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Author Topic: [ANN] Freicoin: demurrage crypto-currency from the Occupy movement (crowdfund)  (Read 56362 times)
ripper234
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Ron Gross


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July 10, 2012, 07:58:05 AM
 #201

They're a poor store of value, so it just adds the extra overhead for me of converting them to Bitcoin.

Yeah but the payment processor takes care of that for the merchant. For the merchant it should be simply "do you want to accept the full range of currencies supported by the payment processor or tell the payment processor to refuse customers who certain currencies (and if so which supported currencies do you want the payment processor to reject?)

Basically you tell your payment processor how much of what currency you the merchant want for each item you are selling and as long as the payment processor gives you that what skin is it off your nose if they choose to accept cows or chickens or diamonds or lead or copper or gold or fiat or even solidcoins as long as you get the quantity you specified of the currency you specified?

-MarkM-


Fine, so in this low friction scenario the merchant has no incentive not to accept Freicoin because he can instantly convert it to BTC with almost no fees. What is the motivation for the user to pay using it? What is the kickstarting force?

Bitcoin has a network effect that translates into economic incentive to use/hoard it, plus real advantages over traditional payment options.

What is the benefit, to users, of Freicoin? The benefit should be stated as a local advantage of a single user that would drive him to acquire, use and hoard/save Freicoin over Bitcoin.

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July 10, 2012, 09:19:34 AM
 #202

They're a poor store of value, so it just adds the extra overhead for me of converting them to Bitcoin.

Yeah but the payment processor takes care of that for the merchant. For the merchant it should be simply "do you want to accept the full range of currencies supported by the payment processor or tell the payment processor to refuse customers who certain currencies (and if so which supported currencies do you want the payment processor to reject?)

Basically you tell your payment processor how much of what currency you the merchant want for each item you are selling and as long as the payment processor gives you that what skin is it off your nose if they choose to accept cows or chickens or diamonds or lead or copper or gold or fiat or even solidcoins as long as you get the quantity you specified of the currency you specified?

-MarkM-


Fine, so in this low friction scenario the merchant has no incentive not to accept Freicoin because he can instantly convert it to BTC with almost no fees. What is the motivation for the user to pay using it? What is the kickstarting force?

Bitcoin has a network effect that translates into economic incentive to use/hoard it, plus real advantages over traditional payment options.

What is the benefit, to users, of Freicoin? The benefit should be stated as a local advantage of a single user that would drive him to acquire, use and hoard/save Freicoin over Bitcoin.

I'll buy them as a speculator, because I expect their price to rise, the same reason why I own bitcoin.
The second reason is that they're easy to spend, just like bitcoins, much more convenient than fiat.
But you would say, why buy them INSTEAD of bitcoin?
Maybe ideology is needed for bootstrapping, the same happened with bitcoin.
After it has some value, merchants just don't have any reason not to accept them. And when they accept them and spend them directly for wares instead of using bitcoin as a proxy, they're turned into users.
Imagine I accept 100 fcn for a ware. I take 1 month to spend them, so I will pay (100 * 0.05)/ 12 = 0.416666 fcn on demurrage fees.
If I sell them directly for bitcoins when I get them, I may pay much more in fees and market spread. When the bitcoin base stops growing, you may pay the same or more in transaction fees. People will just try to minimize fees. If the don't need to have much liquidity for their business, freicoin can be cheaper for them.




2 different forms of free-money: Freicoin (free of basic interest because it's perishable), Mutual credit (no interest because it's abundant)
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July 10, 2012, 09:23:11 AM
 #203

Thanks for the feedback; I will add a FAQ entry.

WTF?
I mean...Where's the FAQ?

2 different forms of free-money: Freicoin (free of basic interest because it's perishable), Mutual credit (no interest because it's abundant)
ripper234
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July 10, 2012, 09:43:52 AM
 #204

I'll buy them as a speculator, because I expect their price to rise, the same reason why I own bitcoin.

I don't think this is a smart reason.

"I will buy it because it will rise because other will buy it because it will rise ... "

Yes, Bitcoin behaves very similarly to this, but Bitcoin has a clear advantage over its predecessors, while it seems Freicoin has no such advantage, and has to compete with a big market leader, and Freicoins "feature" over it is actually a deterrent to acquiring/hoarding it.

Well, good luck with it ... time will tell whether I'm right about it or not.

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July 10, 2012, 12:44:28 PM
 #205

I'll buy them as a speculator, because I expect their price to rise

Er... you'll speculate that their price will rise faster than they'll incur demurrage fees? Isn't the idea of Freicoin to discourage hoarding? Now you're saying that the only way it can take off is if early adopters hoard it?
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July 10, 2012, 02:23:48 PM
 #206

If Freicoin had been the first crypto-currency, it might have worked. In fact, I believe it would have attracted a very different crowd and attitude too. But as others have suggested in this thread and I'm sure I have at various points in the past, Freicoin isn't going to bring anything new enough to the table. Maybe when bitcoin collapses another 2 or 3 times people will be looking elsewhere. Freicoin is apparently going to still be based on many of the same principles but with the "losing money over time" feature, so I think that it is destined to be JACC* and not really a successor. You should be looking to beat bitcoin to a pulp with the awesomeness of your currency, not "well, Silvio Gesell says this.."

* just another crypto-currency

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July 10, 2012, 03:54:46 PM
 #207

As for the initial distribution problem, newly-generated freicoins will be sent to the miners. The problem won't be “how do you get people buy freicoins?” but rather “how will we give the miners something to buy?” Initial liquidity may be provided by someone like @jtimon investing based on perceived future value, but this would a relatively short-term stopgap measure until the merchant tools are in place and full circles of commerce can be established. Shortly thereafter market forces will stabalize the Freicoin price, and it ceases to be worthwhile investment to hold on to.

@Etlase2, this isn't a competing concept to bitcoin. In fact the two are completely complementary, and gain value from the existence of each other. I don't believe bitcoin will collapse, and I'm not looking to replace it. If successful we will change how people perceive and use bitcoin, but in a positive way.

@jtimon, there isn't a faq per se but there is a series of questions-and-answers at the end of the campaign proposal.

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July 10, 2012, 04:00:58 PM
 #208

In fact the two are completely complementary, and gain value from the existence of each other.

I still don't see why anyone would, say, exchange their bitcoins to freicoin in order to spend freicoin, when they could just spend their bitcoin instead. In what way does bitcoin gain value from freicoin's existence?
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July 10, 2012, 04:55:30 PM
 #209

If given that choice, of course spending bitcoins directly is the rational decision. But it's a false alternative. What if you have freicoins (because your business accepts them, your pay is in them, or whatever)? Then it makes sense to buy in freicoins instead of converting to bitcoins first. If you have fiat, the choice between the two is negligibly different.

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July 10, 2012, 06:03:12 PM
 #210

What if you have freicoins (because your business accepts them, your pay is in them, or whatever)? Then it makes sense to buy in freicoins instead of converting to bitcoins first. If you have fiat, the choice between the two is negligibly different.

Let's walk through this...

In the beginning, the only people who have Freicoin (or historically, Bitcoin) are the miners.

With Bitcoin, people had incentive to purchase them from the miners because Bitcoin has unique utility.

Freicoin does not offer any increased utility compared to Bitcoin, so what is the incentive for someone to purchase coins from miners?

If there is no incentive, then the only way for freicoins to begin circulation is for miners to spend them. I don't see this is as being a strong enough driver for adoption, but it is something. In order for this to be successful, there would have to be a significant number of merchants selling goods or services that miners wanted and accepting Bitcoin through a third party that could also allow them to transparently accept Freicoin. I just don't see it happening.
Etlase2
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July 10, 2012, 06:16:13 PM
 #211

@Etlase2, this isn't a competing concept to bitcoin. In fact the two are completely complementary,

And this is exactly why your currency will fail. You don't want to compete, you want to make a feeble bitcoin clone while testing demurrage. With the unbelievable number of problems with bitcoin, you choose to ignore them all except one and use a school of monetary thought to feebly add weight to your claims of what you think will happen.

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and gain value from the existence of each other. I don't believe bitcoin will collapse, and I'm not looking to replace it. If successful we will change how people perceive and use bitcoin, but in a positive way.

Yeah people will perceive bitcoin as more valuable and demand it more often than freicoin. The only time I see freicoin being useful is during a price shock period in bitcoin. But because freicoin is still using the same or similar distribution, it is going to have the same problem. All other things being equal, and all other things will be equal, bitcoin will either have a better return for taking it over freicoin, or they might be about equal but freicoin came second. The idea does not compete at all.

Freicoin is definitely a step in the right direction, but it is not nearly enough to overcome the first-to-market power of bitcoin.

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July 10, 2012, 10:04:37 PM
 #212

Etiase, I don't want to hijack the thread, so maybe we should discuss this offline, but if you have written down a list of the problems you see with bitcoin, that would make for interesting reading.
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July 10, 2012, 10:36:28 PM
 #213

Etiase, I don't want to hijack the thread, so maybe we should discuss this offline, but if you have written down a list of the problems you see with bitcoin, that would make for interesting reading.

I don't think so although throughout my various proposals I've definitely expounded on a bunch of them. Freicoin may have put a chink in the armor of bitcoin's closed money system, but it doesn't address the underlying manipulation potential. And even free from manipulation, it very, very poorly handles rapid expansion. This is going to set either of these coins back time and time again or until something better comes along. Every new market will be strangled by having to lower prices while everyone in the previous markets gets to benefit. It's silly. I don't have all the problems written down, but I do have most of the solutions here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=91183.0 although I have not gone into much technical detail since I drove through most of that during the encoin process.

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July 11, 2012, 11:09:57 AM
 #214

I'll buy them as a speculator, because I expect their price to rise, the same reason why I own bitcoin.

I don't think this is a smart reason.

"I will buy it because it will rise because other will buy it because it will rise ... "

Yes, Bitcoin behaves very similarly to this, but Bitcoin has a clear advantage over its predecessors, while it seems Freicoin has no such advantage, and has to compete with a big market leader, and Freicoins "feature" over it is actually a deterrent to acquiring/hoarding it.

Well, good luck with it ... time will tell whether I'm right about it or not.

You don't see it as an advantage, because you ignore some of the costs associated with capital money, like capital yields that can't drop to zero by competition like other economic profits (therefore they're capital rents to a certain point) or monetary cycles.
You don't believe a world with only bitcoin as currency and without fractional reserve would cause monetary cycles, but it would, just like gold has caused them many times before. My point is, they will have a value before merchants accept them.

I'll buy them as a speculator, because I expect their price to rise

Er... you'll speculate that their price will rise faster than they'll incur demurrage fees? Isn't the idea of Freicoin to discourage hoarding? Now you're saying that the only way it can take off is if early adopters hoard it?

Yes, sound kind of contradictory. Hoarding it may make sense while the number of users keeps growing.
The point I was trying to make is that they will have a price/value before eny merchant accepts them, just like bitcoin had.
I was thinking about the regression theorem there. Was trying to answer the question.
 
If Freicoin had been the first crypto-currency, it might have worked. In fact, I believe it would have attracted a very different crowd and attitude too. But as others have suggested in this thread and I'm sure I have at various points in the past, Freicoin isn't going to bring anything new enough to the table. Maybe when bitcoin collapses another 2 or 3 times people will be looking elsewhere. Freicoin is apparently going to still be based on many of the same principles but with the "losing money over time" feature, so I think that it is destined to be JACC* and not really a successor. You should be looking to beat bitcoin to a pulp with the awesomeness of your currency, not "well, Silvio Gesell says this.."

* just another crypto-currency

I expect it to have a more stable value. What do you think about it?

As for the initial distribution problem, newly-generated freicoins will be sent to the miners. The problem won't be “how do you get people buy freicoins?” but rather “how will we give the miners something to buy?” Initial liquidity may be provided by someone like @jtimon investing based on perceived future value, but this would a relatively short-term stopgap measure until the merchant tools are in place and full circles of commerce can be established. Shortly thereafter market forces will stabalize the Freicoin price, and it ceases to be worthwhile investment to hold on to.

Exactly. A money will always need merchants. I was just talking about the initial value.

@jtimon, there isn't a faq per se but there is a series of questions-and-answers at the end of the campaign proposal.

Should we start a wiki or something?

Freicoin is definitely a step in the right direction, but it is not nearly enough to overcome the first-to-market power of bitcoin.

I hope you're wrong here. But of course I can't prove it.

2 different forms of free-money: Freicoin (free of basic interest because it's perishable), Mutual credit (no interest because it's abundant)
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July 11, 2012, 01:26:59 PM
 #215

I expect it to have a more stable value. What do you think about it?

I think that's like saying you'd prefer an 8.7 earthquake over a 9.0. Sure it's better, but it's still going to be a really bumpy ride. If the entire world adopts bitcoin or freicoin, freicoin would work much better for the economy I think, but getting to world-wide adoption for either currency is a pipe dream with the millions of percent increases required in the value of the closed currency system. If traditional monetary systems start collapsing, closed money systems are going to enslave, not free.

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July 11, 2012, 01:55:11 PM
 #216

If traditional monetary systems start collapsing, closed money systems are going to enslave, not free.
Perhaps, but at least they won't enslave people through crony capitalism and printing money with zero percent loans for the elite. In fact, I'm really not sure how they could enslave people at all with Bitcoin. Please enlighten me.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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July 11, 2012, 02:59:13 PM
 #217

Perhaps, but at least they won't enslave people through crony capitalism and printing money with zero percent loans for the elite.

So here you agree that it is a possibility, and quite easily identify some popular mechanisms for the status quo enslavement.

Quote
In fact, I'm really not sure how they could enslave people at all with Bitcoin. Please enlighten me.

... and within the span of a sentence doubt yourself. Hindsight is 20/20 cbeast, and most people don't learn very much from history anyway.

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July 11, 2012, 03:32:08 PM
 #218

Perhaps, but at least they won't enslave people through crony capitalism and printing money with zero percent loans for the elite.

So here you agree that it is a possibility, and quite easily identify some popular mechanisms for the status quo enslavement.

Quote
In fact, I'm really not sure how they could enslave people at all with Bitcoin. Please enlighten me.

... and within the span of a sentence doubt yourself. Hindsight is 20/20 cbeast, and most people don't learn very much from history anyway.
Ah, so hindsight enslaves people. Interesting.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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July 11, 2012, 05:00:27 PM
 #219

Ah, so hindsight enslaves people. Interesting.

No, hindsight shows that people think that they're not making a mistake when they are. I can posit scenarios which I've done in several threads, but I can't prove anything beyond the fact that the sheep go "baa". Did you actually have a change of heart mid-post? Or did you just remember some bitcoin gospel that says that I must be crazy to think there is any potential problem with the bitcoin monetary system?

Either way, this is a thread about Freibitcoin, and I won't change your mind about anything so I won't waste anymore time.

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July 11, 2012, 06:22:19 PM
 #220

What is a "closed" monetary system? A link to those posts where you show how Bitcoin enslaves people would be helpful. I've just been skimming over the EnCoin stuff until it has a working alpha, and almost entirely tune out the "I discovered Bitcoin's fatal flaw!" posts.
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