Bitcoin Forum
December 09, 2016, 12:10:38 AM *
News: Latest stable version of Bitcoin Core: 0.13.1  [Torrent].
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 [13] 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 »  All
  Print  
Author Topic: [ANN] Freicoin: demurrage crypto-currency from the Occupy movement (crowdfund)  (Read 56439 times)
Etlase2
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 798


View Profile
July 15, 2012, 03:05:23 PM
 #241

That is hardly a weakness--it is exactly where the security of bitcoin comes from!

It is most definitely a weakness. It makes perpetuating an attack on the security of the network trivial. It also means that if any one of the networks based off of bitcoin is attacked, they can all be.

Quote
But regardless, although this is an interesting and valuable discussion, it should be held in a separate thread; we have wandered significantly off-topic. Freicoin is and will always be a proposal within the framework of bitcoin-like systems.

While devising a new security system would be difficult (although I suggest you take a long look into the idea of a weighted block chain that I briefly talk about here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=64637.0), the account ledger really would not be that much effort. But if you'd rather not make any steps forward in crypto-currency technology, that is your unfortunate prerogative.

1481242238
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481242238

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481242238
Reply with quote  #2

1481242238
Report to moderator
1481242238
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481242238

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481242238
Reply with quote  #2

1481242238
Report to moderator
1481242238
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481242238

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481242238
Reply with quote  #2

1481242238
Report to moderator
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1481242238
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481242238

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481242238
Reply with quote  #2

1481242238
Report to moderator
1481242238
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481242238

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481242238
Reply with quote  #2

1481242238
Report to moderator
1481242238
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481242238

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481242238
Reply with quote  #2

1481242238
Report to moderator
bg002h
Donator
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1288


Got GLIPH? https://gli.ph/m *p-d-d


View Profile WWW
July 15, 2012, 03:18:46 PM
 #242

...it would be hard for freicoin to have much value if everyone who got some realized they could grow their freicoin wealth by selling, buying anything inflating at less than the freicoin rate, and just waiting. This scenario benefits the last adopter most.

My very own Casascius Bearer Bar: 1GCDzqmX2Cf513E8NeThNHxiYEivU1Chhe
jtimon
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1246


View Profile WWW
July 15, 2012, 04:18:47 PM
 #243

@maaku
Sorry about going off-topic.

The only thing a cash-money needs that bitcoin doesn't have is a compulsion to circulate.

Why does cash-money require a compulsion to circulate? I'm sure you'll explain this away as saying you didn't really mean this word, but something like "incentive", but I find it interesting nonetheless.

I wasn't thinking on those definitions, I was just citing Gesell translated to English:
"I have denied that paper-money as we know it (without direct, material compulsion to circulate) could ever be as closely adapted to supply as a regular exchange of wares, national and international, requires".
Note that we, unlike him don't aim an elastic supply. But also note how he criticizes the current Keynesian model.

Anyway, back to your question:
Why does cash-money require a compulsion to circulate?

Otherwise it opens the possibility for the money holder to lock the medium of exchange, refusing to spend, invest or lend it. He can enjoy an economic rent in the financial market Gesell called "the basic interest". If he doesn't get it, he hoards. And that's what happens when iterest rates go "too low". Forget central banks manipulated interest rates, I'm talking about a problem that gold-money has.
Capital yields and interest rates are directly linked. By virtue of continued investment and capital accumulation capital yields drop (economic profits tend to zero in perfect competition). But there's an artificial lower bound (the natural would be zero), the basic interest. You prefer to hold the money yourself rather than lending it at 0.1% interest, even if is inflation and risk free.
Holding money represents an insurance against uncertainty. Instead of owning real wealth that perishes or suffers storage/maintenance costs, you own an everlasting wildcard. This free insurance the hoarder does not pay for constitutes an economic rent, and must be paid somewhere else. The terrible byproduct of capital-money is a rent protection for lenders and capital owners (because the investments stop below the basic interest).
When interest go below the basic interest hoarding increases, which causes price deflation which encourages more hoarding.
The financial market gets also severely damaged by the deflationary spiral, but if the governments don't interfere, unemployment, capital destruction and lack of new investments (a war can serve too) rapidly lead to a new price equilibrium where interest rates are well above the basic interest again. The monetary cycle has ended and starts again. Messing with the monetary supply first through fractional reserve banking and then with central banks has been proven to be unsuccessful I guess we can agree. It's about velocity not quantity.

In summary:

1) Because everlasting cash-money springs economic rents
2) Because everlasting cash-money causes monetary cycles.

Do you understand the concept of time preference? Even if the exchange rate between bitcoins and some good I desire is constantly changing in my favor, I still desire that good and at some point my preference for the good now overrides my preference for a lower cost later. For a real life example, you must look no further than consumer technology like computers and televisions. If I wait a year to buy one, the cost will go down and the quality will go up. Yet, I still buy one today because otherwise I will be forced to go a whole year without.

Yes, I do. But we disagree on what causes it. You think time preference causes interest. I think interest causes time preference.
A simple proof is that different money designs produce different interest rates. Another thought exercise would be "Why the time preference is never negative, don't we ever prefer things in the future than in the present?". The austrian concept of time preference only applies to capital-money: you don't necessarily prefer 5000 fresh oranges today over a fresh new orange for the next 5000 days.
But the point you're making is that growth caused deflation isn't bad. I agree, that's why Freicoin has a fixed monetary base. More fixed than bitcoin's by the way.

...it would be hard for freicoin to have much value if everyone who got some realized they could grow their freicoin wealth by selling, buying anything inflating at less than the freicoin rate, and just waiting. This scenario benefits the last adopter most.

Freicoin is not inflationary. If you mean that people would prefer a better yield than -4%...I say more, they will prefer 0% or more. But this medium of exchange is not for saving. If you want to save with it you must lend.
I don't see how the last adopter gets beenfited.

2 different forms of free-money: Freicoin (free of basic interest because it's perishable), Mutual credit (no interest because it's abundant)
finkleshnorts
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 336



View Profile
July 16, 2012, 10:49:27 PM
 #244

isn't demurrage/inflation onlyuseful because people desire to "exchange" their depreciating money for something that does not depreciate as quickly (or at all, in bitcoin's case)?

I would think that a currency like this would be impossible to bootstrap without great influence (i.e. govermental influence), especially in bitcoin's digital arena.
jtimon
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1246


View Profile WWW
July 17, 2012, 07:20:04 AM
 #245

isn't demurrage/inflation onlyuseful because people desire to "exchange" their depreciating money for something that does not depreciate as quickly (or at all, in bitcoin's case)?

It is also useful to trade for other wares that unlike bitcoin or gold, perish like freicoin. Apples, fish, labor...
Others don't perish but incur in storage costs.

I would think that a currency like this would be impossible to bootstrap without great influence (i.e. govermental influence), especially in bitcoin's digital arena.

We advocates and other crazy people will be enough to give it a base price. After that price, merchants don't care about the absolute price, if they must put a lot of zeros with their prices denominated in fcn so be it. Think of bit-pay and bitcoin, for example. It makes possible for merchants that don't want to have any assets denominated in bitcoin to accept them.
A currency needs users, not necessarily hoarders.
Anyway, let's see what happens. This is not going to have governmental influence so we'll be able to know if your assertion is accurate.

2 different forms of free-money: Freicoin (free of basic interest because it's perishable), Mutual credit (no interest because it's abundant)
fivebells
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 462


View Profile
July 17, 2012, 05:23:17 PM
 #246

I would think that a currency like this would be impossible to bootstrap without great influence (i.e. govermental influence), especially in bitcoin's digital arena.

I think the idea is that you can pretty much mine it at the same time as bitcoin for pretty much zero cost, so you will at least have a lot of willing sellers, hence a reason for merchants to trade in it.
Bitcoin Oz
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 700


Wat


View Profile WWW
July 18, 2012, 02:53:50 AM
 #247

One thing is for sure I would spend freicoin more readily than bitcoin. I think thats the point....

smoothie
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1848


LEALANA Monero Physical Silver Coins


View Profile
July 18, 2012, 02:55:44 AM
 #248

One thing is for sure I would spend freicoin more readily than bitcoin. I think thats the point....

hot potato! hot potato!

███████████████████████████████████████

            ,╓p@@███████@╗╖,           
        ,p████████████████████N,       
      d█████████████████████████b     
    d██████████████████████████████æ   
  ,████²█████████████████████████████, 
 ,█████  ╙████████████████████╨  █████y
 ██████    `████████████████`    ██████
║██████       Ñ███████████`      ███████
███████         ╩██████Ñ         ███████
███████    ▐▄     ²██╩     a▌    ███████
╢██████    ▐▓█▄          ▄█▓▌    ███████
 ██████    ▐▓▓▓▓▌,     ▄█▓▓▓▌    ██████─
           ▐▓▓▓▓▓▓█,,▄▓▓▓▓▓▓▌          
           ▐▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▌          
    ▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓─  
     ²▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓╩    
        ▀▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▀       
           ²▀▀▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▀▀`          
                   ²²²                 
███████████████████████████████████████

. ★☆ WWW.LEALANA.COM        My PGP fingerprint is A764D833.        SMOOTHIE'S HEALTH AND FITNESS JOURNAL          History of Monero development Visualization ★☆ .
LEALANA  PHYSICAL MONERO COINS 999 FINE SILVER.
 
jtimon
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1246


View Profile WWW
July 18, 2012, 05:05:20 PM
 #249

One thing is for sure I would spend freicoin more readily than bitcoin. I think thats the point....

hot potato! hot potato!

Yes, that's the point. You give your wares and then you want other people's products in exchange. Freicoin is only the middle man: you don't want to deal with him for long periods. It's like going from city A to city B: you don't want to stop in the middle of the road. And you can harm other drivers by doing it.

The value sent / market Cap ratio will be much higher than in bitcoin. With higher velocity a currency can conduct more trade volume with less capitalization.

2 different forms of free-money: Freicoin (free of basic interest because it's perishable), Mutual credit (no interest because it's abundant)
chrisrico
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 496


View Profile
July 18, 2012, 05:13:27 PM
 #250

It's like going from city A to city B: you don't want to stop in the middle of the road. And you can harm other drivers by doing it.

Money as a road... I think this metaphor may be worse than the internet as a series of tubes or a bunch of trucks.
jtimon
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1246


View Profile WWW
July 18, 2012, 08:12:46 PM
 #251

It's like going from city A to city B: you don't want to stop in the middle of the road. And you can harm other drivers by doing it.

Money as a road... I think this metaphor may be worse than the internet as a series of tubes or a bunch of trucks.

Is it bad because roads serve to move wares around and capital monies sometimes don't?

2 different forms of free-money: Freicoin (free of basic interest because it's perishable), Mutual credit (no interest because it's abundant)
Etlase2
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 798


View Profile
July 18, 2012, 08:43:00 PM
 #252

Is it bad because roads serve to move wares around and capital monies sometimes don't?

burrrrrrrrn

chrisrico
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 496


View Profile
July 18, 2012, 09:23:21 PM
 #253

Is it bad because roads serve to move wares around and capital monies sometimes don't?

Yes, sometimes they don't. Like when people want to save.
jtimon
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1246


View Profile WWW
July 18, 2012, 09:52:46 PM
 #254

Is it bad because roads serve to move wares around and capital monies sometimes don't?

Yes, sometimes they don't. Like when people want to save.

People saving doesn't imply people hoarding. Anyway, I was referring to monetary cycles. A sudden and destructive slow down on the velocity of money. My reasoning on this is on the deflation post.

2 different forms of free-money: Freicoin (free of basic interest because it's perishable), Mutual credit (no interest because it's abundant)
Spekulatius
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1022



View Profile
August 13, 2012, 03:08:51 PM
 #255

http://www.indiegogo.com/freicoin

OK, time is up, 1181$ collected. So what's next?

Will you still do it or bail out with you funders money? lol

Seriously, I would like to know what your plans are.
maaku
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 905


View Profile
August 13, 2012, 04:37:06 PM
 #256

We're working on a beta, to be released within a week or two. Discussion is happening on the freicoin forums:

http://www.freicoin.org/

I'm an independent developer working on bitcoin-core, making my living off community donations.
If you like my work, please consider donating yourself: 13snZ4ZyCzaL7358SmgvHGC9AxskqumNxP
maaku
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 905


View Profile
August 26, 2012, 12:29:58 AM
 #257

We're nearing feature-freeze for the beta. The beta, release planning, and launch will all occur on the Freicoin forums. This very well might be my last post on the topic here at bitcointalk. If you haven't yet, I recommend checking out the Freicoin forums:

http://freicoin.freeforums.org/

I'm an independent developer working on bitcoin-core, making my living off community donations.
If you like my work, please consider donating yourself: 13snZ4ZyCzaL7358SmgvHGC9AxskqumNxP
ElectricMucus
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1540


Drama Junkie


View Profile
August 26, 2012, 04:54:50 AM
 #258

I just had an idea related to demurrage:

Instead of a regular bitcoin distribution scheme make all coins ever to exist instantly available. Provide a mechanism called "decay" where miners can vote on the speed of the demurrage. The vote is written into the solved block and the network calculates the moving average just like the difficulty adjustment.
New miners will probably vote for a short half-life old miners for a longer one. It's basically the proof of stake mechanism applied to demurrage.

This way the coin can stay valuable and fluid even for the initial period when the economy grows at an exponential rate.

It's kind of hard to describe it without examples but I'm am pretty confident this would yield the fastest economic growth possible.

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they keep laughing, then they start choking on their laughter, and then they go and catch their breath. Then they start laughing even more.
btcnut
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 65


View Profile
April 12, 2013, 11:55:40 AM
 #259

I think the problem with freicoin is it takes too much effort to explain to laymen. This means it wont be adopted easily.

Most people wont know what demurrage is

Most people dont like the idea of paying fees

The notion of demurrage discourages early adopters

Most people wont like trusting a "foundation" who gets a cut of everything (many organisations start out with good intentions)



Considering all of that, why not just go with the bitcoin model with a maximum number of blocks so high that would take millenia to reach the end point of. That way you would have your inflation component (printing of new coins) fixed, and wouldnt need to call it a fee or confuse laymen with terms like demurrage.
maaku
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 905


View Profile
April 12, 2013, 02:59:07 PM
 #260

Inflation and demurrage are you it the same thing.

I'm an independent developer working on bitcoin-core, making my living off community donations.
If you like my work, please consider donating yourself: 13snZ4ZyCzaL7358SmgvHGC9AxskqumNxP
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 [13] 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 »  All
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!