BFL ASIC is bogus

[smoothie]

Im going to buy two to keep my feet warm in winter while sitting at the computer 

LOL!

[Ilikeham]

I have to admit, I've been a chip fabrication nut for 30 years and I just can't figure out how the hell they can build this within the scope of power they claim. They have (again in my opinion) zero chance at getting access to 45nm or lower wafer starts with this small a market, so that leaves the larger processes only. Given that, the power doesn't add up. Even at 45 I'm thinking the power claims wouldn't add up.

But anyhow, it's put huge uncertainty in the mining market and may have been partially responsible for keeping difficulty down as people eschew the purchases of new hardware either GPU or other.

Guess we'll see.

Anyone taking real bets on this? I'll take a piece of the triumvirate .. that they miss POWER, HASH and DELIVERY DATE claims as they are now.

[nedbert9]

I have to admit, I've been a chip fabrication nut for 30 years and I just can't figure out how the hell they can build this within the scope of power they claim. They have (again in my opinion) zero chance at getting access to 45nm or lower wafer starts with this small a market, so that leaves the larger processes only. Given that, the power doesn't add up. Even at 45 I'm thinking the power claims wouldn't add up.

But anyhow, it's put huge uncertainty in the mining market and may have been partially responsible for keeping difficulty down as people eschew the purchases of new hardware either GPU or other.

Guess we'll see.

Anyone taking real bets on this? I'll take a piece of the triumvirate .. that they miss POWER, HASH and DELIVERY DATE claims as they are now.

Couple of disturbing facts.

In the SC line announcement BFL states that they've only had, "one minor blemish," in their track record which was missing their power and performance claims for the Single.  According to that logic missing the power and performance claim for the SC line would also be a minor issue.

Sadly, a continuous missing of specs only cultivates the desire for alternative vendors.  Only one problem.  No alternative vendor exists at the moment.  There's only so much capital investment in Bitcoin mining and the longer BFL continues to be the only sane choice for mining profitability the less likely other options are to rise.  BFL's comment about free market competition, "Competitors naturally emerge in profitable free markets," glosses over the finer points of Bitcoin mining and proves false under certain conditions.

ASIC would have been a better proposition on multiple fronts if it were community developed.  If profitability post ASIC equalizes to current profitability, a best case scenario IMO, all that has been done is a profit extraction by BFL of Bitcoin mining in return for an increased obsolescence timeline.  If this holds true and the only thing we gained as a community is a lengthened obsolescence curve that is hard to quantify on the bottom line then it would have been just fine, and less costly as a whole, for a community developed ASIC on 90 or even 130nm. 

[ElectricMucus]

Even a 180nm full custom chip would blow away today's fpga solutions and - I am almost certain of that - the actually to be released BFL products (if any).
FYI all those small microcontroller ICs from PIC to AVR to the Parallax Propeller and so on are done in 180nm and they are very competitive.

[Fiyasko]

What will you bump with if they turn out to be accurate to the pre-released specs?

That I have proven the Riemann Hypothesis.

For those who don't know (including me):  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riemann_hypothesis

Im being serious here. I have read that thing twice now, And have no fucking idea what you could use it for/what the hell it is, Could someone graciously explain to me WTF that is?

[ElectricMucus]

What will you bump with if they turn out to be accurate to the pre-released specs?

That I have proven the Riemann Hypothesis.

For those who don't know (including me):  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riemann_hypothesis

Im being serious here. I have read that thing twice now, And have no fucking idea what you could use it for/what the hell it is, Could someone graciously explain to me WTF that is?

tbh I don't quite understand it myself, I've read a book on the subject titled "music of the primes".
It's "uses" are limited, and I don't think there really is something to do with it other than in math. You could for example derive a function to know the exact quantity of prime numbers below some particular value without calculating the primes themselves. (Don't nail me on that though, might be wrong)

[Vorksholk]

I personally think the only thing about the ASIC Jalepeno that isn't going to deliver is the coffee warmer part. The hashing power, as I see it, is possible, but good luck warming a coffee cup on a USB3.0. Espresso maybe?

[ElectricMucus]

I personally think the only thing about the ASIC Jalepeno that isn't going to deliver is the coffee warmer part. The hashing power, as I see it, is possible, but good luck warming a coffee cup on a USB3.0. Espresso maybe?

You'd have to do better than that.
We have gone to great length explaining why we think BFLs numbers are fallacious. So you better address those arguments or at least provide some of your own.

[cablepair]

the speeds BFL posted for their ASIC units are just educated guesses, pure and simple.


Will they offer ASIC based Bitcoin mining hardware?

Probably

Will It Ship in 2012

No Way



The speeds they came up with are just something they pulled out of their asses via mathematical equations, they dont want you to buy products like the modminer quad, x6500, icarus and ztex

they want you to wait for another year for their asic instead of spending money on very profitable fpga's that you can get within weeks

they want to continue their strangle hold on this market (its starting to loosen) so they come up with these lies, give the community something to dream about, people believe their fallacies not because they deliver on all their promises but because they deliver just enough to keep everyone believing.



Don't worry they are not the only people working on ASIC based mining hardware (thank God)

You will know the real thing when you see it , because there will be a working prototype - not just an over inflated BFL design with some hypothetical speeds


stay tuned my friends

[rjk]

the speeds BFL posted for their ASIC units are just educated guesses, pure and simple.


Will they offer ASIC based Bitcoin mining hardware?

Probably

Will It Ship in 2012

No Way



The speeds they came up with are just something they pulled out of their asses via mathematical equations, they dont want you to buy products like the modminer quad, x6500, icarus and ztex

they want you to wait for another year for their asic instead of spending money on very profitable fpga's that you can get within weeks

they want to continue their strangle hold on this market (its starting to loosen) so they come up with these lies, give the community something to dream about, people believe their fallacies not because they deliver on all their promises but because they deliver just enough to keep everyone believing.



Don't worry they are not the only people working on ASIC based mining hardware (thank God)

You will know the real thing when you see it , because there will be a working prototype - not just an over inflated BFL design with some hypothetical speeds


stay tuned my friends

I can understand this sentiment from a common users' perspective, or even perhaps that of someone more learned, but regardless - it isn't anything you as a competitor should be saying in so many words. You have no proof positive or negative of how much work has or has not gone into the design and/or production of said devices, and claiming otherwise is detrimental to your own business as well.

[RoadStress]

the speeds BFL posted for their ASIC units are just educated guesses, pure and simple.


Will they offer ASIC based Bitcoin mining hardware?

Probably

Will It Ship in 2012

No Way



The speeds they came up with are just something they pulled out of their asses via mathematical equations, they dont want you to buy products like the modminer quad, x6500, icarus and ztex

they want you to wait for another year for their asic instead of spending money on very profitable fpga's that you can get within weeks

they want to continue their strangle hold on this market (its starting to loosen) so they come up with these lies, give the community something to dream about, people believe their fallacies not because they deliver on all their promises but because they deliver just enough to keep everyone believing.



Don't worry they are not the only people working on ASIC based mining hardware (thank God)

You will know the real thing when you see it , because there will be a working prototype - not just an over inflated BFL design with some hypothetical speeds


stay tuned my friends

I can understand this sentiment from a common users' perspective, or even perhaps that of someone more learned, but regardless - it isn't anything you as a competitor should be saying in so many words. You have no proof positive or negative of how much work has or has not gone into the design and/or production of said devices, and claiming otherwise is detrimental to your own business as well.

I'm only a reader of this forum, but i must reply here. Thank you rjk for this kind of replies! cablepair if you have no hardproof of what you are claiming then it's my right to say that you have pulled that reply out of your ass. (i'm not a BFL fanboi)

[ElectricMucus]

I'm only a reader of this forum, but i must reply here. Thank you rjk for this kind of replies! cablepair if you have no hardproof of what you are claiming then it's my right to say that you have pulled that reply out of your ass. (i'm not a BFL fanboi)

read up on your trolling techniques.
https://encyclopediadramatica.se/Prove_me_wrong

[k9quaint]

I'm only a reader of this forum, ...

That should read that you have signed up for this forum. If you had read it, you would know that the physics don't add up for at least one of BFL's products.

[RoadStress]

I'm only a reader of this forum, ...

That should read that you have signed up for this forum. If you had read it, you would know that the physics don't add up for at least one of BFL's products.

Ok then i will add to my statement that he should be blamed only because he is a competitor on the bitcoin mining hardware market. In all his posts about BFL's ASIC he is really trying to make a point against them. That's what is wrong. If he would have said something like "i don't believe them period" then it's another story.

@ElectricMucus 37 posts and i'm a troll. ok!

[cablepair]

the speeds BFL posted for their ASIC units are just educated guesses, pure and simple.


Will they offer ASIC based Bitcoin mining hardware?

Probably

Will It Ship in 2012

No Way



The speeds they came up with are just something they pulled out of their asses via mathematical equations, they dont want you to buy products like the modminer quad, x6500, icarus and ztex

they want you to wait for another year for their asic instead of spending money on very profitable fpga's that you can get within weeks

they want to continue their strangle hold on this market (its starting to loosen) so they come up with these lies, give the community something to dream about, people believe their fallacies not because they deliver on all their promises but because they deliver just enough to keep everyone believing.



Don't worry they are not the only people working on ASIC based mining hardware (thank God)

You will know the real thing when you see it , because there will be a working prototype - not just an over inflated BFL design with some hypothetical speeds


stay tuned my friends

I can understand this sentiment from a common users' perspective, or even perhaps that of someone more learned, but regardless - it isn't anything you as a competitor should be saying in so many words. You have no proof positive or negative of how much work has or has not gone into the design and/or production of said devices, and claiming otherwise is detrimental to your own business as well.

I'm only a reader of this forum, but i must reply here. Thank you rjk for this kind of replies! cablepair if you have no hardproof of what you are claiming then it's my right to say that you have pulled that reply out of your ass. (i'm not a BFL fanboi)

I made my statements based on BFL's track record and my own extensive and current knowledge of ASIC/sASIC developments in regards to SHA256 processing and of course Bitcoin mining.

It's not hard to get an equation to give you the results you want to have, a prototype is a different story.

[k9quaint]

I'm only a reader of this forum, ...

That should read that you have signed up for this forum. If you had read it, you would know that the physics don't add up for at least one of BFL's products.

Ok then i will add to my statement that he should be blamed only because he is a competitor on the bitcoin mining hardware market. In all his posts about BFL's ASIC he is really trying to make a point against them.

Physics don't care if he is or is not a competitor. That should be irrelevant to the discussion. Either the physics are right, or they are not.
In all threads about BFL's ASICs the posts should make points about BFL ASICs. You should address the criticisms themselves instead of trying to discredit the person posting them.

[Vorksholk]

I personally think the only thing about the ASIC Jalepeno that isn't going to deliver is the coffee warmer part. The hashing power, as I see it, is possible, but good luck warming a coffee cup on a USB3.0. Espresso maybe?

You'd have to do better than that.
We have gone to great length explaining why we think BFLs numbers are fallacious. So you better address those arguments or at least provide some of your own.

Basically as said before, they could be using multiple chips, each chip with only a 3-5x performance increase over FPGA, which seems logical and perfectly possible in an ASIC. 5W may seem pretty hopeful, but I bet they can pull it off. ASIC chips can, as I've heard, deal with pretty high temps, so cooling won't be quite as important, meaning the fan would have a lower powerdraw. I'm no expert at all, and the power draw does seem a bit low, however I can certainly see a 3-5x performance increase to ASIC chips, even with a bit older of a production technique (like 130).

[ElectricMucus]

I personally think the only thing about the ASIC Jalepeno that isn't going to deliver is the coffee warmer part. The hashing power, as I see it, is possible, but good luck warming a coffee cup on a USB3.0. Espresso maybe?

You'd have to do better than that.
We have gone to great length explaining why we think BFLs numbers are fallacious. So you better address those arguments or at least provide some of your own.

Basically as said before, they could be using multiple chips, each chip with only a 3-5x performance increase over FPGA, which seems logical and perfectly possible in an ASIC. 5W may seem pretty hopeful, but I bet they can pull it off. ASIC chips can, as I've heard, deal with pretty high temps, so cooling won't be quite as important, meaning the fan would have a lower powerdraw. I'm no expert at all, and the power draw does seem a bit low, however I can certainly see a 3-5x performance increase to ASIC chips, even with a bit older of a production technique (like 130).

Alright, I pretty much already gone into that as well but again:

• 'older' production techniques are pretty much still state of the art on low volume ASICs. While 180nm is common and 130nm at a premium.
  
• The costs for a full custom ASICs in 180nm are beyond the market for BFL products (~10mil USD)
• There are no complete workflow software packackes available which can enable designing the chips without enough manpower.
• A fpga conversion 'ASIC' cannot meet the specs (at all feature sizes) and while it is the most likely chip to be used that would mean BFL would (again) exaggerated their promises.

[Dargo]

Well if they don't meet spec, it's worth remembering they have stated on this forum that this is a reason for which you can get a refund.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=89523.0

"Regarding refunds and charge back policy:  All sales are final unless we fail to perform.  That includes both performance and shipping targets.  60 days past target and we'll happily refund your purchase."

I guess "performance" is a bit vague, but I take that to mean they need to meet spec.

At this point I'm getting tired of speculating...time to just wait and see what they come up with!

[ElectricMucus]

"Regarding refunds and charge back policy:  All sales are final unless we fail to perform.  That includes both performance and shipping targets.  60 days past target and we'll happily refund your purchase."

I guess "performance" is a bit vague, but I take that to mean they need to meet spec.

Easy:
According to BFL believers: Hashes/Jule and Hashes/sec
According to BFL: Hashes/sec only and only in the "Ballpark"

Several  estimations on what a real product would be capable of were done, I think even in this thread. But one thing: It is pretty clear that BFL deliberately left out numbers on the power requirement in order to encourage speculation. The only thing we have is a explanation from USB power limits which are fallacious in the first place since no possible accessible technology can provide it even in theory.