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Author Topic: [ANN] Freicoin: demurrage crypto-currency from the Occupy movement (crowdfund)  (Read 56483 times)
Explodicle
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May 03, 2013, 07:44:44 PM
 #321

If a freiconomy can remove interest on mortgages, then this surely will avail much of the financial sorrows of the common Occupyer. Political labeling of wether to call the theory left or right is not relevant when you narrow it down to that.

doesn't matter, leftish idealists and Marxists would call it "verkürzte Kapitalismuskritik", that would translate to something like (dangerously) reduced critique of capitalism.

So what? You'll never satisfy the extremists. Fair home loans, no inflation, zero bailouts. The Marxist philosopher-kings can't even pry my money out of my cold dead hands - all redistribution of wealth in Freicoin is 100% optional. Sure beats the hell out of the Occcu!
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May 04, 2013, 12:05:04 PM
 #322

Lets see what future this coin has Smiley
I think it'll be a big coin one day!

Speculating..
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May 04, 2013, 06:57:01 PM
 #323

build problems Linux (Ubuntu 12.04)
Code:
/home/xxx/freicoin/src/bignum.h:14: error:mpfr.h: No such file or directory
any hints?
TIA
maaku
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May 04, 2013, 07:12:03 PM
 #324

Install mpfr.

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May 04, 2013, 09:05:02 PM
 #325

If a freiconomy can remove interest on mortgages, then this surely will avail much of the financial sorrows of the common Occupyer. Political labeling of wether to call the theory left or right is not relevant when you narrow it down to that.

doesn't matter, leftish idealists and Marxists would call it "verkürzte Kapitalismuskritik", that would translate to something like (dangerously) reduced critique of capitalism.

Gesell is considered anti-marxist in that he rejects Marxist labor-theory of value, and argues that Marx has made massive error in ignoring the nature of money and interest.  Now history has in my opinion clearly disproved labor-theory of value and abrogating free markets reduce productivity too much, and capitalism has been shown to have some serious flaws which Gesells theory explains very well.

FRC:  18mAGEto3xZzfKNJPwsDVA5c2Fk5Za3nbs  http://www.freicoin.org  IRC:  Freenode #freicoin
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May 04, 2013, 11:20:59 PM
 #326

Marx didn't endorse the labor theory of value either. That's a common misinterpretation. Or misunderstanding. Simply googling or wiki-ing will do.  Wink

Though if you want true socialism or communism, i.e. public and democratic control of production, you'd measure effort in a way that might resemble this theory. It doesn't mean it's wrong historically, it's just a different economic concept that, according to the Marxian utopists, never really was tried in practice (maybe the Spanish Anarchism came close).

And he did criticize "interest" all the time. He called it "Mehrwert" (surplus value). (He didn't differentiate it, and he was right with that, because there should be no real difference between interest and dividends, today things are even more fucked up.) In fact that's what Marxism is all about.

(I don't endorse Marx, but it's not helpful to build upon false criticism).

btw and more on-topic again, Gesell's Freiland is socialism, and my point of view is still that this is the big elephant in the room of his theories. If demurrage causes savers to flee into hard assets, they'll create bubbles. The same landgrabbing would happen that happens today with inflation. Gesell acknowledged that and called for "Freiland" (public/socialized land). But obviously, this will not be enough, you'd have to socialize everything then, the whole stock market, and finally the whole production. That's why Freiwirtschaft is not "ein dritter Weg", a third way (besides capitalism and communism), but rather an unstable compromise, imho.

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May 04, 2013, 11:24:48 PM
 #327

Freiland was not socialized land, rather that was merely one avenue to implementation. The American Georgism is is a libertarian realization of Freiland, or at least Freiland-compatible.

EDIT: This was true of Gesell's work in general. He was a man of his times and as such an avowed statist. He though demurrage currency necessarily required a state monopoly on money. He also thought that his land-tax mechanism would have to be implemented through state ownership. Our opinion is that state monopoly is only one implementation pathway. In the case of Freigeld, p2p currency provides another more libertarian option. I personally remain optimistic that Freiland could be implemented with some sort of p2p auction to discover undeveloped value.

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May 05, 2013, 11:17:58 AM
 #328

Marxisms 'surplus value' is not interest by any stretch.  The closest approximation we would have is 'net productivity' as Marx says it is the net value a worker creates above what is needed to support the worker.  Marx then believes the capitalist steals this by oppressive manipulation of the workplace, thuggery and other unsophisticated technicians not in any way related to the nature of money.

Gesell sees through this fog and identifies hard money as the source of interest with interest defined in terms of being able to RENT, and interest then causes the manifest ill effects like unemployment, the waste of capitol in the business cycle etc etc.

As for 'real' socialism, I see no reason it would actually need to utilize any such labor theory.  Socialism has always been understood to mean 'control of the workplace and means of production by the workers', now how the workers exercise that control is wide open and in no way need it conform to some blatantly erroneous theory.

FRC:  18mAGEto3xZzfKNJPwsDVA5c2Fk5Za3nbs  http://www.freicoin.org  IRC:  Freenode #freicoin
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May 05, 2013, 02:28:42 PM
 #329


Has there been discussion about changing the retarget algo?  with the increase in hashrate, will frc get strangled with a high diff and little hashrate again?

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May 07, 2013, 07:04:47 AM
 #330

Does anyone knowledgable of Freicoin have formulas for:

1) The value of the current block reward
2) The current money supply (other variable block reward coins have a "moneysupply" field in the getinfo response)

1)

mining

before 161280   -0.000986912724567928 * block number + 254.53671561
after 161280   95.36743164

foundation

before 161280      496.03174604

2)

if cryptocoinexplorer ever comes back up its listed on there, or you can use the formula above to calculate the money supply
Thanks, this works great.

The total supply can be calculated with:

before 161280: -0.000986912724567928 * blocks * (blocks + 1) / 2 + blocks * (254.53671561 + 496.03174604)

EDIT: This doesn't factor in the demurrage.

Cryptocoin Mining Info | OTC | PGP | Twitter | freenode: dust-otc | BTC: 1F6fV4U2xnpAuKtmQD6BWpK3EuRosKzF8U
jtimon
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May 07, 2013, 09:24:06 AM
 #331

Thanks, this works great.

The total supply can be calculated with:

before 161280: -0.000986912724567928 * blocks * (blocks + 1) + blocks * (254.53671561 + 496.03174604)
after 161280: 95380700.1669 + 95.36743164 * (blocks - 161280)

Well, that doesn't account for demurrage, which occurs every block from the beginning.
After 161280 the total supply converges at 100 MM, but with lost wallets you cannot be sure that is 100 MM at any given time, even though you know all lost wallets will be recycled.
Before 161280 the total supply is more complicated, it's this chart: http://freico.in/static/images/how/coins_in_distribution.png
But sorry I don't have the formula.

2 different forms of free-money: Freicoin (free of basic interest because it's perishable), Mutual credit (no interest because it's abundant)
gabbynot
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May 07, 2013, 10:28:43 AM
 #332

Am I looking at that chart right? 10^16 is a heck of lot more than 100 million coins.
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May 07, 2013, 10:54:25 AM
 #333

Am I looking at that chart right? 10^16 is a heck of lot more than 100 million coins.

The graph is in units referred to as "satoshis" because this is what Bitcoin uses internally. If you divide 10^16 by 10^8, you get 10^8 coins, or 100,000,000.
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May 07, 2013, 11:47:31 AM
 #334


before 161280: -0.000986912724567928 * blocks * (blocks + 1) + blocks * (254.53671561 + 496.03174604)
after 161280: 95380700.1669 + 95.36743164 * (blocks - 161280)

That's probably a good enough approximation for blocks before 161280, but after 161280 the money supply is a constant 10^8 as jtimon said.
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May 07, 2013, 12:17:32 PM
 #335

I have to restrain myself heavily from saying:

this coin is the biggest piece of shit ever made

don't waste your time... fuck you occupy

If this is a ban-able offense please inform me and i will edit my post.

Not sure if it is bannable Smiley, but specifics would be nice.  Why do you dislike it?

The below post sums up my feelings pretty well Smiley

If they were NASA engineers they would have had enough money to make this into something. Digital monetarism is no good Cheesy

Sorry if I sound/sounded angry!

I don't think there is a demand. I enthusiastically proposed something like this long ago and it was completely shot down. And that was without asking for $28k in donations.

The pejorative name given it was "Inflatacoin".
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May 07, 2013, 12:50:35 PM
 #336

I'd make a NovaCoin-like (PoS/Scrypt) fork of Freicoin (+demurrage) if I knew C++.
Any news about Republicoin?

My Holy Trinity: Bitcoin (BTC) || Decred (DCR) || Counterparty (XCP)
herzmeister
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May 07, 2013, 01:26:21 PM
 #337

Marxisms 'surplus value' is not interest by any stretch.

I argued elsewhere that in a sane and honest economy, interest would always be backed by the dividends of a company, they'd essentially be the same. It's only that there are lots of arbitrators in-between today that create the same fog you mentioned, most importantly the state.

Marx's surplus value is the profit of a company which the workers are deprived of, and which they have no control of. The profit of a company is expressed in dividends. No matter if the company borrowed capital or built upon their own savings, the dividends will flow back into the economy in one way or another (mostly to their bank, either to satisfy the interest on the loan, or as savings that the bank in-turn would loan to someone else). That's why interest rates are one the most important statistic parameters in an honest market economy. There can be no other source of interest in an honest economy! Something cannot come out of nothing!

Gesell sees through this fog and identifies hard money as the source of interest with interest defined in terms of being able to RENT, and interest then causes the manifest ill effects like unemployment, the waste of capitol in the business cycle etc etc.

I agree hard money is the source of interest. There's no reason there couldn't also be 'soft' money (trust-based promises/credit created on the spot by the people) in parallel, as it happens with LETSs. Freigeld might be somewhere in-between, it may serve certain purposes, but I only see it on a local level.

In a hard money economy, business cycles would happen when nominal prices don't react and drop fast enough, as well as nominal (not real!) wages. Often that's because there's a lot of bureaucracy in the way still rooted in the industrial age.

As for 'real' socialism, I see no reason it would actually need to utilize any such labor theory.  Socialism has always been understood to mean 'control of the workplace and means of production by the workers', now how the workers exercise that control is wide open and in no way need it conform to some blatantly erroneous theory.

If there is no competition (there's a call for world-wide solidarity in communism, hence "Die Internationale"), labor theory would apply. In fact the usual argument is that the difference between the labor and the market value is what is stolen from the worker and measures the exploitation. (I do not agree because I'm not a communist. And of course worker co-operatives may also be free to compete and democratically decide what to do with the profits, so there'd be markets. Maybe Techno-Marxists like the Zeitgeist people would see this kind of competition as inefficient. But they're just pipe-dreaming imho.)

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May 07, 2013, 04:25:04 PM
 #338

Any news about Republicoin?

The current development timeline is:

1. New difficulty adjustment algorithm.
2. Freicoin Assets
3. Republicoin

Since it's pretty much just me doing development, these are progressing serially. So no, not much work has gone into Republicoin yet. I welcome contributions (ideas or code) from anyone else though.

I'm an independent developer working on bitcoin-core, making my living off community donations.
If you like my work, please consider donating yourself: 13snZ4ZyCzaL7358SmgvHGC9AxskqumNxP
Bicknellski
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May 18, 2013, 01:13:09 PM
 #339

Please close this thread it's retarded.


Really? What a Moron.

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May 18, 2013, 01:43:44 PM
 #340

Is there any reason to believe that the ROI, when measured in BTC, won't be negative?

No, not at all. Here's how it will work:
  • collect lots of $$$$$ from donations
  • release the shitcoin and mine it for some time to collect lots of freicoins
  • release promotional materials to create demand for freicoins
  • dump freicoins and disappear


Ummm still not seeing this happen... were you wrong?

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