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Author Topic: [ANN] The world's first handheld Bitcoin device, the Ellet!  (Read 42514 times)
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June 11, 2012, 04:09:58 PM
 #161

Officially, It wouldn't affect the Ellet at all as the Ellet is intended to be a functional payment device capable of handling -all- relevant payment methods, utilize the infinite amount of existing infrastructure out there, and provide a marketable form factor and feature set that will bring non-bitcoiners into Bitcoin. Bitcoincard seems to be a nerds toy (no offense) with little to no chance of any kind of adoption in a real world environment. Also, given it's supposed form factor, it is more in competition with Casascius coins than the Ellet.

I can agree that your devices don't seem to be in quite the same market, but you do appear to be threatened by their claims.
Not threatened, annoyed by vaporware. Call it overjoy that made me want to announce without a photo, but anyone trying to convince the baker that he isn't baking a cake just because they aren't eating it yet is only going to receive puzzled looks from the baker. If however that baker claims he is baking a cake larger than the oven itself, then you can make some claims and ask some questions (which is what I've been doing to the bitcoincard).

would the Ellet be able to talk the Bitcoincard protocol.  That's the real question.
I don't see how anything standard would be able to talk to that non-standard device. I guess we could go out of our way to add specific hardware to our device that would allow it to talk to bitcoincard, but I don't see any company would do that that didn't have a contract directly with the other company. Put in other words, do iPhones have built in receivers for ham radio?


Technically, yes they do.  A standard wifi chip is capable of transmitting & receiving in the nearby ham band (I beleive 70cm band IIRC) and use of these features require a ham callsign to be transmitted with the SSID.  There are two channels available, and are traditionally called Zero and -1, since they are on that side of the unlicensed wifi band.  Unlockling these capabilities, at a minumum requires rooting your phone, though.  In the ham world, this is commonly called the 'Hinternet'.  Google is your friend.

Quote
From my perspectives, it's the Ellet that is vaporware.  At a minimum, the Bitcoincard guys have working test models.
You believe this?

I believe that if it's a hoax, it's an elaborate one.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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June 11, 2012, 04:39:51 PM
 #162

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would the Ellet be able to talk the Bitcoincard protocol.  That's the real question.
I don't see how anything standard would be able to talk to that non-standard device. I guess we could go out of our way to add specific hardware to our device that would allow it to talk to bitcoincard, but I don't see any company would do that that didn't have a contract directly with the other company. Put in other words, do iPhones have built in receivers for ham radio?


Technically, yes they do.  A standard wifi chip is capable of transmitting & receiving in the nearby ham band (I beleive 70cm band IIRC) and use of these features require a ham callsign to be transmitted with the SSID.  There are two channels available, and are traditionally called Zero and -1, since they are on that side of the unlicensed wifi band.  Unlockling these capabilities, at a minumum requires rooting your phone, though.  In the ham world, this is commonly called the 'Hinternet'.  Google is your friend.
I have found nothing on google about "iphone" and "hinternet" Sad

Also, the FCC doesn't allow encryption.  I know the standard bitcoin protocol doesn't use encryption, but does the ellet's use of the electrum protocol?

Now I really want to get out my HAM equipment.

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June 11, 2012, 06:17:25 PM
 #163

'Ellet' is kind of wonky.
Share, 'share.io'
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PENID - Personal Electronic Network Input/Output Device
PEBc - Prounounced 'peb-see' is the Personal Electronic Bitcoin Client
EMTY - Electronic Money Transaction Yeller
PEANT - Prounounced 'pee-nut' Personal Electronic Accounting with Network Transactions
DICC - Digital Interactive Currency Client 'How big is your DICC?' 'Even the Queen has a DICC.' 'Do you have a savings? No, I've been pissing it away.' 'Did you send the money? It's coming.'

How will the device fair when sloshing around in my pocket with the rest of my change?

For Bitcoin to be a true global currency the value of BTC needs always to rise.
If BTC became the global currency & money supply = 100 Trillion then ⊅1.00 BTC = $4,761,904.76.
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June 11, 2012, 06:22:26 PM
 #164

Quote
Quote
would the Ellet be able to talk the Bitcoincard protocol.  That's the real question.
I don't see how anything standard would be able to talk to that non-standard device. I guess we could go out of our way to add specific hardware to our device that would allow it to talk to bitcoincard, but I don't see any company would do that that didn't have a contract directly with the other company. Put in other words, do iPhones have built in receivers for ham radio?


Technically, yes they do.  A standard wifi chip is capable of transmitting & receiving in the nearby ham band (I beleive 70cm band IIRC) and use of these features require a ham callsign to be transmitted with the SSID.  There are two channels available, and are traditionally called Zero and -1, since they are on that side of the unlicensed wifi band.  Unlockling these capabilities, at a minumum requires rooting your phone, though.  In the ham world, this is commonly called the 'Hinternet'.  Google is your friend.
I have found nothing on google about "iphone" and "hinternet" Sad

Also, the FCC doesn't allow encryption.  I know the standard bitcoin protocol doesn't use encryption, but does the ellet's use of the electrum protocol?

Now I really want to get out my HAM equipment.

I'm interested in see facts about the FCC not allowing encryption.
Also How would they prove the "static" they are hearing is encrypted code awaiting to be decrypted?
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June 11, 2012, 06:26:43 PM
 #165

Quote
Quote
would the Ellet be able to talk the Bitcoincard protocol.  That's the real question.
I don't see how anything standard would be able to talk to that non-standard device. I guess we could go out of our way to add specific hardware to our device that would allow it to talk to bitcoincard, but I don't see any company would do that that didn't have a contract directly with the other company. Put in other words, do iPhones have built in receivers for ham radio?


Technically, yes they do.  A standard wifi chip is capable of transmitting & receiving in the nearby ham band (I beleive 70cm band IIRC) and use of these features require a ham callsign to be transmitted with the SSID.  There are two channels available, and are traditionally called Zero and -1, since they are on that side of the unlicensed wifi band.  Unlockling these capabilities, at a minumum requires rooting your phone, though.  In the ham world, this is commonly called the 'Hinternet'.  Google is your friend.
I have found nothing on google about "iphone" and "hinternet" Sad

Also, the FCC doesn't allow encryption.  I know the standard bitcoin protocol doesn't use encryption, but does the ellet's use of the electrum protocol?

Now I really want to get out my HAM equipment.

I'm interested in see facts about the FCC not allowing encryption.
Also How would they prove the "static" they are hearing is encrypted code awaiting to be decrypted?
i think you would still be able to hear 1&0's. it would not be static.

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves and wiser people so full of doubts." -Bertrand Russell
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June 11, 2012, 06:32:29 PM
 #166

Quote
Quote
would the Ellet be able to talk the Bitcoincard protocol.  That's the real question.
I don't see how anything standard would be able to talk to that non-standard device. I guess we could go out of our way to add specific hardware to our device that would allow it to talk to bitcoincard, but I don't see any company would do that that didn't have a contract directly with the other company. Put in other words, do iPhones have built in receivers for ham radio?


Technically, yes they do.  A standard wifi chip is capable of transmitting & receiving in the nearby ham band (I beleive 70cm band IIRC) and use of these features require a ham callsign to be transmitted with the SSID.  There are two channels available, and are traditionally called Zero and -1, since they are on that side of the unlicensed wifi band.  Unlockling these capabilities, at a minumum requires rooting your phone, though.  In the ham world, this is commonly called the 'Hinternet'.  Google is your friend.
I have found nothing on google about "iphone" and "hinternet" Sad

Also, the FCC doesn't allow encryption.  I know the standard bitcoin protocol doesn't use encryption, but does the ellet's use of the electrum protocol?

Now I really want to get out my HAM equipment.

I'm interested in see facts about the FCC not allowing encryption.
Also How would they prove the "static" they are hearing is encrypted code awaiting to be decrypted?
i think you would still be able to hear 1&0's. it would not be static.

Depends if you sent the values in analog or digital format Wink
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June 11, 2012, 06:36:52 PM
 #167

Quote
Quote
would the Ellet be able to talk the Bitcoincard protocol.  That's the real question.
I don't see how anything standard would be able to talk to that non-standard device. I guess we could go out of our way to add specific hardware to our device that would allow it to talk to bitcoincard, but I don't see any company would do that that didn't have a contract directly with the other company. Put in other words, do iPhones have built in receivers for ham radio?


Technically, yes they do.  A standard wifi chip is capable of transmitting & receiving in the nearby ham band (I beleive 70cm band IIRC) and use of these features require a ham callsign to be transmitted with the SSID.  There are two channels available, and are traditionally called Zero and -1, since they are on that side of the unlicensed wifi band.  Unlockling these capabilities, at a minumum requires rooting your phone, though.  In the ham world, this is commonly called the 'Hinternet'.  Google is your friend.
I have found nothing on google about "iphone" and "hinternet" Sad

Also, the FCC doesn't allow encryption.  I know the standard bitcoin protocol doesn't use encryption, but does the ellet's use of the electrum protocol?

Now I really want to get out my HAM equipment.

I'm interested in see facts about the FCC not allowing encryption.
Also How would they prove the "static" they are hearing is encrypted code awaiting to be decrypted?
i think you would still be able to hear 1&0's. it would not be static.

Depends if you sent the values in analog or digital format Wink
true, but not if its encrypted. encrypted means digital.
if your gonna obfuscate analog signals, its called scrambling. Wink

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves and wiser people so full of doubts." -Bertrand Russell
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June 11, 2012, 06:53:20 PM
 #168

Quote
Quote
would the Ellet be able to talk the Bitcoincard protocol.  That's the real question.
I don't see how anything standard would be able to talk to that non-standard device. I guess we could go out of our way to add specific hardware to our device that would allow it to talk to bitcoincard, but I don't see any company would do that that didn't have a contract directly with the other company. Put in other words, do iPhones have built in receivers for ham radio?


Technically, yes they do.  A standard wifi chip is capable of transmitting & receiving in the nearby ham band (I beleive 70cm band IIRC) and use of these features require a ham callsign to be transmitted with the SSID.  There are two channels available, and are traditionally called Zero and -1, since they are on that side of the unlicensed wifi band.  Unlockling these capabilities, at a minumum requires rooting your phone, though.  In the ham world, this is commonly called the 'Hinternet'.  Google is your friend.
I have found nothing on google about "iphone" and "hinternet" Sad

Also, the FCC doesn't allow encryption.  I know the standard bitcoin protocol doesn't use encryption, but does the ellet's use of the electrum protocol?

Now I really want to get out my HAM equipment.

I'm interested in see facts about the FCC not allowing encryption.
Also How would they prove the "static" they are hearing is encrypted code awaiting to be decrypted?
i think you would still be able to hear 1&0's. it would not be static.

Depends if you sent the values in analog or digital format Wink
true, but not if its encrypted. encrypted means digital.
if your gonna obfuscate analog signals, its called scrambling. Wink
I was under the impression scrambling is just a measure to prevent anyone from just "listening in" by turning on their ham radio--I'm talking about the following

Digital Represented values are encrypted into a Digital format by a key the receiver already knows.
The digital encrypted message is converted into analog values that are represented by a key table that the receiver already knows.
Now the sender broadcasts the message in analog(sound/light spectrum) but it isn't represented with two values, instead it is represented by the whole analog spectrum.
The receiver decodes the analog signal with a key table... Then decrypts the signal into digital represented values.

Im not sure what my "theory" would make the broadcast sound like to a listener but at least it doesn't sound like off and on ticks and thus the FCC would get a signal but it would be static... so the FCC could prove a signal is coming from somewhere but not know why they are broadcasting static Tongue (of course im still assuming my broadcast would sound like static or weird noises of some sort... makes me want to try it out...)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrambler
Wikipedia gives me the impression scrambling is just packets of analog signals moved in different positions in the timeline where the reciever has a decoder that buffers packets and then puts them in the correct order for play back.

I'm interested in your opinion because you seem to know what your talking about.
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June 11, 2012, 07:08:32 PM
 #169


I was under the impression scrambling is just a measure to prevent anyone from just "listening in" by turning on their ham radio--I'm talking about the following

Digital Represented values are encrypted into a Digital format by a key the receiver already knows.
The digital encrypted message is converted into analog values that are represented by a key table that the receiver already knows.
Now the sender broadcasts the message in analog(sound/light spectrum) but it isn't represented with two values, instead it is represented by the whole analog spectrum.
The receiver decodes the analog signal with a key table... Then decrypts the signal into digital represented values.

Im not sure what my "theory" would make the broadcast sound like to a listener but at least it doesn't sound like off and on ticks and thus the FCC would get a signal but it would be static... so the FCC could prove a signal is coming from somewhere but not know why they are broadcasting static Tongue (of course im still assuming my broadcast would sound like static or weird noises of some sort... makes me want to try it out...)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrambler
Wikipedia gives me the impression scrambling is just packets of analog signals moved in different positions in the timeline where the reciever has a decoder that buffers packets and then puts them in the correct order for play back.

I'm interested in your opinion because you seem to know what your talking about.
i don't think you can do that losslessly. there needs to be some kind of binary system in it, so you can make it digital again.

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves and wiser people so full of doubts." -Bertrand Russell
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June 11, 2012, 07:32:21 PM
 #170

Very cool idea!  We're looking forward to trying one out.  Sorry if this has already been covered, but when do you expect you'll be able to deliver these?
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June 11, 2012, 07:41:00 PM
 #171

I'm just going to briefly jump into this thread to correct some misinformation about amateur radio (ham radio):

1) the international governing organisation is IARU; not FCC

2) FCC is an obsession of the American radio amateurs. The reason for this is that historically most American hams held radio-operator positions in some military service. Most importantly they bring with them paranoia and indoctrination prevalent in the American military.

3) It is a violation of the amateur radio rules to transmit radio signals that require some secret to interpret.

4) Bitcoin uses cryptography for signatures, not for encryption. All information required to understand the transmissions is public.

5) Amateur radio actively encourages experimentation with the following disclaimers:

5a) don't interfere with other radio users
5b) identify your transmission in a way that can be discerned by ear by an ordinarily skilled radio operator using oridinary equipment
5c) publish all the technical information required to demodulate your experimental transmissions
5d) maintain (for about a year) the original text,voice,video,whatever used in your experimental transmissions and be ready to submit them to the licensing authorities
5e) there are additional restrictions on use of high power or wideband transmitters.

The rule 5b) means that every about an hour you have to transmit your callsign using Morse code or one of the classical audio modulations. In case of digital radio the Morse code doesn't have to be transmitted using unmodulated carrier (CW). It is sufficient to alter the parameters of your digital modulation in such a way that when listened on the audio the operator can by ear discern those changes and understand them as Morse code.

6) Amateur radio clearly prohibits for profit broadcasting and advertising. This rule is frequently misunderstood to prohibit any commerce or any monetary exchange. It isn't against the rules to facilitate person to person exchanges of value.

7) Politeness and common courtesy gets you far more in amateur radio than the strict obeyance of the rules and regulations.

Please comment, critique, criticize or ridicule BIP 2112: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=54382.0
Long-term mining prognosis: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=91101.0
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June 11, 2012, 08:03:03 PM
 #172


I was under the impression scrambling is just a measure to prevent anyone from just "listening in" by turning on their ham radio--I'm talking about the following

Digital Represented values are encrypted into a Digital format by a key the receiver already knows.
The digital encrypted message is converted into analog values that are represented by a key table that the receiver already knows.
Now the sender broadcasts the message in analog(sound/light spectrum) but it isn't represented with two values, instead it is represented by the whole analog spectrum.
The receiver decodes the analog signal with a key table... Then decrypts the signal into digital represented values.

Im not sure what my "theory" would make the broadcast sound like to a listener but at least it doesn't sound like off and on ticks and thus the FCC would get a signal but it would be static... so the FCC could prove a signal is coming from somewhere but not know why they are broadcasting static Tongue (of course im still assuming my broadcast would sound like static or weird noises of some sort... makes me want to try it out...)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrambler
Wikipedia gives me the impression scrambling is just packets of analog signals moved in different positions in the timeline where the reciever has a decoder that buffers packets and then puts them in the correct order for play back.

I'm interested in your opinion because you seem to know what your talking about.
i don't think you can do that losslessly. there needs to be some kind of binary system in it, so you can make it digital again.

You just need to quantize it, not necessarily binary.  For example you could take each byte of binary data, and map it onto an analog signal.  The low end of the signal would be 0 and the high end would be 255.  Of course, you will need redundant transmission and error correction because your analog signal will get distorted by noise.  The more bits you map to each analog value, the more problems you will have with errors.

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
While no idea is perfect, some ideas are useful.
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June 11, 2012, 08:07:04 PM
 #173


I was under the impression scrambling is just a measure to prevent anyone from just "listening in" by turning on their ham radio--I'm talking about the following

Digital Represented values are encrypted into a Digital format by a key the receiver already knows.
The digital encrypted message is converted into analog values that are represented by a key table that the receiver already knows.
Now the sender broadcasts the message in analog(sound/light spectrum) but it isn't represented with two values, instead it is represented by the whole analog spectrum.
The receiver decodes the analog signal with a key table... Then decrypts the signal into digital represented values.

Im not sure what my "theory" would make the broadcast sound like to a listener but at least it doesn't sound like off and on ticks and thus the FCC would get a signal but it would be static... so the FCC could prove a signal is coming from somewhere but not know why they are broadcasting static Tongue (of course im still assuming my broadcast would sound like static or weird noises of some sort... makes me want to try it out...)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrambler
Wikipedia gives me the impression scrambling is just packets of analog signals moved in different positions in the timeline where the reciever has a decoder that buffers packets and then puts them in the correct order for play back.

I'm interested in your opinion because you seem to know what your talking about.
i don't think you can do that losslessly. there needs to be some kind of binary system in it, so you can make it digital again.

You just need to quantize it, not necessarily binary.  For example you could take each byte of binary data, and map it onto an analog signal.  The low end of the signal would be 0 and the high end would be 255.  Of course, you will need redundant transmission and error correction because your analog signal will get distorted by noise.  The more bits you map to each analog value, the more problems you will have with errors.
exactly what i was talking about. i just could not put it into words. would such signal be detectable because of the "hops", like there is only 34 and 35 but not 34,5. would it not leave a empty "space" between 34 and 35?

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves and wiser people so full of doubts." -Bertrand Russell
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June 11, 2012, 08:10:14 PM
 #174

Ill be watching this, good work.

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June 11, 2012, 08:15:31 PM
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Most excellent, Matthew. 

Will it come with horse wallpaper?
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June 11, 2012, 08:18:44 PM
 #176


I was under the impression scrambling is just a measure to prevent anyone from just "listening in" by turning on their ham radio--I'm talking about the following

Digital Represented values are encrypted into a Digital format by a key the receiver already knows.
The digital encrypted message is converted into analog values that are represented by a key table that the receiver already knows.
Now the sender broadcasts the message in analog(sound/light spectrum) but it isn't represented with two values, instead it is represented by the whole analog spectrum.
The receiver decodes the analog signal with a key table... Then decrypts the signal into digital represented values.

Im not sure what my "theory" would make the broadcast sound like to a listener but at least it doesn't sound like off and on ticks and thus the FCC would get a signal but it would be static... so the FCC could prove a signal is coming from somewhere but not know why they are broadcasting static Tongue (of course im still assuming my broadcast would sound like static or weird noises of some sort... makes me want to try it out...)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrambler
Wikipedia gives me the impression scrambling is just packets of analog signals moved in different positions in the timeline where the reciever has a decoder that buffers packets and then puts them in the correct order for play back.

I'm interested in your opinion because you seem to know what your talking about.
i don't think you can do that losslessly. there needs to be some kind of binary system in it, so you can make it digital again.

You just need to quantize it, not necessarily binary.  For example you could take each byte of binary data, and map it onto an analog signal.  The low end of the signal would be 0 and the high end would be 255.  Of course, you will need redundant transmission and error correction because your analog signal will get distorted by noise.  The more bits you map to each analog value, the more problems you will have with errors.
exactly what i was talking about. i just could not put it into words. would such signal be detectable because of the "hops", like there is only 34 and 35 but not 34,5. would it not leave a empty "space" between 34 and 35?

You would have ranges where each value would be represented.  Say 34-35 represents 01101100 (arbitrary, don't try to figure it out).  You would have a tradeoff between accuracy and obfuscation.  If you broadcast 34.5 you'll have the best chance of falling in the proper range after your signal is corrupted by noise.  If your signal is strong enough and there is minimal noise, you can choose any random number in the range each time.  You could probably make it look a lot like analog noise if you tried hard enough, but you would have a tough time broadcasting over any distance.  Plus, the fact that your broadcasting noise would raise questions and it wouldn't be too hard to track down the transmitter to get those questions answered.

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
While no idea is perfect, some ideas are useful.
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June 11, 2012, 08:18:52 PM
 #177



Most excellent, Matthew. 

Will it come with horse wallpaper?

Don't put it past me to include easter eggs like that.

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June 11, 2012, 08:42:30 PM
 #178

watching. will be great to see how this + bitcoincard develops..
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June 11, 2012, 09:03:33 PM
 #179

 Plus, the fact that your broadcasting noise would raise questions and it wouldn't be too hard to track down the transmitter to get those questions answered.

And that’s where I get the affirmation that transmitting encrypted through ham radio data is a bust. Glad we talked this out guise.
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June 11, 2012, 10:15:03 PM
 #180

Ellet supports encrypted ham radio transactions with the iPhone CONFIRMED!

Bitcoin combines money, the wrongest thing in the world, with software, the easiest thing in the world to get wrong.
Visit www.thevenusproject.com and www.theZeitgeistMovement.com.
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