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Question: Bitcoin fork proposal by respected Bitcoin lead dev Gavin Andresen, to increase the block size from 1MB to 20MB.
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Author Topic: Bitcoin 20MB Fork  (Read 154754 times)
iCEBREAKER
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February 23, 2015, 12:08:58 AM
 #1701

A $2 coffee or $20 remittance to Africa doesn't belong in the same dataset as billion dollar trans-institutional settlements.  If you insist they must cohabitate, Bitcoin will collapse under its own weigh, a hypertrophic dinosaur victim of its own success ready to die in the nearest tar pit or meteor crater. 

Yes they do.

Quote
Commerce on the Internet has come to rely almost exclusively on financial institutions serving as
trusted third parties to process electronic payments. While the system works well enough for
most transactions, it still suffers from the inherent weaknesses of the trust based model.
Completely non-reversible transactions are not really possible, since financial institutions cannot
avoid mediating disputes. The cost of mediation increases transaction costs, limiting the
minimum practical transaction size and cutting off the possibility for small casual transactions.

What is needed is an electronic payment system based on cryptographic proof instead of trust,
allowing any two willing parties to transact directly with each other without the need for a trusted
third party.
-Satoshi
https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf

Every single transaction that pays the cost per kB belongs in the blockchain, and the cost per kB should be low enough to make all reasonable transactions feasible. A $2 cup of coffee belongs in the blockchain every bit as much as a $200 payment.

$2 and $200 retail payments don't belong in the same dataset as $2 million/billion commercial settlements.  More is different; free riders are a bug, not a feature.

"An electronic payment system based on cryptographic proof instead of trust" refers to blockchain technology in general, not necessarily Bitcoin specifically.

Piling every proof-of-work quorum system in the world into one dataset doesn't scale.

The networks need to have separate fates.



We get it.  You don't believe BTC is anti-fragile.  You really want to fix Bitcoin until it breaks.  You like Gavin's 'Embrace, Extend, Extinguish' attack.

That's fine.  But don't expect the rest of us to roll over and make forking Bitcoin into ThirdTempleCoin easy (much less profitable) for the attackers.   Wink


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DooMAD
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February 23, 2015, 01:38:36 AM
 #1702

If there is traffic to fill up blocks to that size, and the blocks cannot grow to that size, then the system fails.

Your lack of faith, imagination, and economic literacy does not constitute an emergency for Bitcoin.

Bitcoin is antifragile.  That means rather than fail in the face of adversity it grows stronger.

When blocks grow to >1MB, less important (IE valuable) transactions will simply move to other less cluttered blockchains.

This is Econ 101.  This is Julian Simon winning The Bet against doom-mongering catastrophist Paul Ehrlich.  This is the Substitution Effect, powered by the invisible hand.

Your Maximalist Monopolist conceit that Bitcoin is the only available blockchain in the entire universe (and thus must be all-inclusive) is demonstrably false.

Bitcoin The Canonical Reference Implementation's job is to replace the BIS, not fucking Visa, Paypal, Western Union, and little Sally's piggy bank.

The BIS effects every coffee purchase in the world, but not directly.  Bitcoin, as the new digital gold standard, is destined to do the same job, only better.

Individual central/local banks and payment networks will be replaced by any combination of sufficiently secured blockchains (merged mined and/or using different POWs).  The dark pools will be denominated in Monero.  Bitcoin isn't a one-size-fits-all solution for everyone and everything, although its blockchain technology will be extended for those purposes.

A $2 coffee or $20 remittance to Africa doesn't belong in the same dataset as billion dollar trans-institutional settlements.  If you insist they must cohabitate, Bitcoin will collapse under its own weigh, a hypertrophic dinosaur victim of its own success ready to die in the nearest tar pit or meteor crater.  

At most, blocksize should double when block reward halves.  Anything more is an inflationary free-rider-subsidizing Bloatcoin/Gavincoin/GigaCoin/VisaCoin alt-fork, not BTC proper.  

To believe that trade-offs do not exist and 20MB blocks are somehow magically free is also economic illiteracy.  Econ 101 tells us if you raise the cost of full nodes, you will have less of them.  

Expensive/limited bandwidth, not cheap disk space, is the problem (regardless of what RoadStress the idiot says).  The present ad-hoc attempts to subsidize nodes are a glaring admission of market failure, which will be greatly exacerbated by 20MB+ blocks.

Gavin's 20MB proposal is 100% textbook 'Embrace, Extend, Extinguish.'  Specifically, the 'Extend' phase.  And then comes the axe, as slow/hardened connections cannot propagate the bloat and nodes outside of Equation Group-vulnerable datacenters go dark, tearing holes in our mesh until only a fragile patchwork remains.

Keep Bitcoin Elite!TM

If you're so determined to have everyone's less "valuable" transactions on another chain, why are you opposing the fork?  Once we've forked, you'll never have to see another $2 coffee wasting precious space in your blocks again.  You should be happy to see us go.  Unless, of course, you end up having to admit that you need the rest of us to make this whole thing work.  Somehow it feels like we still haven't had an honest answer from your side about your real motives here.  I mean, which is it?  You say you want a system that doesn't include small transactions, but you want us all to stick around and support a network that will eventually be of no use to us because our "lesser" transactions won't make it in because the blocks are full?  You can't have your cake and eat it.  Either it works for the masses or it doesn't work.  That's Econ 101.  

You know full well that if you had a coin that only whales used, it would die a horrible death.  Otherwise you'd have done it by now.  You don't want to be kings of a worthless little molehill, so you need the rest of us.  So climb down from your high horse, admit that you're nothing without the rest of us and drop the whole elitist utopia bullshit.  You know that if there's a fork and you don't tag along, your ideals will only last about as long as the value of your network holds out, which I doubt would be very long without anyone else to hold it up for you.  All the bad things you claim will happen with a 20mb block won't happen to you if you stay on the old 1MB chain.  So why do you care if we fork?  Why are you so scared that we might leave you behind?  We'll survive without you, but you won't survive without us.  You know it.  We know it.  You have no other reason to oppose the fork.  

You.  Need.  Us.

..JAMBLER.io..Create Your Bitcoin Mixing
Business Now for   F R E E 
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iCEBREAKER
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February 23, 2015, 01:53:48 AM
 #1703

If you're so determined to have everyone's less "valuable" transactions on another chain, why are you opposing the fork?  Once we've forked, you'll never have to see another $2 coffee wasting precious space in your blocks again.  You should be happy to see us go.  Unless, of course, you end up having to admit that you need the rest of us to make this whole thing work.  Somehow it feels like we still haven't had an honest answer from your side about your real motives here.  I mean, which is it?  You say you want a system that doesn't include small transactions, but you want us all to stick around and support a network that will eventually be of no use to us because our "lesser" transactions won't make it in because the blocks are full?  You can't have your cake and eat it.  Either it works for the masses or it doesn't work.  That's Econ 101.  

You know full well that if you had a coin that only whales used, it would die a horrible death.  Otherwise you'd have done it by now.  You don't want to be kings of a worthless little molehill, so you need the rest of us.  So climb down from your high horse, admit that you're nothing without the rest of us and drop the whole elitist utopia bullshit.  You know that if there's a fork and you don't tag along, your ideals will only last about as long as the value of your network holds out, which I doubt would be very long without anyone else to hold it up for you.  All the bad things you claim will happen with a 20mb block won't happen to you if you stay on the old 1MB chain.  So why do you care if we fork?  Why are you so scared that we might leave you behind?  We'll survive without you, but you won't survive without us.  You know it.  We know it.  You have no other reason to oppose the fork.  

You.  Need.  Us.

Our reasons for opposing the fork have already been explained in great detail.  But you won't accept them, so you have to be paranoid and impute Secret Hidden Reasons.

Instead of using your psychic abilities to divine our True Motivations, perhaps you should be worrying about damage to the Bitcoin brand occurring as a result of this completely unnecessary Great Schism.

The world has always been and will always be an "elitist utopia."  Sorry if you believed that Bitcoin was your free ticket out of that reality and into the promised land of your Free Shit Army.

But yes, best of luck with your HubrisCoin.  Have fun being destroyed by MP and his fellow neo-royalist reactionaries.   Kiss


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Monero
"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
Buy and sell XMR near you
P2P Exchange Network
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AgentofCoin
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February 23, 2015, 01:56:20 AM
 #1704


If you're so determined to have everyone's less "valuable" transactions on another chain, why are you opposing the fork?  Once we've forked, you'll never have to see another $2 coffee wasting precious space in your blocks again.  You should be happy to see us go.  Unless, of course, you end up having to admit that you need the rest of us to make this whole thing work.  Somehow it feels like we still haven't had an honest answer from your side about your real motives here.  I mean, which is it?  You say you want a system that doesn't include small transactions, but you want us all to stick around and support a network that will eventually be of no use to us because our "lesser" transactions won't make it in because the blocks are full?  You can't have your cake and eat it.  Either it works for the masses or it doesn't work.  That's Econ 101.  

You know full well that if you had a coin that only whales used, it would die a horrible death.  Otherwise you'd have done it by now.  You don't want to be kings of a worthless little molehill, so you need the rest of us.  So climb down from your high horse, admit that you're nothing without the rest of us and drop the whole elitist utopia bullshit.  You know that if there's a fork and you don't tag along, your ideals will only last about as long as the value of your network holds out, which I doubt would be very long without anyone else to hold it up for you.  All the bad things you claim will happen with a 20mb block won't happen to you if you stay on the old 1MB chain.  So why do you care if we fork?  Why are you so scared that we might leave you behind?  We'll survive without you, but you won't survive without us.  You know it.  We know it.  You have no other reason to oppose the fork.  

You.  Need.  Us.

I'm beginning to think they only oppose the fork because they want Bitcoin held back, so that their altcoin can rise.

When blocks grow to >1MB, less important (IE valuable) transactions will simply move to other less cluttered blockchains.
Individual central/local banks and payment networks will be replaced by any combination of sufficiently secured blockchains (merged mined and/or using different POWs).  The dark pools will be denominated in Monero.  Bitcoin isn't a one-size-fits-all solution for everyone and everything, although its blockchain technology will be extended for those purposes.

Monero... it always goes back to that altcoin.

Anyone who opposes the fork are Monero users. Lol.

I support a decentralized & unregulatable ledger first, with safe scaling over time.
Request a signed message if you are associating with anyone claiming to be me.
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February 23, 2015, 02:13:35 AM
 #1705

If you're so determined to have everyone's less "valuable" transactions on another chain, why are you opposing the fork?  Once we've forked, you'll never have to see another $2 coffee wasting precious space in your blocks again.  You should be happy to see us go.  Unless, of course, you end up having to admit that you need the rest of us to make this whole thing work.  Somehow it feels like we still haven't had an honest answer from your side about your real motives here.  I mean, which is it?  You say you want a system that doesn't include small transactions, but you want us all to stick around and support a network that will eventually be of no use to us because our "lesser" transactions won't make it in because the blocks are full?  You can't have your cake and eat it.  Either it works for the masses or it doesn't work.  That's Econ 101.  

You know full well that if you had a coin that only whales used, it would die a horrible death.  Otherwise you'd have done it by now.  You don't want to be kings of a worthless little molehill, so you need the rest of us.  So climb down from your high horse, admit that you're nothing without the rest of us and drop the whole elitist utopia bullshit.  You know that if there's a fork and you don't tag along, your ideals will only last about as long as the value of your network holds out, which I doubt would be very long without anyone else to hold it up for you.  All the bad things you claim will happen with a 20mb block won't happen to you if you stay on the old 1MB chain.  So why do you care if we fork?  Why are you so scared that we might leave you behind?  We'll survive without you, but you won't survive without us.  You know it.  We know it.  You have no other reason to oppose the fork.  

You.  Need.  Us.

Our reasons for opposing the fork have already been explained in great detail.  But you won't accept them, so you have to be paranoid and impute Secret Hidden Reasons.

Instead of using your psychic abilities to divine our True Motivations, perhaps you should be worrying about damage to the Bitcoin brand occurring as a result of this completely unnecessary Great Schism.

The world has always been and will always be an "elitist utopia."  Sorry if you believed that Bitcoin was your free ticket out of that reality and into the promised land of your Free Shit Army.

But yes, best of luck with your HubrisCoin.  Have fun being destroyed by MP and his fellow neo-royalist reactionaries.   Kiss

Why would anyone accept your reasons when they're immediately debunked?  The only valid argument I've heard is the one where in future, it might lead to centralisation if the hardware requirements to run a full node are too great for the average user.  But that's a long way off, whereas the point where full blocks start occurring frequently and people are left waiting for their transactions to go through, will certainly happen first if we don't remove this pointless limit.  Slow or no confirmations for the majority will do far more to damage Bitcoin's reputation than a small minority of vocal antagonists whining "won't someone please think of the whales?"

You're the ones who wants free shit, because you want us to support a network that won't relay our transactions.  Again, I'm still yet to hear your plan on how you think you're going to manage without us?  Your options are pretty limited at this point:

Outcome 1:  We fork to the 20MB chain and you're left behind on the old chain to run all your own nodes and do all your own mining.

Outcome 2:  The fork doesn't happen, people's transactions stop confirming when the blocks are full and everyone jumps ship to something that actually works.  You're left behind to run all your own nodes and do all your own mining.

Either way, you need to face that fact that we're not sticking around to entertain your rather silly desire to support something that isn't in our benefit.  You can either tag along with us and play ball, or you can act up like some errant child.  It's all a question of how big a scene you want to make.  Either the 1MB limit goes, or we do.  Choose wisely.

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February 23, 2015, 02:15:05 AM
 #1706


I'm beginning to think they only oppose the fork because they want Bitcoin held back, so that their altcoin can rise.


You think that because you are an idiot.

MP is certainly no fan of altcoins.  Neither is Theymos or tvbcof or NewLibery or sardokan or davout or Pete Dushenski.

Any other stupid baseless easily demolished opinions you'd like to share?   Cheesy

I'm beginning to think you only support the Monopolist Maximalist fork because you want altcoins held back, so that your Bitcoin can rise.

Since you love Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish so much perhaps you should suggest we bundle Internet Explorer in all BTC clients!   Grin


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Monero
"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
Buy and sell XMR near you
P2P Exchange Network
Buy XMR with fiat
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February 23, 2015, 02:19:35 AM
 #1707

The only valid argument I've heard is the one where in future, it might lead to centralisation if the hardware requirements to run a full node are too great for the average user.


IT'S NOT THE FUCKING "HARDWARE REQUIREMENTS" IT'S THE FUCKING BANDWIDTH.

GET IT THROUGH YOUR THICK FUCKING SKULL!

NOBODY IS DENYING CPU AND STORAGE SPACE ARE CHEAP.

IT'S THE FUCKING BANDWIDTH THAT LIMITS FULL NODES.


Can you hear me now?   Cheesy


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February 23, 2015, 02:24:17 AM
 #1708

The only valid argument I've heard is the one where in future, it might lead to centralisation if the hardware requirements to run a full node are too great for the average user.


GIANT TEXT MAKES ME LOOK CLEVER


You've got a great career in politics.  Fantastic talent at avoiding the issues.  I would wait around for an actual reply, but I know you don't have one.  At the end of the day, there's going to be a fork and for all your mindless bleating, you're going to come quietly in the end.

..JAMBLER.io..Create Your Bitcoin Mixing
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February 23, 2015, 02:26:06 AM
 #1709


I'm beginning to think they only oppose the fork because they want Bitcoin held back, so that their altcoin can rise.


You think that because you are an idiot.

MP is certainly no fan of altcoins.  Neither is Theymos or tvbcof or NewLibery or sardokan or davout or Pete Dushenski.

Any other stupid baseless easily demolished opinions you'd like to share?   Cheesy

I'm beginning to think you only support the Monopolist Maximalist fork because you want altcoins held back, so that your Bitcoin can rise.

Since you love Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish so much perhaps you should suggest we bundle Internet Explorer in all BTC clients!   Grin

No, I think that because I looked at your past posts, and they mostly consist of Monero statements.  Cheesy

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February 23, 2015, 02:32:04 AM
 #1710

You've got a great career in politics.  Fantastic talent at avoiding the issues.  I would wait around for an actual reply, but I know you don't have one.  At the end of the day, there's going to be a fork and for all your mindless bleating, you're going to come quietly in the end.

I'm not "avoiding the issues."

I'm sick of your "herp derp cheap 1TB hard drive" canard.

The issue with 20MB blocks is bandwidth, not expensive storage.

When we raise the issue of bandwidth, you deflect with 'ZOMG BUY A NEW HARD DRIVES' and I'm not having it any longer.


Exactly what block size the network can support is very much debatable.

There should be more rigorous study of the actual limits of the network.

I'm still worried about the capabilities of typical Internet connections, and especially how they'll increase over time


30 kBps upload is common in Australia, and you sure should be able to run a full node in a typical internet connection in Australia, or Brazil, or Philippines, or whatever. The block size needs to be useful for the (lowest reasonable) common denominator, not the median.

Perhaps I'm giving you too much credit.  Maybe you and RoadStress don't even understand the difference between storage and bandwidth.

That would explain a lot.   Wink


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Monero
"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
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February 23, 2015, 02:39:22 AM
 #1711

Big red letters make statements automatically more credible.

An economy based on endless growth is unsustainable.
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February 23, 2015, 02:40:16 AM
 #1712

I looked at your past posts, and they mostly consist of Monero statements.  Cheesy

So what?  Am I not allowed to express/explain my own unique opinion on the matter?

Neither Theymos nor tvbcof nor NewLibery nor sardokan nor davout nor Pete Dushenski mentioned Monero.

That should be your clue that the minor details of my idiosyncratic perspective on the matter aren't especially germane to the issue at large.

Ah well, since you aren't good at thinking or argumentation, go ahead and seize on any little thing that helps you feel like you found a 'Gotcha.'   Cheesy


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Monero
"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
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February 23, 2015, 02:43:26 AM
 #1713

Big red letters make statements automatically more credible.

Sorry but small black letters didn't seem to be working.

I'm sick of the "herp derp cheap 1TB hard drive" canard.

The issue with 20MB blocks is bandwidth, not storage.


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Monero
"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
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February 23, 2015, 02:45:03 AM
 #1714

Big red letters make statements automatically more credible.

Sorry but small black letters didn't seem to be working.

I'm sick of the "herp derp cheap 1TB hard drive" canard.

The issue with 20MB blocks is bandwidth, not storage.

Sarcastic post was sarcastic.

If you can't make your point with small black letters, then there's something wrong with the statement, and not with the typography.

An economy based on endless growth is unsustainable.
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February 23, 2015, 02:52:53 AM
 #1715

If you can't make your point with small black letters, then there's something wrong with the statement, and not with the typography.

That's assuming an honest audience, which is not the case here.

The bandwidth vs storage issue has already been explained in very nice eloquent small black letters by several reputable people.

There was nothing wrong with their statements.

When we talk about bandwidth constraints but others stubbornly insist on pretending cheap hard drives solve that problem, it's time to start screaming.

By raising the profile of the bandwidth vs storage issue, I effectively call out those who conflate the two and force them to defend that position.


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Monero
"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
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February 23, 2015, 02:54:24 AM
 #1716

If they are as stubborn as you say, then big red letters won't make their stubbornness go away.


An economy based on endless growth is unsustainable.
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February 23, 2015, 03:01:12 AM
 #1717

I looked at your past posts, and they mostly consist of Monero statements.  Cheesy

So what?  Am I not allowed to express/explain my own unique opinion on the matter?

Neither Theymos nor tvbcof nor NewLibery nor sardokan nor davout nor Pete Dushenski mentioned Monero.

That should be your clue that the minor details of my idiosyncratic perspective on the matter aren't especially germane to the issue at large.

Ah well, since you aren't good at thinking or argumentation, go ahead and seize on any little thing that helps you feel like you found a 'Gotcha.'   Cheesy

I'm not trying to stifle your unique opinion nor trying to find a gotcha.
I'm just pointing out that most forum members against the 20mb fork are associated with Monero.
That's called an observation and I find it interesting.

Why don't you create your own thread, with a poll question like this (the opposite of this thread), but talk about node bandwidth as a reason against 20mb cap raising?
I would take the time to read it and carefully understand your opinion and then vote in it.
This thread has gotten convoluted and polling is basically done.

I support a decentralized & unregulatable ledger first, with safe scaling over time.
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February 23, 2015, 03:01:30 AM
 #1718

If they are as stubborn as you say, then big red letters won't make their stubbornness go away.

Of course not; that's what I'm counting on.   Smiley

The big red letters draw attention to the fact they are impervious to reason, regardless of how obnoxiously loudly the obviously reasonable "storage != bandwidth" position is shoved right in their stupid faces.


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"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
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February 23, 2015, 03:07:01 AM
 #1719


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February 23, 2015, 03:10:15 AM
 #1720

I'm just pointing out that most forum members against the 20mb fork are associated with Monero.
That's called an observation and I find it interesting.

Most forum members against the fork are Monero backers you say.
How many exactly?
I can only count 2 in this thread.


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