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Author Topic: [ANN] Freicoin: demurrage crypto-currency from the Occupy movement (crowdfund)  (Read 56286 times)
Etlase2
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April 22, 2013, 05:23:35 AM
 #281

I'm not interested in what Gesellian group-think thinks, I'm interested in why whenever I google freicoin I do not see anything about this foundation or how the currency is being distributed.

You are free to run your currency however you want. But your group keeping this on the down-low makes it seem as if you are ashamed of this feature.

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maaku
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April 22, 2013, 05:34:55 AM
 #282

I apologize if this sounds dismissive, but I have only a few hours a week I can devote to Freicoin and I'd rather spend that implementing infrastructure and new features (like republicoin) than handling non-essential PR.

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Etlase2
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April 22, 2013, 05:46:54 AM
 #283

It is unfortunate that dispelling the idea of being shady crypto banksters is not important to you.

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April 22, 2013, 01:53:46 PM
 #284

That's silly, it's better to just work on the fix than to apologize for why it's not done. I'll bring myself up to speed on Republicoin, thanks everyone for your answers.
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April 22, 2013, 02:49:51 PM
 #285

AFAICT, "republicoin" is just "vote for how we spend the money", not anything actually democratic. It does not appear to me that the foundation idea is going anywhere, yet there is no mention of this cornerstone of the freicoin design. You can P2P vote to your heart's content, and maaku can still buy a yacht with it. Not saying that will happen, but I am tired of shady people trying to swindle others in the name of freedom over this cryptocurrency bullshit.

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April 22, 2013, 03:19:10 PM
 #286

AFAICT, "republicoin" is just "vote for how we spend the money", not anything actually democratic. It does not appear to me that the foundation idea is going anywhere, yet there is no mention of this cornerstone of the freicoin design. You can P2P vote to your heart's content, and maaku can still buy a yacht with it. Not saying that will happen, but I am tired of shady people trying to swindle others in the name of freedom over this cryptocurrency bullshit.

I think this is what you were looking for on google: http://freico.in/how/

And as said many times, if maaku buys a yacht with the foundation funds or just if the distribution is not fully published as promised, the community will accept a hard-fork very fast. Please, read my post above for more on the hard-fork.
The way cryptocoins work, it is very easy to audit the foundation's expenditures, since all its funds are public in the block chain for anyone to see.



2 different forms of free-money: Freicoin (free of basic interest because it's perishable), Mutual credit (no interest because it's abundant)
Etlase2
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April 22, 2013, 04:56:33 PM
 #287

jti, you guys have no credibility whatsoever in my eyes. Last minute completely changing the idea of freicoin to give yourselves all kinds of power. Why should anyone care? Does anyone? What was the point of releasing when you did if you weren't ready to implement whatever system you have planned? Worried about missing the boat? Was Indiegogo giving you deadlines? The actions of your team do not make logical sense to me.

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April 22, 2013, 05:49:15 PM
 #288

jti, you guys have no credibility whatsoever in my eyes. Last minute completely changing the idea of freicoin to give yourselves all kinds of power. Why should anyone care? Does anyone? What was the point of releasing when you did if you weren't ready to implement whatever system you have planned? Worried about missing the boat? Was Indiegogo giving you deadlines? The actions of your team do not make logical sense to me.

You have to take into account that we have different views. Personally I'm not convinced about the proof of stake voting idea (republicon), but many others think it would be the best and I'm open to explore new ideas.
The foundation is not a "last minute change" at all. Although I've been resisting to any alternative to mining distribution since I proposed freicoin until possibly the last months before release, the opposition to mining issuance has been persistent from great part of the community since the beginning, just days after the forum was created, you can check it out. Countless possibilities have been discussed, we have an specialized forum for that and there's more proposals dispersed in other subforums. I would even say that some people left the project because of my resistance against non-p2p solutions.
After many discussions I was convinced myself that although "mining is needed for security" and "miner's profits should tend to zero by competition", everyone else was right: initial issuance through mining is wasteful.
Not destroying energy to create the initial base being a want from the community is not surprising since actually some people are precisely attracted by sustainable investments argument that people like Bernard Lieater or Charles Eisenstein use in favor of demurrage currencies.
And I ended up agreeing, guilty on that. I know there's other people who would like to use a system like republicoin for part of the 5% demurrage too, but I think centralization is only acceptable if it's a one-time-only thing.
Actually I thought that "giving money away to good causes" would be simpler than it seems it will be, but we needed to launch before, because we need a price to calculate the amounts for the grants, and ideally some merchants on board too.
Unfortunately there's no place to look at to know the fiat price of FRC yet, and it's not easily convertible, so almost no merchants.
But one day the foundation will dispense some coins, and it will be good to have many vigilant people to guarantee that the funds are not abused.
Better issuing the coins by resource wasting than by corruption. But mining is only better than that, and there's actually people out there managing resources transparently using participative processes. So why not give it a try ourselves? The anti-corruption button is always there.

2 different forms of free-money: Freicoin (free of basic interest because it's perishable), Mutual credit (no interest because it's abundant)
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April 22, 2013, 05:52:51 PM
 #289

jti, you guys have no credibility whatsoever in my eyes. Last minute completely changing the idea of freicoin to give yourselves all kinds of power. Why should anyone care? Does anyone? What was the point of releasing when you did if you weren't ready to implement whatever system you have planned? Worried about missing the boat? Was Indiegogo giving you deadlines? The actions of your team do not make logical sense to me.


After many discussions I was convinced myself that although "mining is needed for security" and "miner's profits should tend to zero by competition", everyone else was right: initial issuance through mining is wasteful.


'Should' and 'is' are two very different realities:

http://blockchain.info/charts/miners-operating-profit-margin
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April 22, 2013, 05:54:23 PM
 #290

I apologize if this sounds dismissive, but I have only a few hours a week I can devote to Freicoin and I'd rather spend that implementing infrastructure and new features (like republicoin) than handling non-essential PR.

hi maaku,
if I can help to design republicoin just let me know. I would be very happy if I can help to create republicoin.

Some questions about republicoin:
Should republicoin be another coin, or should it be only used to distribute the foundation money in a p2p way? Or should it later on also be used to distribute the new created coins?

In case of the freicoin foundation, perhaps it is good to mention and link the idea of the freicoin foundation on the main site. And also to mention the goal of the freicoin foundation.

I would offer here my help, but I’m not native English speaking.

Perhaps its good to consider to drop the foundation totally and concentrate on the republicoin concept?
Best regards,
Arcurus

Good actions give strength to ourselves and inspire good actions in others.
Plato

Interested in a beautiful free world:
http://foundation.freicoin.org/
Etlase2
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April 22, 2013, 05:59:52 PM
 #291

You have to take into account that we have different views. Personally I'm not convinced about the proof of stake voting idea (republicon),

Me neither. You are using the foundation as an excuse for not wasting effort mining. It's reasonable enough, except that if voting has anything to do with mining, it becomes a complete waste of resources again.

Quote
The foundation is not a "last minute change" at all. Although I've been resisting to any alternative to mining distribution since I proposed freicoin until possibly the last months before release, the opposition to mining issuance has been persistent from great part of the community since the beginning,

I'll take your word for it even though it took me completely by surprise after discussing the demurrage idea with you over several threads, and even registering on your forums. It still does not excuse the fact that this core idea is completely absent from all of your PR media.

Quote
Actually I thought that "giving money away to good causes" would be simpler than it seems it will be, but we needed to launch before, because we need a price to calculate the amounts for the grants,

Machinated excuse.

Quote
But one day the foundation will dispense some coins, and it will be good to have many vigilant people to guarantee that the funds are not abused.

Vigilant people who are wasting tons of resources mining, right?

PS - http://freico.in/how/ this page is about as informative as Solidcoin's.

don giovanni
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April 22, 2013, 06:08:20 PM
 #292

I have to agree with Etlase2 here, the whole point of bitcoin was to escape a system whereby few have power over all. This attempt at a currency seems to turn bitcoins philosophy on its head.
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April 22, 2013, 06:41:38 PM
 #293

It still does not excuse the fact that this core idea is completely absent from all of your PR media.

Well, in fact "help us distribute 80 Millions" has been a way to present the idea to many groups.
The foundation hasn't received many critics outside of the cryptocurrencies community. Many other communities actually complain about the 20% to miners.

PS - http://freico.in/how/ this page is about as informative as Solidcoin's.

Ok, it could be better. You're right, we should improve it.

2 different forms of free-money: Freicoin (free of basic interest because it's perishable), Mutual credit (no interest because it's abundant)
Etlase2
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April 22, 2013, 06:53:48 PM
 #294

It still does not excuse the fact that this core idea is completely absent from all of your PR media.

Well, in fact "help us distribute 80 Millions" has been a way to present the idea to many groups.
The foundation hasn't received many critics outside of the cryptocurrencies community. Many other communities actually complain about the 20% to miners.

If you want your currency to go anywhere, you're going to need more than the few dozen gesellians. You can have your utopian view of how you can distribute the currency, I won't argue that. What I will point out, again, is that you are not advertising this feature to everybody. And you seemed to have compromised your ideals in an effort to get the currency out sooner, for whatever silly reason.

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April 28, 2013, 03:23:50 AM
 #295

please help me, I lost all my coin, I have backup my wallet.dat, my hard drive was corrupted, I have to sync my wallet on the new computer, but all my FRC no longer,
//I remember I have creating one new address in the my wallet,
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April 28, 2013, 05:03:22 AM
 #296

I apologize if this sounds dismissive, but I have only a few hours a week I can devote to Freicoin and I'd rather spend that implementing infrastructure and new features (like republicoin) than handling non-essential PR.

PSST... want the rest of us Freicoin devoted Plebs like me to take up the torch Maaku?

Keep pluggin away man... very very happy with the coin. It's profitability and the fact the Demurrage will get this coin moving. I think the PR campaign is a simple one. Good devs, fair democratic distribution of foundation funds we all get a voice in and a lot of coin for miners who will eventually get every single Kria as the demurrage will slowly but surely right all the "evils" of the original dispersement through a foundation.

You can moan and bitch and whine but at the end of the day this coin will be there, it will provide a means to purchase goods and services and will be less likely to be hoarded. That for me is something to look forward to as well as 0% interest loans... ya 0%!

There are more than a FEW people out in the wild who see the value of this coin. Whether you want as a user to get involved is your choice but I bet you dollars to donuts that the "foundation" in whatever form will be what we make it. Not some imaginary redistribution of wealth nightmare the right leaning types who have been drinking the Ron Paul coolaid in the US think. I for one grow tired of the group think that somehow mining is the most fair and democratic way to dispense a coin when in reality the 99% of the planet who can't even afford electricity watches on. Might want to get your head out of your ass and participate in something that requires you to do more than sit in the balcony and heckle down like a muppet. There is certainly a bubble in this community and nothing seems to escape it very cowardly thinking it is.

You have supplanted the "system" with a network of miners who are continually consolidating their grip on Bitcoin.... over time Bitcoin will not be decentralized rather centralized in  the hands of people with more and more hashing power. Which do you want? A humane system where there could be errors in judgement or a system that eventually becomes the very thing you despise when the corporate takeover happens? I prefer to think that a foundation of the users for the users can work more efficiently than a system that is built on 1st world technology excluding billions of people.

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April 28, 2013, 07:19:45 AM
 #297

I could really use a 0% interest loan personally.

Eyes open, No Fear. Be Safe!
Etlase2
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April 28, 2013, 07:42:58 AM
 #298

I for one grow tired of the group think that somehow mining is the most fair and democratic way to dispense a coin when in reality the 99% of the planet who can't even afford electricity watches on. Might want to get your head out of your ass and participate in something that requires you to do more than sit in the balcony and heckle down like a muppet. There is certainly a bubble in this community and nothing seems to escape it very cowardly thinking it is.

I, for one, am not just sitting on the balcony heckling. I've spent the last two years designing an alternative (see sig)--coin dispensation sans mining, after a fashion, included. I am very anti-bitcoin. I also believe that demurrage has little chance of being accepted when there will be people willing to pay in non-demurraging currencies. But that is also not the topic I was bringing up--I was questioning the motives of the developers when the foundation for the currency distribution has not a whit of a mention in the PR media. That smells bad to me.

Quote
You have supplanted the "system" with a network of miners who are continually consolidating their grip on Bitcoin.... over time Bitcoin will not be decentralized rather centralized in  the hands of people with more and more hashing power.

I agree. I have even touched on this in my proposal.

Quote
Which do you want? A humane system where there could be errors in judgement or a system that eventually becomes the very thing you despise when the corporate takeover happens? I prefer to think that a foundation of the users for the users can work more efficiently than a system that is built on 1st world technology excluding billions of people.

I believe there is a third option you have not considered--perhaps the best of both worlds--and the proposal for it is in my signature. I won't mention it again here though as I know that sort of thing is annoying and I'm not here to promote Decrits.

Regardless of all else, Freicoin has not eliminated mining and will be either significantly easier to attack than bitcoin (is mining the source of voting in republicoin? even worse if so), or in the habit of wasting all sorts of resources like bitcoin in pursuit of a currency that will only lose its value.

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April 28, 2013, 06:25:17 PM
 #299

hi maaku,
if I can help to design republicoin just let me know. I would be very happy if I can help to create republicoin.

Some questions about republicoin:
Should republicoin be another coin, or should it be only used to distribute the foundation money in a p2p way? Or should it later on also be used to distribute the new created coins?

In case of the freicoin foundation, perhaps it is good to mention and link the idea of the freicoin foundation on the main site. And also to mention the goal of the freicoin foundation.

I would offer here my help, but I’m not native English speaking.

Perhaps its good to consider to drop the foundation totally and concentrate on the republicoin concept?
Best regards,
Arcurus


I'm glad I got notification about the new posts, because I somehow missed this one. Yes, we could use your help or the help of anyone here in devising a protocol for Republicoin. One of my TODO tasks is to compile all the thoughts that we had about which are currently spread all over the forum. But in a nutshell:

If it were implemented in time, Republicoin budgeting could be used to distribute the remaining Foundation funds. However the long-term purpose is to more efficiently distribute the 4.9% perpetual demurrage-offsetting subsidy. A bicamerate proof-of-work/proof-of-stake congress would first come to agreement on the split between money going directly to miners and money distributed through budgeting. Then the proof-of-stake voters would come up with a budget, of which the proof-of-work voters (miners) would have veto power. If it passes, it then becomes the network rule: blocks are rejected unless that portion of the funds are spent within the coinbase according to the current budget.

As for how it would be implemented, the obvious solution is some sort of digital signature voting protocol on a meta-chain - that is to say merge-mined alt chain with the specific purpose of timestamping signed ballots. That's getting a bit ahead of ourselves though, as right now what needs to be done is the selection of a suitable distributed voting protocol, of which there are probably examples in the academic literature, and determining how proof-of-stake signatures will be constructed (unsolved problem, as far as I'm aware).

I'm an independent developer working on bitcoin-core, making my living off community donations.
If you like my work, please consider donating yourself: 13snZ4ZyCzaL7358SmgvHGC9AxskqumNxP
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April 28, 2013, 07:27:06 PM
 #300

A bicamerate proof-of-work/proof-of-stake congress would first come to agreement on the split between money going directly to miners and money distributed through budgeting. Then the proof-of-stake voters would come up with a budget, of which the proof-of-work voters (miners) would have veto power.
How does the PoW half of the voting help?
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