.

[stevebc]

I think the BCT forum is not the place to find an unbiased focus group of US citizens.

There are a lot of Libertarian leaning members from the US interested in Bitcoin, who almost by definition are against government involvement in all sorts of programs.

I personally have a lot of sympathy with those types of arguments, but as a US citizen originally from Australia, I can see both sides.  Back in Oz I had some basic level of coverage for catastrophe, and had some private supplemental insurance to 'beef it up'.

When I tried to get coverage in the US between jobs I was screwed.  The rates I was being quoted were in the lines of what you could make doing a minimum wage job.

You can argue that Government health insurance for all is not the best solution in the world, but I believe it is better than relying on the whims of your employer - while at the same time paying taxes out of your paycheck each month for the Government health insurance of senior citizens!

[theymos]

When I tried to get coverage in the US between jobs I was screwed.  The rates I was being quoted were in the lines of what you could make doing a minimum wage job.

This is due to too much government regulation, not too little...

[FlipPro]

HCR was the necessary medium that our nation needed to balance out the injustices ordained by the health insurance company's and big pharmaceuticals.

End of story.

[Hawker]

When I tried to get coverage in the US between jobs I was screwed.  The rates I was being quoted were in the lines of what you could make doing a minimum wage job.

This is due to too much government regulation, not too little...

Partly true.  Its due to a broken model.  A patent is a monopoly created by government.  In the US, you don't set maximum prices for drugs so patent holders can charge whatever they want.  Properly run systems either refuse the give this patent monopoly (India) or they set a maximum price for the drug (countries that have universal heath care).  The US is lumbered with a crazy system that is called "free market" but actually is based on a monopoly provider being able to gouge sick people at the time they are most vulnerable.

[MoonShadow]

When I tried to get coverage in the US between jobs I was screwed.  The rates I was being quoted were in the lines of what you could make doing a minimum wage job.

I explained why this is a while back in this thread.  The law prohibits the insurance company that provides your employer's plan from allowing you to pay to continue your own coverage, so if you are without an employer, you're a mark.

There are some solutions, though.  One is what I do, a medical savings account.  Another is to join a cooperative, but those are often religiously based these days.

http://www.chministries.org/
http://mychristiancare.org/medi-share/
http://www.chausa.org/

[bb113]

When I tried to get coverage in the US between jobs I was screwed.  The rates I was being quoted were in the lines of what you could make doing a minimum wage job.

I explained why this is a while back in this thread.  The law prohibits the insurance company that provides your employer's plan from allowing you to pay to continue your own coverage, so if you are without an employer, you're a mark.

What law? I couldn't find it. In fact it looks like COBRA is a law that forces them to let you do it.

[cbeast]

Go Obama. A single payer system will be best in my book. Less doctors on yachts, more doctors that want to help people. The rich doctors can go be bankers if they want to get rich.

[pekv2]

Are you sure? From all the news channels, a lot of doctors are denying any person under this new healthcare. And i think up to 7-12 mayors are denying the funds to fund their state coming from federal.

[MoonShadow]

When I tried to get coverage in the US between jobs I was screwed.  The rates I was being quoted were in the lines of what you could make doing a minimum wage job.

I explained why this is a while back in this thread.  The law prohibits the insurance company that provides your employer's plan from allowing you to pay to continue your own coverage, so if you are without an employer, you're a mark.

What law? I couldn't find it. In fact it looks like COBRA is a law that forces them to let you do it.

COBRA is how they stick it to you, it's nothing like what you had before and costs at least twice as much.

[MoonShadow]

Go Obama. A single payer system will be best in my book. Less doctors on yachts, more doctors that want to help people. The rich doctors can go be bankers if they want to get rich.

Less doctors on yachts, yes.

Less competent doctors, overall.

There is a reason that one quarter of the general practicioners that I've seen in my adult life have accents, and it's not because their nation of origin was big on paying for their education.

[Hawker]

Go Obama. A single payer system will be best in my book. Less doctors on yachts, more doctors that want to help people. The rich doctors can go be bankers if they want to get rich.

Less doctors on yachts, yes.

Less competent doctors, overall.

There is a reason that one quarter of the general practicioners that I've seen in my adult life have accents, and it's not because their nation of origin was big on paying for their education.

The reason is that we pay more than hospitals in Kenya and India. 

An interesting thing is that they get their medical qualifications for roughly £40 per year.  Yes - that's about fifty dollars per year.  Then they came come to the UK where they would not get out of bed for less than £100,000 per year. 

http://www.globalmedicine.nl/index.php/studying-medicine-in/124-india

The miracle is that any doctors remain in the poor paying countries.  Its also a miracle that we pay so much more for medical education in the West.

[cbeast]

Go Obama. A single payer system will be best in my book. Less doctors on yachts, more doctors that want to help people. The rich doctors can go be bankers if they want to get rich.

Less doctors on yachts, yes.

Less competent doctors, overall.

There is a reason that one quarter of the general practicioners that I've seen in my adult life have accents, and it's not because their nation of origin was big on paying for their education.

The reason is that we pay more than hospitals in Kenya and India. 

An interesting thing is that they get their medical qualifications for roughly £40 per year.  Yes - that's about fifty dollars per year.  Then they came come to the UK where they would not get out of bed for less than £100,000 per year. 

http://www.globalmedicine.nl/index.php/studying-medicine-in/124-india

The miracle is that any doctors remain in the poor paying countries.  Its also a miracle that we pay so much more for medical education in the West.

No. Doctors make their medical decisions based on how much money they can squeeze out of the insurance, not the health of the human.

[myrkul]

No. Doctors make their medical decisions based on how much money they can squeeze out of the insurance, not the health of the human.

Which won't change under Obamacare.

[cbeast]

No. Doctors make their medical decisions based on how much money they can squeeze out of the insurance, not the health of the human.

Which won't change under Obamacare.

That's right. But it will force insurance companies to be more competitive. Forcing people to buy car insurance, health insurance, or anything for that matter is unethical unless it is all run as non-profit.

[MoonShadow]

No. Doctors make their medical decisions based on how much money they can squeeze out of the insurance, not the health of the human.

Which won't change under Obamacare.

That's right. But it will force insurance companies to be more competitive. Forcing people to buy car insurance, health insurance, or anything for that matter is unethical unless it is all run as non-profit.

Then Obamacare is also unethical.  I have already pointed out those non-profit health care cost sharing programs, which under Obamacare do not count as 'coverage' and thus all members who make over $22K per year are subject to the penalty 'tax'.

[Hawker]

No. Doctors make their medical decisions based on how much money they can squeeze out of the insurance, not the health of the human.

Which won't change under Obamacare.

That's right. But it will force insurance companies to be more competitive. Forcing people to buy car insurance, health insurance, or anything for that matter is unethical unless it is all run as non-profit.

Then Obamacare is also unethical.  I have already pointed out those non-profit health care cost sharing programs, which under Obamacare do not count as 'coverage' and thus all members who make over $22K per year are subject to the penalty 'tax'.

As an outsider with no dog in the fight, it appears that both Obamacare and the mess it replaced are wildly expensive (US pays nearly double what the UK pays for less health care).

Lets assume things stay tough economically and throwing money at the health care sector ceases to be affordable - at that point a proper health reform that controls costs will be adopted.  How do you think it to be done?

[nevafuse]

Go Obama. A single payer system will be best in my book.

You do realize you are posting in a bitcoin forum where if the currency promoted here becomes dominate, taxes will be voluntary.  I certainly won't be paying for other people's healthcare.  Don't be surprised when there's no one left to pay the bill.

[Hawker]

Go Obama. A single payer system will be best in my book.

You do realize you are posting in a bitcoin forum where if the currency promoted here becomes dominate, taxes will be voluntary.  I certainly won't be paying for other people's healthcare.  Don't be surprised when there's no one left to pay the bill.

Taxes will never be voluntary for the poor and the middle classes.  If the government can't get enough from income tax, watch it get what it wants from a value added tax and property taxes instead.

Paying for your health care via the tax system does not mean you pay for someone else, unless you are talking about payments to people who are disabled and the like.  It just means that one existing bureaucracy collects the money rather than another.  However its collected, you do have to pay for health care.

[cbeast]

Go Obama. A single payer system will be best in my book.

You do realize you are posting in a bitcoin forum where if the currency promoted here becomes dominate, taxes will be voluntary.  I certainly won't be paying for other people's healthcare.  Don't be surprised when there's no one left to pay the bill.

I almost agree, you shouldn't have to pay for my healthcare and I shoud not have to pay for the police to protect you from the guys that visit you in the night to steal your wife for ransom.

[FirstAscent]

Go Obama. A single payer system will be best in my book.

You do realize you are posting in a bitcoin forum where if the currency promoted here becomes dominate, taxes will be voluntary.  I certainly won't be paying for other people's healthcare.  Don't be surprised when there's no one left to pay the bill.

I almost agree, you shouldn't have to pay for my healthcare and I shoud not have to pay for the police to protect you from the guys that visit you in the night to steal your wife for ransom.

You obviously have no idea how insurance works, which we will use as an analogy to discuss the statement you just made. Insurance (we're not talking about taxes here) is not designed such that the premiums you pay over time will even out and roughly cover the claims you have.

That's not how insurance was designed, and that's now how insurance works.

Here's how it works: insurance is designed such that the total premiums collected allow the insurance company to cover all claims and still turn a profit.

The key point here, and the one you're missing, is from the perspective of the customer, insurance allows a premium to be paid so that if you have bad luck, you'll be covered for expenses which far exceed the premiums you pay in. Those expenses will ultimately be derived from the premiums paid by those who end up having good luck over the course of their lives. Do you see how this contradicts your ideas on police?

My suggestion: understand such things before you make claims about how healthcare and police expenses are dealt with whether it is in the form of a tax or an insurance premium. Because your post indicates a general lack of understanding on these things.