routing data any further than 2 hops. So if you're more than 2 hops in the mesh away from the node you're trying to communicate with, you can't send or receive messages to it. Jabber/XMPP is a client-server protocol that assumes all servers are directly reachable by all other servers.

Two hops is the default, but there is no real limit.  The default hop can be overriden by software.  Also, these devices are location aware by nature, so vector routing is possible.  Jabber would have to be altered to fit the network model, as I mentioned in the other threads.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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June 21, 2012, 02:54:22 AM
 #273

I wonder if it has a silent (airplane mode) that vibrates when funds are received.

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June 21, 2012, 03:05:19 AM
 #274

I wonder if it has a silent (airplane mode) that vibrates when funds are received.

'airplane mode' isn't about silence, it's about turning off all comms, so it wouldn't know funds are received.

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June 21, 2012, 03:06:46 AM
 #275

No way a device with no battery could power a vibrating motor, and no way such a motor could fit into such a thin device and still work effectively. I'm guessing this thing runs on a new design of flat supercapacitor, instead of traditional battery technology.

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June 21, 2012, 04:39:23 AM
 #276

No way a device with no battery could power a vibrating motor, and no way such a motor could fit into such a thin device and still work effectively. I'm guessing this thing runs on a new design of flat supercapacitor, instead of traditional battery technology.
That'd be a very interesting (novel?) choice... I'm don't think they've advanced enough for this type of application. They're expensive, don't discharge at a consistent voltage, and are allegedly prone to sparking easily (the device would possibly need to be air-tight, or risk injuring people, perhaps exploderating gas stations). They charge rapidly and you'd never need to replace it (rather, the supercapacitor will not degrade like a normal battery -- you can recharge it over and over without losing capacity), but a cutting-edge supercapacitor that size would last maybe a minute or two with wireless communication enabled, and because voltage output under load decreases rapidly with discharge (unlike with conventional batteries), much of the battery's capacity would be unusable due to the device requiring a relatively high amount of electricity output. (I don't keep up with supercapacitor news, though -- would be interested in some education)

(sub) ETA: Wait -- where is it said that the device has no battery? (ETA2: For some cool, obscure energy storage, how 'bout LiFePO4? Can be recharged many, many times without degradation [not in the same ballpark as supercapacitors, but relative to Li-Ion, dramatically superior cycle life], has a voltage output plateau unlike supercapacitors, has a ridiculously long calendar life, and is relatively safe.)

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June 21, 2012, 05:34:19 AM
 #277

No way a device with no battery could power a vibrating motor, and no way such a motor could fit into such a thin device and still work effectively. I'm guessing this thing runs on a new design of flat supercapacitor, instead of traditional battery technology.
Could be a piezo speaker, doesn't need to be a motor. With dolphinclick.wav

For Bitcoin to be a true global currency the value of BTC needs always to rise.
If BTC became the global currency & money supply = 100 Trillion then ⊅1.00 BTC = $4,761,904.76.
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June 21, 2012, 06:19:24 AM
 #278

I re uploaded it here since that other site sucked.
I already have a much better render available for you here, although please keep in mind this is not the design we are actually going for in the production prototype, just the 3rd pre-production prototype that you will see in a future video demonstration.

http://i.imgur.com/STqwp.jpg


I have two questions though. Is this open source,
I've already answered this upstream. Many of the major components are open source, yes.

will anyone be able to develop applications for this?
That's still being decided. There is a balance of security versus functionality of course and if security weighs heavier, we may not allow outside application development. That said, we plan on having addons available to Ellet owners to add new currencies/payment methods and update existing ones securely.

Not as a watch. Do you think women will like your "male" looking watch?
It's not a watch. It has a watch band. It can be worn on your belt, on a watch, in your pocket, on your pocket, in your hand, it doesn't really matter and it's up to you how you carry it. As for women not using it because of the way it looks...why did you think there would only be one model?  Kiss

i know! Matthew misses Atlas and the attention he got from him.
I wish Atlas would go away long enough to be missed. He spams reddit daily with self important opinionated garbage.

No one is throwing out their wallets, or getting rid of their purses..
They said the same thing about the home phone, the desktop, etc. You don't need everyone in the world to do something, you just need a strong minority.

Its ANOTHER device people dont need, a luxury, specially when everyone NEEDS a cell phone and can have a wallet on it..
The featureset planned for Ellet cannot be done by any mobile phone currently on the market or even any phone I am aware of in the near future.

And most men will still carry a wallet..   Im sad to say, a card I can fit into my wallet will win everytime..  
Matthew..  What are you thinking! Sad
Im sooooooo heartbroken this is the design your going for..    Cry
Thank you for your feedback, but there is a solution for your concerns-- don't buy one Wink

No way a device with no battery could power a vibrating motor, and no way such a motor could fit into such a thin device and still work effectively. I'm guessing this thing runs on a new design of flat supercapacitor, instead of traditional battery technology.
The Ellet uses a battery and is not a fictitious "project of the future" that paid representatives cannot get their stories straight about the functionality of. It uses a battery. It needs charging like everything else in reality. It also uses standard protocols and does not try to reinvent the wheel of dozens of years of progress "because bitcoin".

I wonder if it has a silent (airplane mode) that vibrates when funds are received.

This was the intention, yes.

A little update for everyone: If anyone remembers the magazine's beginning, they know that it was a trying experience for us putting the perfect team together (I actually fired quite a few people in the beginning just to bring the professional team I demanded). Well, this project is not shy of my perfectionism either and I've had to let an assistant engineer go. That said, he was replaced with two professional electronic engineers and they are working under command of my project manager, manufacturing agent and myself directly.

I had originally intended to show the 2nd prototype functioning, but I am now of the belief that there is absolutely no point to showing a larger device prototype sending bitcoins (what's special about that? everyone already has a mobile phone that can do that) and decided to hold off on the video presentation until this 3rd prototype is complete. I'm convinced that anyone watching that video will soil themselves.

We've moved our company to the UK where we are now working on the 3rd and final pre-manufacturing prototype. This prototype will be our proving ground for all the features that we haven't yet announced, and a way to polish up the features that we already have announced. Security is obviously of the utmost priority as this device will be consolidating numerous payment accounts into a single usable interface, and I encourage everyone to speak up as to their concerns with certain aspects of announced functionality so that we can properly respond.

A world renowned (I consider to be on of the top 5 in the world) device designer is working on the production prototype model and casing, and I am busy with our own in-house team working daily to bring more useful functions to the device without bloating it. Since our investors are particular about the style in which we announce things, this will be the last unofficial announcement (I am happy to discuss whenever possible) on the forums and we will be announcing further developments through the Bitcoin Magazine and digital press releases.

Thank you everyone for your initial interest and it is my pleasure to continue to bring functioning and high quality products to the Bitcoin community.

Cheers!

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June 21, 2012, 06:28:41 AM
 #279

I'm convinced that anyone watching that video will soil themselves.

This statement should be in the press release. I want to hear CNN anchors say "Creators of the device insist that anyone who sees the gadget in action will, quote, "totally fucking shit themselves" unquote. We will have more on this story as it develops."

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June 21, 2012, 12:41:47 PM
 #280

No way a device with no battery could power a vibrating motor, and no way such a motor could fit into such a thin device and still work effectively. I'm guessing this thing runs on a new design of flat supercapacitor, instead of traditional battery technology.
The Ellet uses a battery and is not a fictitious "project of the future" that paid representatives cannot get their stories straight about the functionality of. It uses a battery. It needs charging like everything else in reality. It also uses standard protocols and does not try to reinvent the wheel of dozens of years of progress "because bitcoin".
Sorry! I thought I was in the bitcoincard thread when I said that.

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