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Author Topic: [ANN] Freicoin: demurrage crypto-currency from the Occupy movement (crowdfund)  (Read 56446 times)
jtimon
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March 04, 2014, 08:39:50 PM
 #361

Off topic but I'll address it. The foundation funds are only spent through community mechanisms, e.g. matching donations. Neither Jorge nor I have any significant control over the destination of those coins.
Whether or not there is matching is irrelevant - the foundation must decide either which charities are elligible, or who gets to vote on which charities are elligible. And the decisions to hold the coins pending a full plan, and to give them to charity, were both made without a vote.

Yes, this is the centralization point of the matched donations distribution. But any censored nonprofit can publicly denounce us.
No one has done it so far.

Your opinion is that the seigniorage should be burned in mining subsidies and I respect that opinion, but you have to face that it is not shared by the majority of the freicoin community. Like I was told when I wanted Bitcoin itself to have demurrage: go ahead and fork freicoin to create an altcoin with demurrage and 100% issuance through mining subsidies.
Seigniorage is the difference between the cost to acquire a good and its market value. If Bitcoin has any seigniorage at all, it tends to zero just like mining profits. That's such a far cry from 80% seigniorage that when you first said this to me months ago, I was so disgusted that I remained silent until now.

Yes, profits tend to zero when time tends to infinity in perfect competition (something purely theoretical), so seigniorage to miners should tend to zero with time as well.
The rest is burned in mining costs, basically providing more security than users are paying for.
This is completely anti-ecological and therefore not aligned with Freicoin's core values.
The very inventor of proof of work-based scarcity refers to this as a "environmental crime".   

I cannot stress this enough, avoiding this waste is the primary reason behind the Freicoin Foundation, supporting nonprofits is just a nice side effect, the "less worse" distribution in my opinion.

There are two reasons I haven't forked:
1) I'm not skilled enough to maintain it properly.
2) I'm not convinced that demurrage is beneficial in the first place.
If anyone reading this does start a "equal rules for all" fork, please PM me and you'll have found your first speculator.

I thought you were for demurrage.
Maybe you can find someone here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=134629.0
That didn't worked because the Freicoin community didn't think like him, but you could just start a completely new chain.

I won't oppose to a second demurrage cryptocurrency, but the freimarkets crowdfunding thread (or this thread) is just not the right place for starting it.

2 different forms of free-money: Freicoin (free of basic interest because it's perishable), Mutual credit (no interest because it's abundant)
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March 04, 2014, 09:14:20 PM
 #362

Freicoin foundation had lots of time to move but seemed idle with the 80% of initial coins. What a shame for such an interesting solution of demurrage. It is very tempting to put this into a new coin with no foundation as the fork you linked in was not a genuine attempt, more of a protest against the solution chosen. Demurrage is a great idea but unfortunately one that people do not want. If the world could be rebooted to use this perhaps it would work, but not in the world we live in.

Perhaps there is time now to retry demurrage, there needs to be a new tier of crypto using a different hashing algorithm. Currently solutions are scattered and there is no standard. Perhaps this is a good time for Maaku to work on the next hashing standard and put demurrage at the top of it Smiley

Hirocoin - New unique feature just added. We will be the new home for GPU miners when those Scrypt ASICs hit.
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March 04, 2014, 09:20:00 PM
 #363

Whether or not there is matching is irrelevant - the foundation must decide either which charities are elligible, or who gets to vote on which charities are elligible. And the decisions to hold the coins pending a full plan, and to give them to charity, were both made without a vote.

Yes, this is the centralization point of the matched donations distribution. But any censored nonprofit can publicly denounce us.
No one has done it so far.

Here maaku has started an discussion about republicon. Who wants help to make decision making fully p2p feel free to join and help developing republicoin!
http://freicoin.freeforums.org/republicoin-design-discussion-t738.html

With simply voting through hashing power I see a big waste of energy, there must be something more democratic and energy friendly. Lets help to find such an algorithm!


Good actions give strength to ourselves and inspire good actions in others.
Plato

Interested in a beautiful free world:
http://foundation.freicoin.org/
maaku
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March 04, 2014, 09:34:11 PM
 #364

I would encourage anyone that takes issue with the Freicoin Foundation to express your grievances and propose constructive solutions: how should the foundation spend those coins?

We've taken a hardline approach that the foundation will only spend coins in ways which are chosen in a decentralized way by the community (e.g. matching donations to any registered non-profit). If we are unable to distribute coins quickly enough by these mechanisms then they will simply demurrage away and are issued to miners over a longer period of time. We are okay with that, as a fallback plan if community agreement cannot be reached.

There are other decentralized, distributed, p2p mechanisms that we would like to use to handle issuance, such as the republicoin proposal: using proof-of-stake voting to determine how the coins should be spent on an ongoing basis. There are a small number technical issues that need to be worked out, and a lot of infrastructure built before republicoin could be rolled out. We can use some help on this.

I'm an independent developer working on bitcoin-core, making my living off community donations.
If you like my work, please consider donating yourself: 13snZ4ZyCzaL7358SmgvHGC9AxskqumNxP
jtimon
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March 05, 2014, 02:09:25 AM
 #365

Freicoin foundation had lots of time to move but seemed idle with the 80% of initial coins.

That's not true, the distribution has already started:

http://foundation.freicoin.org/#/donations
http://freicoin.freeforums.org/matched-donations-program-update-t732.html

Perhaps there is time now to retry demurrage, there needs to be a new tier of crypto using a different hashing algorithm. Currently solutions are scattered and there is no standard. Perhaps this is a good time for Maaku to work on the next hashing standard and put demurrage at the top of it Smiley

I don't think there's any problem with SHA256 that needs to be solved [1]
Scrypt miserably "failed"[2] at being anti-GPU and it seems we will have scrypt ASICs soon as well [3]
There's no algorithm (and will never be) for which you cannot build specialized hardware, and in fact (according to some developers like gmaxwell) it seems that memory-hard algorithms ASIC will have a greater advantage in terms of power consumption over GPUs than SHA256 ASICs have. They will also be harder to design and build so there will probably less producers competing (thus causing more centralization, precisely what alt proofs of works are supposedly try to fight).

More importantly, with SHA256 you can have merged mining and leverage the greatest super-computer in the world: the bitcoin network itself.

For all these reasons and probably more I'm missing, no, we have no interest in working on an alternative hashing algorithm.

[1] http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-developer-jeff-garzik-on-altcoins-asics-and-bitcoin-usability/

[2] https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=63365.0
     https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=69357.msg808501#msg808501
     https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=143659.0

[3] http://www.coindesk.com/alpha-technology-pre-orders-litecoin-asic-miners/

2 different forms of free-money: Freicoin (free of basic interest because it's perishable), Mutual credit (no interest because it's abundant)
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March 05, 2014, 08:16:43 AM
 #366

Freicoin foundation had lots of time to move but seemed idle with the 80% of initial coins.

That's not true, the distribution has already started:

Distribution should have started a year ago which is where my idle comment comes from. It is good to hear that it has now started using your chosen system but I hope it is not too little too late.

Hirocoin - New unique feature just added. We will be the new home for GPU miners when those Scrypt ASICs hit.
maaku
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March 05, 2014, 06:19:30 PM
 #367

We would rather not distribute at all and let the coins disappear through demurrage, than do so in a rushed, unfair, centralized method. If we destroyed the private keys to the foundation funds, the coins would still enter circulation at around the same rate as bitcoin.

I'm an independent developer working on bitcoin-core, making my living off community donations.
If you like my work, please consider donating yourself: 13snZ4ZyCzaL7358SmgvHGC9AxskqumNxP
COMKORT
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March 26, 2014, 11:18:44 PM
 #368

Freicoin was added to voting at Comkort exchange.

Good luck!

jmlindn
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March 29, 2014, 10:48:51 AM
 #369

WTF?
I mean...Where's the FAQ?

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cinnamon_carter
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April 13, 2014, 06:48:58 AM
 #370

Could some of you big asic players please join us in p2pool for freicon ..... we have not hit a block in more days than i can count

Hop in for a while please http://pool.freico.in:9638/static/

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Merge Mine 5 other Blake 256 coins - 6x your hash power  https://www.blakecoin.org/

The obvious choice is not always the best choice.

LOOK DEEPER - Look into the Blake 256 Family -- CC
cinnamon_carter
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April 13, 2014, 07:02:00 AM
 #371

changing the algo would be crazy


don't let these people even get you thinking


you have a successful coin, one of the oldest alt coins , it runs sha 256 d and that's it.....


the people who want to change algo's are only looking to 'exchange' the coins they mine for bitcoin generally


mostly they have no true interest in the actual alt coin they are mining
Freicoin foundation had lots of time to move but seemed idle with the 80% of initial coins.

That's not true, the distribution has already started:

http://foundation.freicoin.org/#/donations
http://freicoin.freeforums.org/matched-donations-program-update-t732.html

Perhaps there is time now to retry demurrage, there needs to be a new tier of crypto using a different hashing algorithm. Currently solutions are scattered and there is no standard. Perhaps this is a good time for Maaku to work on the next hashing standard and put demurrage at the top of it Smiley

I don't think there's any problem with SHA256 that needs to be solved [1]
Scrypt miserably "failed"[2] at being anti-GPU and it seems we will have scrypt ASICs soon as well [3]
There's no algorithm (and will never be) for which you cannot build specialized hardware, and in fact (according to some developers like gmaxwell) it seems that memory-hard algorithms ASIC will have a greater advantage in terms of power consumption over GPUs than SHA256 ASICs have. They will also be harder to design and build so there will probably less producers competing (thus causing more centralization, precisely what alt proofs of works are supposedly try to fight).

More importantly, with SHA256 you can have merged mining and leverage the greatest super-computer in the world: the bitcoin network itself.

For all these reasons and probably more I'm missing, no, we have no interest in working on an alternative hashing algorithm.

[1] http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-developer-jeff-garzik-on-altcoins-asics-and-bitcoin-usability/

[2] https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=63365.0
     https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=69357.msg808501#msg808501
     https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=143659.0

[3] http://www.coindesk.com/alpha-technology-pre-orders-litecoin-asic-miners/


Check out my coin Photon
Merge Mine 5 other Blake 256 coins - 6x your hash power  https://www.blakecoin.org/

The obvious choice is not always the best choice.

LOOK DEEPER - Look into the Blake 256 Family -- CC
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April 29, 2014, 03:06:48 PM
 #372



Website | Twitter  | Bitcointalk

Hi,Freicoin Community

We have added your coin to ECOINFUND vote list.(http://www.ecoinfund.com/vote
an effective vote will cost 10 ECFC; repeating vote are allowed; the Exchange Market will be open as soon as the voting reach 1000.!
ECFC is the fee share program launched by Ecoinfund. Ecoinfund will commit 50% of trade revenue to ECFC program. (highest on market ECFC Details)

Here the ways of getting ECFC:
1. buy the ECFC through our ECFC/BTC or ECFC/LTC market.
2. taking part into our GIVEAWAY.

Big ECFC GIVEAWAY before 10.May
Tweet this green text on your own twitter account then recive 20 ECFC;
Quote
ecoinfund.com |New Exchange,multi-language support,Earn 20 ECFC(fee shares) by every retweet before 10 May,don't miss the train!
Pls post your twitter link and Ecoinfund ID on  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=501030.0 ,you will get 20 ECFC!

Happy trading !
cinnamon_carter
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May 16, 2014, 10:58:24 PM
 #373

I would be greatful if someone can recommend a decent active pool to mine Freicon ,

on p2pool i get about 13% rejects no matter how I adjust difficulty and that is only with 40 ghs

Check out my coin Photon
Merge Mine 5 other Blake 256 coins - 6x your hash power  https://www.blakecoin.org/

The obvious choice is not always the best choice.

LOOK DEEPER - Look into the Blake 256 Family -- CC
maaku
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May 17, 2014, 08:45:53 AM
 #374

That is normal for p2pool, and does not affect your payout. You may also try http://freicoin.us/

I'm an independent developer working on bitcoin-core, making my living off community donations.
If you like my work, please consider donating yourself: 13snZ4ZyCzaL7358SmgvHGC9AxskqumNxP
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May 17, 2014, 07:46:30 PM
 #375



lol

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they keep laughing, then they start choking on their laughter, and then they go and catch their breath. Then they start laughing even more.
maaku
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May 18, 2014, 12:38:32 AM
 #376

so?

I'm an independent developer working on bitcoin-core, making my living off community donations.
If you like my work, please consider donating yourself: 13snZ4ZyCzaL7358SmgvHGC9AxskqumNxP
herzmeister
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May 18, 2014, 01:24:38 AM
 #377

Who needs Freicoin when you have EZB: http://www.welt.de/print/die_welt/finanzen/article128066476/Deutsche-Sparer-muessen-Strafzinsen-der-EZB-fuerchten.html

(Gesell honorably mentioned too)


https://localbitcoins.com/?ch=80k | BTC: 1LJvmd1iLi199eY7EVKtNQRW3LqZi8ZmmB
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May 18, 2014, 12:23:21 PM
 #378

so?

exactly when even the creator doesn't care if it goes down, I'd say it pretty much failed. I can't see it from the graph is it already at the point where everybody who bought freicoins ever is in the red? Anyway "I told you so" and if it  haven't been for the freicoin foundation mining tax scam it should have turned out differently, because well it can't be much worse.

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they keep laughing, then they start choking on their laughter, and then they go and catch their breath. Then they start laughing even more.
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May 18, 2014, 03:54:35 PM
 #379

I'm not sure how informed you are about Freicoin, but the underlying purpose and design requirements are to explicitly avoid speculative asset appreciation. I see a very flat and relatively stable graph, minus the deceptive spike around the time of bitcoin's runup. That's a good thing.

I'm an independent developer working on bitcoin-core, making my living off community donations.
If you like my work, please consider donating yourself: 13snZ4ZyCzaL7358SmgvHGC9AxskqumNxP
cinnamon_carter
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May 18, 2014, 08:09:28 PM
 #380

thank you and to the others who sent pm's with suggestions also....


That is normal for p2pool, and does not affect your payout. You may also try http://freicoin.us/

Check out my coin Photon
Merge Mine 5 other Blake 256 coins - 6x your hash power  https://www.blakecoin.org/

The obvious choice is not always the best choice.

LOOK DEEPER - Look into the Blake 256 Family -- CC
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