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FirstAscent
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July 03, 2012, 03:17:15 PM
 #61

Go Obama. A single payer system will be best in my book.

You do realize you are posting in a bitcoin forum where if the currency promoted here becomes dominate, taxes will be voluntary.  I certainly won't be paying for other people's healthcare.  Don't be surprised when there's no one left to pay the bill.

As in cbeast's comment below yours, you obviously don't know how insurance works. Read my post above.
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July 03, 2012, 03:22:45 PM
 #62

Go Obama. A single payer system will be best in my book.

You do realize you are posting in a bitcoin forum where if the currency promoted here becomes dominate, taxes will be voluntary.  I certainly won't be paying for other people's healthcare.  Don't be surprised when there's no one left to pay the bill.
I almost agree, you shouldn't have to pay for my healthcare and I shoud not have to pay for the police to protect you from the guys that visit you in the night to steal your wife for ransom.

You obviously have no idea how insurance works, which we will use as an analogy to discuss the statement you just made. Insurance (we're not talking about taxes here) is not designed such that the premiums you pay over time will even out and roughly cover the claims you have.

That's not how insurance was designed, and that's now how insurance works.

Here's how it works: insurance is designed such that the total premiums collected allow the insurance company to cover all claims and still turn a profit.

The key point here, and the one you're missing, is from the perspective of the customer, insurance allows a premium to be paid so that if you have bad luck, you'll be covered for expenses which far exceed the premiums you pay in. Those expenses will ultimately be derived from the premiums paid by those who end up having good luck over the course of their lives. Do you see how this contradicts your ideas on police?

My suggestion: understand such things before you make claims about how healthcare and police expenses are dealt with whether it is in the form of a tax or an insurance premium. Because your post indicates a general lack of understanding on these things.
No. A for profit insurance corporation (as any such corporation) sole duty is to make profit for the shareholders and nothing else. Period. Covering claims is something they try to avoid as much as possible or they are in violation of their shareholders trust. Try to learn something about corporations before posting this nonsense.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
FirstAscent
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July 03, 2012, 03:40:56 PM
 #63

Go Obama. A single payer system will be best in my book.

You do realize you are posting in a bitcoin forum where if the currency promoted here becomes dominate, taxes will be voluntary.  I certainly won't be paying for other people's healthcare.  Don't be surprised when there's no one left to pay the bill.
I almost agree, you shouldn't have to pay for my healthcare and I shoud not have to pay for the police to protect you from the guys that visit you in the night to steal your wife for ransom.

You obviously have no idea how insurance works, which we will use as an analogy to discuss the statement you just made. Insurance (we're not talking about taxes here) is not designed such that the premiums you pay over time will even out and roughly cover the claims you have.

That's not how insurance was designed, and that's now how insurance works.

Here's how it works: insurance is designed such that the total premiums collected allow the insurance company to cover all claims and still turn a profit.

The key point here, and the one you're missing, is from the perspective of the customer, insurance allows a premium to be paid so that if you have bad luck, you'll be covered for expenses which far exceed the premiums you pay in. Those expenses will ultimately be derived from the premiums paid by those who end up having good luck over the course of their lives. Do you see how this contradicts your ideas on police?

My suggestion: understand such things before you make claims about how healthcare and police expenses are dealt with whether it is in the form of a tax or an insurance premium. Because your post indicates a general lack of understanding on these things.
No. A for profit insurance corporation (as any such corporation) sole duty is to make profit for the shareholders and nothing else. Period. Covering claims is something they try to avoid as much as possible or they are in violation of their shareholders trust. Try to learn something about corporations before posting this nonsense.

There was zero nonsense in my post. Your avoidance of the real point I made is telling, as you're trying to draw attention away from the oversight you made in your prior statements.
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July 03, 2012, 04:02:27 PM
 #64

Taxes will never be voluntary for the poor and the middle classes.  If the government can't get enough from income tax, watch it get what it wants from a value added tax and property taxes instead.

Paying for your health care via the tax system does not mean you pay for someone else, unless you are talking about payments to people who are disabled and the like.  It just means that one existing bureaucracy collects the money rather than another.  However its collected, you do have to pay for health care.

If I'm paid via bitcoin & pay for things via bitcoin, how will the government tax me?  Not only do they not know how much to tax me, they will have no means of procuring it from me (can't tell the bank to freeze my assets).

I almost agree, you shouldn't have to pay for my healthcare and I shoud not have to pay for the police to protect you from the guys that visit you in the night to steal your wife for ransom.

You don't need to pay for me.  I'll just pay for a bodyguard service w/ the former tax money.  Although it seems expensive now, it won't be when the police monopoly disbands & starts competing in the free market.


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July 03, 2012, 04:33:43 PM
 #65

National Health Care/Insurance has always been propagandized to The People as being about Citizens being able to afford quality health care, to; not only prolong their lives; but to enrich and enhance them as well in quality of life improvements. That is pretty much the bottom line for any type of social program on its surface disseminated to The People for their approval... or silent opposition or neutrality, notwithstanding the controlled occasional outbreaks of dissent.

The Supreme Court has investigated Obamacare fully and came to a different descriptive conclusion. It is no longer about what we can affordably gain as a people, as citizens, as the supreme sovereigns in our own rights, as Lord of our Manor's,  as paying tenants masquerading as property owners, and employers of those making the decisions supposedly to only be based on the will of the people and an oath to preserve and protect (interpret?) the Constitution... but instead, it is only about the wealth they government says that government is allowed to steal from us regardless of its affordability or availability. Nay, nay I say. This should not be. It is now illegal to be living without being indebted to the state... our employees...

The Supreme Court has Held that Obamacare is a tax and it is Constitutional.

This is not what we were told or sold. We were also told health care costs would decrease, not increase, and many more lies to get this thing through.

We are being defrauded, lied to, and stolen from... everyday. Then they say its legal when we stand up to complain, and make it as expensive, time consuming, painful, dangerous, and difficult as possible to redress our grievances, just to have 9 of them say screw you guys, we love this system and your money, and we are bringing back the debtors prisons that the judicial bench warrant system didnt already take away.

This cycle repeats itself time and time again.

More and more stuff is being made illegal with criminal records being labeled and applied to the people who stand up for what is right and just... making it more difficult and sometimes impossible to have a gun.

We can only take from this that the people who refuse to listen to government wont be armed the day being armed will be needed to truly defend this nation for threats both foreign and domestic.

We pay and often beg them for this.  
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July 03, 2012, 04:34:19 PM
 #66

You don't need to pay for me.  I'll just pay for a bodyguard service w/ the former tax money.  Although it seems expensive now, it won't be when the police monopoly disbands & starts competing in the free market.

He sure as well will pay for you.

Consider:

Option #1: You pay on a per service basis. Each time you call for service, you'll be billed. If you're unlucky with crimes committed against you, you'll go broke. Thus, you'll prefer option #2; see below.

Option #2: You'll pay a premium (as in insurance), and you'll get all the coverage you need per year. If you're unlucky with crimes committed against you, you won't go broke even though the cost of servicing you exceeds the premium you pay, as the premium cbeast pays will go towards the services rendered for you.
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July 03, 2012, 04:41:49 PM
 #67

I'm European and as far as i know current USA health system is fail, if you can pay and you have an insurance then you are fine but if you are poor and without insurance then you can happily die that more or less no one care about you.

So if the new system improve the public health system then it is a good thing.

Here in Europe the public system is very good and works.
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July 03, 2012, 04:44:36 PM
 #68

Taxes will never be voluntary for the poor and the middle classes.  If the government can't get enough from income tax, watch it get what it wants from a value added tax and property taxes instead.

Paying for your health care via the tax system does not mean you pay for someone else, unless you are talking about payments to people who are disabled and the like.  It just means that one existing bureaucracy collects the money rather than another.  However its collected, you do have to pay for health care.

If I'm paid via bitcoin & pay for things via bitcoin, how will the government tax me?  Not only do they not know how much to tax me, they will have no means of procuring it from me (can't tell the bank to freeze my assets).

And how do you expect to hide any land and buildings you might own? If you don't pay property taxes, they can just seize your property. Likewise with VAT, they can monitor where natural resources are being extracted and refined.
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July 03, 2012, 05:19:44 PM
 #69

Option #2: You'll pay a premium (as in insurance), and you'll get all the coverage you need per year. If you're unlucky with crimes committed against you, you won't go broke even though the cost of servicing you exceeds the premium you pay, as the premium cbeast pays will go towards the services rendered for you.

You are correct - that is how insurance works.  I'm not arguing how insurance works, I'm arguing for choice.  I want to be able to choose the price & quality or the option to choose nothing at all.  I can't do that with government mandated monopolies.

And how do you expect to hide any land and buildings you might own? If you don't pay property taxes, they can just seize your property. Likewise with VAT, they can monitor where natural resources are being extracted and refined.

Who is going to seize my property?  I'll just have my bodyguard service prevent anyone from stealing my property.  Besides, there will be no one to do the seizing because the government will have gone broke by this point.  This wasn't possible before because accounts can be frozen & cash can be stolen.  With brainwallet, there's no bank account, hidden stash under the mattress, etc.  I can take it with me anywhere without worrying about anyone stealing it.

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July 03, 2012, 05:23:37 PM
 #70

...snip...

Who is going to seize my property?  I'll just have my bodyguard service prevent anyone from stealing my property.  Besides, there will be no one to do the seizing because the government will have gone broke by this point.  This wasn't possible before because accounts can be frozen & cash can be stolen.  With brainwallet, there's no bank account, hidden stash under the mattress, etc.  I can take it with me anywhere without worrying about anyone stealing it.

nevafuse - you do realise that you are describing a fantasy world but Obamacare is something that happens in the real world? 

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July 03, 2012, 06:13:07 PM
 #71

There are only like three Americans in this entire thread.

The rest of you don't seem to know the first thing about Obamacare, and want to pretend that it's some kind of single-payer socialist utopia.

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pekv2
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July 03, 2012, 06:15:20 PM
 #72

There are only like three Americans in this entire thread.

Lol.
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July 03, 2012, 06:16:16 PM
 #73

And how do you expect to hide any land and buildings you might own? If you don't pay property taxes, they can just seize your property. Likewise with VAT, they can monitor where natural resources are being extracted and refined.

The same way the rich do, with a tiny corporation trust and a good corporate lawyer.

Of course, that generally costs more than paying the fine.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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July 03, 2012, 06:18:26 PM
 #74

nevafuse - you do realise that you are describing a fantasy world but Obamacare is something that happens in the real world? 

To be fair, already stated my position about healthcare reform on page 2.  Figured if we were talking about healthcare on a bitcoin forum, I'd fantasize about how this would affect a bitcoin world.

How many security firms do you want to choose from? Five? Let's say five. So to equal the density of a municipal police force, that would mean five times as many officers employed at those security firms. That's five times as many officers being paid.

Sounds expensive.

Under that assumption, all industries would be prohibitively expensive because they would employ too many people.  It's probably more realistic to say it would be about the same size or less as the current police force (more efficient & not everyone would have insurance).  If each company covered 20% of the population, then each would employ ~20% of the former police force.

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July 03, 2012, 06:24:30 PM
 #75

I'm European and as far as i know current USA health system is fail, if you can pay and you have an insurance then you are fine but if you are poor and without insurance then you can happily die that more or less no one care about you.


My mother-in-law needed a heart bypass a few years ago, and since she has been disabled since birth (blind) and not yet 55, she is not eligble for medicare or medicaid.  She's covered under a SSI (Social Security Income, it's a seperate program) but they don't cover life threatening issues like that.  Don't ask me why a government funded program for the health of disabled people wouldn't cover life threatening issues, but it didn't.

She got the bypass, paid for by a charity that the heart surgen belonged to.  The heart surgen did it for free, while the charity paid for everything else in the surgery room.  The only thing that she has to pay for is her follow up visits, because the SSI won't even cover that.

My wife & I paid for those ourselves.

So even under federally funded social health care, the poor could happily die and the government not care about it; but a private charity ran by actual doctors will make up the slack for government fail.

I have no faith that Obamacare will be better, or cheaper.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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July 03, 2012, 06:46:39 PM
 #76

nevafuse - you do realise that you are describing a fantasy world but Obamacare is something that happens in the real world? 

To be fair, already stated my position about healthcare reform on page 2.  Figured if we were talking about healthcare on a bitcoin forum, I'd fantasize about how this would affect a bitcoin world.

...snip...

So you did.  I agree with everything you said; allowing patent monopolies to drug companies without price control is why they have margins of over 20%.

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July 03, 2012, 07:29:15 PM
 #77

nevafuse - you do realise that you are describing a fantasy world but Obamacare is something that happens in the real world?  

To be fair, already stated my position about healthcare reform on page 2.  Figured if we were talking about healthcare on a bitcoin forum, I'd fantasize about how this would affect a bitcoin world.

How many security firms do you want to choose from? Five? Let's say five. So to equal the density of a municipal police force, that would mean five times as many officers employed at those security firms. That's five times as many officers being paid.

Sounds expensive.

Under that assumption, all industries would be prohibitively expensive because they would employ too many people.  It's probably more realistic to say it would be about the same size or less as the current police force (more efficient & not everyone would have insurance).  If each company covered 20% of the population, then each would employ ~20% of the former police force.

It's so easy to predict your responses. But actually, I was hoping you were smarter than that. Oh well.

Tell me now, as you have two choices:

1. One security firm per city or region, in which case, you only have one choice.

2. Multiple security firms per region, but at reduced density per firm. That of course means a slower response time.

In your example, we have ~20% the density. That would be a slower response time, as the location of events to respond to is random and unpredictable.
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July 03, 2012, 07:45:50 PM
 #78

One of the "problems" I see with th healthcare debate is about the private sectors role. Many tout a free market approach and want the government to stay out of this market. This position assumes that there is a profitable market in the first place.
Why would there be profit in caring for the sick and poor? I don't think there is. Like education, these things cost money and come with no guarantee of payoff.  Sure, if you limit yourself to only rich patients you will make money. Sick people will give anything to not die. But a poor person who needs expensive surgery or drugs will never pay you back. A pure free market would likely see the majority of us die penny-less, having only received a tiny percent of needed treatment before running out of cash. Is that what we want? Maybe we do. But know that you are one illness away from impoverishing your family.
Could anyone explain how for profit businesses are going to give poor sick people money at a profit, cause I don't see how?

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July 03, 2012, 07:49:04 PM
 #79

One of the "problems" I see with th healthcare debate is about the private sectors role. Many tout a free market approach and want the government to stay out of this market. This position assumes that there is a profitable market in the first place.
Why would there be profit in caring for the sick and poor? I don't think there is. Like education, these things cost money and come with no guarantee of payoff.  Sure, if you limit yourself to only rich patients you will make money. Sick people will give anything to not die. But a poor person who needs expensive surgery or drugs will never pay you back. A pure free market would likely see the majority of us die penny-less, having only received a tiny percent of needed treatment before running out of cash. Is that what we want? Maybe we do. But know that you are one illness away from impoverishing your family.
Could anyone explain how for profit businesses are going to give poor sick people money at a profit, cause I don't see how?

The theory is that the poor can depend on charity. 

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July 03, 2012, 08:07:03 PM
 #80

One of the "problems" I see with th healthcare debate is about the private sectors role. Many tout a free market approach and want the government to stay out of this market. This position assumes that there is a profitable market in the first place.
Why would there be profit in caring for the sick and poor? I don't think there is. Like education, these things cost money and come with no guarantee of payoff.  Sure, if you limit yourself to only rich patients you will make money. Sick people will give anything to not die. But a poor person who needs expensive surgery or drugs will never pay you back. A pure free market would likely see the majority of us die penny-less, having only received a tiny percent of needed treatment before running out of cash. Is that what we want? Maybe we do. But know that you are one illness away from impoverishing your family.
Could anyone explain how for profit businesses are going to give poor sick people money at a profit, cause I don't see how?

The theory is that the poor can depend on charity. 
whew, well it will all work out then. We will only need the majority of about 2.2 trillion.  Oh, that's per year.
Can I get mine upfront? I may only need less than $1mil. Please give me the first million now and I will get back to the charity if I need more. TY! Grin

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=Annual+healthcare+cost+in+US

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