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Author Topic: Personal contribution of 5,000 BTC to affected Bitcoinica customers  (Read 11623 times)
Bitcoin Oz
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July 14, 2012, 04:27:15 AM
 #41

Im just putting this out there. If this money is the result of selling bitcoinica or your employment thereof the administrators of it when it becomes bankrupt can claw back funds up to two years prior from its former owners/directors etc.

No wonder you are getting rid of the funds Smiley

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Phinnaeus Gage
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July 14, 2012, 04:28:15 AM
 #42

All of my interactions with Zhou have been first rate.
He has been straight forward and easy to deal with every time and I still trust his integrity.

I wish I could say the same about the Intersango group.

Damn you, Roger! I sincerely trust you, but now have to reweigh my thoughts on Zhou, of which I've openly switched my position several times already.

~Bruno~
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July 14, 2012, 04:40:18 AM
 #43

You should really keep the funds for when the intersango guys try to sue you:(

This is not your fault.

They can't sue him - he is a child.

And how do you know it's not his fault?  He had more inside knowledge than anyone and it would have been easy for him to hack in and steal the coins and destroy the database.  The police were never called for some reason...

intersango never called the police for some reason... Hmm...

This, to me, is the most damning evidence. Why would statists like the InterSango guys, who have made so much noise about being "registered" and "regulated" never call the police who are supposed to protect them from exactly this kind of fraud?

Forget the scammer tag...how about a "felon" tag?

Scammer tag is red Xs. What would a felon tag be?

Black Xs?
Na, black I's.  Think, jail cell themed.   Wink

Na! XOXOXO   Think cell buddy named Jerome.
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July 14, 2012, 04:42:37 AM
 #44

Will be interesting to see the blockchain forensics that come out of all this.

Disclosure: The donation address is hosted on Blockchain.info.

EDIT: Block chain or Blockchain.info? LOL.

How do you know?

If the transaction is relayed by 127.0.0.1 means that the origin is blockhain.info? if so it seems that all directions of the branch that goes to the donation are blockchain.info

I created the donation address on My Wallet, which uses Blockchain.info's own JSON-RPC API to push transactions.

Founder of NameTerrific (https://www.nameterrific.com/). Co-founder of CoinJar (https://coinjar.io/)

Donations for my future Bitcoin projects: 19Uk3tiD5XkBcmHyQYhJxp9QHoub7RosVb
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July 14, 2012, 04:45:51 AM
 #45

Im just putting this out there. If this money is the result of selling bitcoinica or your employment thereof the administrators of it when it becomes bankrupt can claw back funds up to two years prior from its former owners/directors etc.

No wonder you are getting rid of the funds Smiley

I didn't sell the company. xWaylab Inc. is still mine (and I acquired all the outstanding shares from other shareholders before the sale of Bitcoinica).

I sold Bitcoinica.com domain name and intellectual properties of the site. All the financial accounts were re-created (including Mt. Gox account) after the sale.

So your statement shouldn't be applicable. I always have the purchase agreement to back up in court.

Founder of NameTerrific (https://www.nameterrific.com/). Co-founder of CoinJar (https://coinjar.io/)

Donations for my future Bitcoin projects: 19Uk3tiD5XkBcmHyQYhJxp9QHoub7RosVb
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July 14, 2012, 04:47:35 AM
 #46

Will be interesting to see the blockchain forensics that come out of all this.

Disclosure: The donation address is hosted on Blockchain.info.

EDIT: Block chain or Blockchain.info? LOL.

How do you know?

If the transaction is relayed by 127.0.0.1 means that the origin is blockhain.info? if so it seems that all directions of the branch that goes to the donation are blockchain.info

I created the donation address on My Wallet, which uses Blockchain.info's own JSON-RPC API to push transactions.

ah ok, I thought you were referring to the address that made the 100btc donation

Sorry for my bad english Wink
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July 14, 2012, 04:50:18 AM
 #47

Im just putting this out there. If this money is the result of selling bitcoinica or your employment thereof the administrators of it when it becomes bankrupt can claw back funds up to two years prior from its former owners/directors etc.

No wonder you are getting rid of the funds Smiley

I didn't sell the company. xWaylab Inc. is still mine (and I acquired all the outstanding shares from other shareholders before the sale of Bitcoinica).

I sold Bitcoinica.com domain name and intellectual properties of the site. All the financial accounts were re-created (including Mt. Gox account) after the sale.

So your statement shouldn't be applicable. I always have the purchase agreement to back up in court.

I think it should be obvious that they dont own it till the passwords are changed.
In the same way people dont own wallet.dat untill you transfer the coins onto a different private key.

If bitcoin has taught me one thing its this.

Someone involved in this shitfight has been criminally negligent in failing to do this.

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July 14, 2012, 05:08:38 AM
 #48

Im just putting this out there. If this money is the result of selling bitcoinica or your employment thereof the administrators of it when it becomes bankrupt can claw back funds up to two years prior from its former owners/directors etc.

No wonder you are getting rid of the funds Smiley

I didn't sell the company. xWaylab Inc. is still mine (and I acquired all the outstanding shares from other shareholders before the sale of Bitcoinica).

I sold Bitcoinica.com domain name and intellectual properties of the site. All the financial accounts were re-created (including Mt. Gox account) after the sale.

So your statement shouldn't be applicable. I always have the purchase agreement to back up in court.

I think it should be obvious that they dont own it till the passwords are changed.
In the same way people dont own wallet.dat untill you transfer the coins onto a different private key.

If bitcoin has taught me one thing its this.

Someone involved in this shitfight has been criminally negligent in failing to do this.

The LastPass account was created after the sale. I was only an employee at that time.

Founder of NameTerrific (https://www.nameterrific.com/). Co-founder of CoinJar (https://coinjar.io/)

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July 14, 2012, 05:25:34 AM
 #49

Quote
Dear Bitcoinica team,

Please stop using my name "Ryan" for any outbound emails. It's my de facto Christian name.

Also, stop mentioning my "plan". I have received no contact from you for almost two month and it's simply wrong for you to judge my involvement in Bitcoinica either morally or legally.

I'll resign immediately when 50% of funds have been paid back, or upon receiving your instruction, whichever is earlier.

I reserve the right to protect my reputation.

EDIT: Amir has clarified that the first name is a random one due to Gmail's naming policy. He didn't intend to mean me personally. He has changed it to "Jason Bitcoinica".

I'm confused! How did you go from the above to the below?

Quote
No. I received this email. I was still in the verify@bitcoinica.com mailing list.

I also read it as they have not contacted you in almost two months, but you were able to contact them to give them a heads-up.

~Bruno~
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July 14, 2012, 05:42:14 AM
 #50

Quote
Dear Bitcoinica team,

Please stop using my name "Ryan" for any outbound emails. It's my de facto Christian name.

Also, stop mentioning my "plan". I have received no contact from you for almost two month and it's simply wrong for you to judge my involvement in Bitcoinica either morally or legally.

I'll resign immediately when 50% of funds have been paid back, or upon receiving your instruction, whichever is earlier.

I reserve the right to protect my reputation.

EDIT: Amir has clarified that the first name is a random one due to Gmail's naming policy. He didn't intend to mean me personally. He has changed it to "Jason Bitcoinica".

I'm confused! How did you go from the above to the below?

Quote
No. I received this email. I was still in the verify@bitcoinica.com mailing list.

I also read it as they have not contacted you in almost two months, but you were able to contact them to give them a heads-up.

~Bruno~


Clarification: They have not contacted me anything that's useful for Bitcoinica customers. (i.e. "Hey what's up" doesn't count.)

The mailing list is a broadcast mailing list, i.e. any email received by verify@bitcoinica.com will be forwarded to a few addresses, including mine. I have their email address so I can send email to them at any time.

Founder of NameTerrific (https://www.nameterrific.com/). Co-founder of CoinJar (https://coinjar.io/)

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July 14, 2012, 05:59:38 AM
 #51

thanks for stepping up Z

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
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July 14, 2012, 06:14:28 AM
 #52

Quote
Dear Bitcoinica team,

Please stop using my name "Ryan" for any outbound emails. It's my de facto Christian name.

Also, stop mentioning my "plan". I have received no contact from you for almost two month and it's simply wrong for you to judge my involvement in Bitcoinica either morally or legally.

I'll resign immediately when 50% of funds have been paid back, or upon receiving your instruction, whichever is earlier.

I reserve the right to protect my reputation.

EDIT: Amir has clarified that the first name is a random one due to Gmail's naming policy. He didn't intend to mean me personally. He has changed it to "Jason Bitcoinica".

I'm confused! How did you go from the above to the below?

Quote
No. I received this email. I was still in the verify@bitcoinica.com mailing list.

I also read it as they have not contacted you in almost two months, but you were able to contact them to give them a heads-up.

~Bruno~


Clarification: They have not contacted me anything that's useful for Bitcoinica customers. (i.e. "Hey what's up" doesn't count.)

The mailing list is a broadcast mailing list, i.e. any email received by verify@bitcoinica.com will be forwarded to a few addresses, including mine. I have their email address so I can send email to them at any time.

Will you kindly stop making sense, Zhou Tong? It confuses me.

Thanks, bud. Later.

~Bruno~
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July 14, 2012, 06:52:06 AM
 #53

Zhou I'm going through your code as we speak, gives me contradicting feelings :
 - you made a really good app, in an original way, but
 - your code is dirty and some parts are really insecure (:otp_required in attr_accessible? I don't think so.)

But still, kudos for making such a cool app with original features! (and also kudos to giving back some of your profits to people who lost money in the whole bitcoinica thing)

Thanks for the feedback. I'm actively improving my coding skills and I admit that I could do a much better job on Bitcoinica. I failed at DRY, obviously.

Since I have a much longer timeframe for NameTerrific (5 months, not 4 days), I'm quite confident in my code quality and maintainability for my new project.

Perfect is the enemy of good. Zouh, you did a well enough job to get all these people to use your site.

Yes, you made some mistakes (like not hiring a security consultant), but that's part of the business. I'm sure you won't make those kind of mistakes again.

If you look at something you've coded six months ago and don't feel "Oh, it's crap, how could I have written this piece of shit code", then you haven't learned anything in the this time. Live & learn, improve and grow.

Thanks for this wonderful gesture, and all the best.

Please do not pm me, use ron@bitcoin.org.il instead
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almackska
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July 14, 2012, 08:41:21 AM
 #54

Thanks Zhou! I hope you can help me because being in the "Hash not found" club is really depressing.


UPDATE: Received some coins, Thanks Zhou! I am very thankful to get something back! Although it was a tiny fraction of my total loss, you have redeemed yourself. Now to get the rest back from those idiots you sold the company too.
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July 14, 2012, 09:57:25 AM
 #55

Can you explain why you sold 35k USD LR for RMB at a really low price(6.2, usually 6.6-6.7) last night?  
Also sold a bunch of Bitcoins ?
Why so hurry ?

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July 14, 2012, 12:51:57 PM
 #56

I'm getting no where so far with my Intersango team claim for 1,000 BTC that I lost due to Swaps being introduced on 2012 02 16 which unfairly & illegally changed the TOS under which I'd deposited & opened my positions & made my positions untenable at a time when you were still claiming to be & acting as "the founder & CEO of Bitcoinica" which is why I trusted you & not some secret, unknown, mysterious cabal of new owners/operators.

On 13/2/12 when I held a long position with Bitcoinica of 5,000 BTC @ a base price of $5.8540
My margin deposit was 4,000 BTC + $3,002 = $22,665 & the forced liquidation (ZT) price was $2.915
With the current price of $7.50 my position would have been immensely in profit & was never in any danger of being force liquidated.

Anyway, here's my claim again in public & I shall also enter it on your personal claims site for consideration:

Hi Genjix,

I submitted this claim to verify@bitcoinica.com on the 11th of June 2012, as yet I have had no response (except general auto ones), it is now nearly 1 month later & 4 months since Zhoutong agreed that Bitcoinica would issue me with a refund, I realize that you are very busy but I would very much appreciate a confirmation from you that who ever it is that owns Bitcoinica now & back then when this happened is going to honor Zhoutong's promise to make this refund & the approx time that it will take you to process this matter that pre-dates the final incident that ended up affecting so many others.

Many thanks,

Forum & Bitcoinica ID: Otoh

On 13/2/12 I held a long position with Bitcoinica of 5,000 BTC @ a base price of $5.8540
My margin deposit was 4,000 BTC + $3,002 = $22,665 & the forced liquidation (ZT) price was $2.915

I entered in to this position in good faith under the terms & conditions as stated by Zhou Tong at the time & previously, I intended to hold this position for the very long term & even add more margin in order to the lower the already low ZT price, at the time Zhou Tong was posting in the forums with his ID still claiming to be the 'Founder & CEO of Bitcoinica' & purportedly acting as such.

Then on 16/2/12 Swaps interest was introduced draining away my margin balance by changing the TOS under which it had been deposited & hence making my position long term untenable - I tried all I could to get out of this blatantly unfair situation & eventually seeing no alternative I liquidated the position for a loss of $4,842 which at the time was 1,000 BTC, note that my margin was by then all in dollars as was my loss.

As I stated at the time on the Bitcoinica forum thread, which I will attach, to change the TOS under which money is deposited & positions opened without allowing customers to withdraw it all without any loss is both unfair & illegal so I would like to lodge a claim for full reimbursement of my funds that were retained by Bitcoinica due to this act, a total of $4,842 (or 1,000 BTC as you prefer).

Zhou Tong has already agreed in his post & reply to me of 22/3/12 to refund the Swap's interest which was $456 of the $4,842

I look forward to your acknowledgement of this claim at your earliest convenience & restitution in full asap.

Many thanks,

Otoh


Quote from: Otoh link=topic=42267.msg898334#
msg898334 date=1336930121
a couple of days ago finally got out of the nightmare scenario of being trapped in a large high $5s base price long position on Bitcoinica which would have been fine as my ZT price was in the $2s originally & I was happy to wait long term & could have kept it at 1:1 leverage np, until that was he unilaterally decided to start taxing long positions with swap charges, to me this is just Bitcoin wild west no rules rule - I'm waiting to see if his stated registration goes through because once it does I intend to claim back that swap money just removed from my account by changing without notice the conditions under which it was deposited & making my position long term untenable so that I had to close it for a big loss as I believe this sort of action is totally illegitimate in any jurisdiction

anyone else who's suffered because of this pse to let me know & we can coordinate to recuperate this blatant rip off with damages also for overall position loss if it hadn't happened once we were locked in

it's so nice atm to finally be out of that & tomorrow off for a long weekend without having to follow every price movement & the feeling of having trusted way too much money to someone who just makes the rules up to suit themselves as they go along, honestly I was amazed to get anything back out at all in that scenario - never again!


We can offer a refund if you were charged any swap for a position that you established before the rule change provided there is no new positions established after that. By continue using our service, you have already signaled the acceptance of the new rule.


Well this seems a good a time as any to claim your offer on this, yes I would like to be refunded for all swaps that I was charged on positions that I had before the rule change, you know what they are

Secondly I do not accept that by trying to get out of my position means that I accept your arbitrary change in the terms of service under which I deposited money with you, it is illegal for you to do so, therefor I hold you personally responsible along with any partners & new owners for the full amount of the swaps charged to me plus having to then liquidate my untenable position that you put me in, total loss getting on for $5,000

I was waiting for your registration to go through before pursuing this & then left it for a while so you could recover from the Linox hack but now events show it needs to be dealt with asap, so kindly confirm that you will stand by your word & refund what I have lost due to your actions

Many thanks, karma as I'm sure you are appreciating doesn't go away, it comes around & stronger each time until a just restitution is made, your call


yesterday I received this reply from ZT by PM which I'm sure he won't mind me quoting here:

You need to contact Bitcoinica Consultancy for this, and make sure you outline all the losses you incurred.

I started the swap system under Bitcoinica LP's approval and I was a full power representative at that time. However I did not have financial incentive - I can't touch a single cent of your swap money.

OK, now I need to think about this & how to proceed, I don't actually really even understand it, any helpful input would be welcome, many thanks ZT for responding, so it seems though that Bitcoin Consultancy which I now guess is called Bitcoinica Consultancy were not the owners & operators until after Zhou Tong's promise of the 22nd March 2012 to refund for swaps, but that he had already secretly sold Bitcoinica = Bitcoinica LP to T. Seale's investment group & was at that time effectively an employee of them

"Bitcoin Consultancy was first retained to perform a comprehensive security audit on March 27 and they became owners and operators of Bitcoinica LP on April 24. As General Partner, they have exclusive legal authority to manage the company." - Quoted from tseale speaking for the investment group that took over from ZT



I believe that when they take over the company, they should continue the unresolved disputes with customers. I designed the system because someone asked me to, and I gave the promise on behalf of the company because I had power to do so and it's consistent with Bitcoinica's usual dispute resolution attitudes.

If the amount is not large, I think they will honor. Otherwise you may need to explain very carefully to make it reasonable.

Many thanks, I shall explain it very carefully & reasonably, my previous posts & screen shots show how much I lost due to the T&C under which I had deposited money & opened positions with Bitcoinica being changed without notice to then make those same positions untenable, I have filled a claim for a token holding on the Bitcoinica site which I assume would be the first steps in establishing that my ID, email, password, etc is unaffected by the latest events - I appreciate your open & honorable manner of dealing with this & sincerely hope that those who asked you to implement the changes that caused me this unfair loss also recognize their responsibility to put this right, respect your promise at the time on their behalf to do so & that we can reach a fair & just conclusion here.



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Bitcoin Oz
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July 14, 2012, 12:59:18 PM
 #57

Can you explain why you sold 35k USD LR for RMB at a really low price(6.2, usually 6.6-6.7) last night?  
Also sold a bunch of Bitcoins ?
Why so hurry ?

Im guessing he can escape being sued in china.

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July 14, 2012, 04:57:53 PM
 #58

Can you explain why you sold 35k USD LR for RMB at a really low price(6.2, usually 6.6-6.7) last night?  
Also sold a bunch of Bitcoins ?
Why so hurry ?

How do you know?

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
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July 14, 2012, 05:47:11 PM
 #59

Zhou,

If your claim system is separate from the Bitconica/Intersango system isn't there a possibility of duplicate payouts from you and also Intersango?  How are you handling this?

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July 14, 2012, 06:11:02 PM
 #60

First of all, I would like to clarify that I had zero financial interest in Bitcoinica since January 2012.

That should be tested in a court of law under penalty of perjury.

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