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Question: Bitcoin fork proposal by respected Bitcoin lead dev Gavin Andresen, to increase the block size from 1MB to 20MB.
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Author Topic: Bitcoin 20MB Fork  (Read 154754 times)
inBitweTrust
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February 16, 2015, 04:48:34 AM
 #1401

Unfortunately, I don't believe there is time to properly test and incorporate merkle tree pruning before we need to increase the block limit, but that should be a focus as well as using invertible Bloom filters .

http://www.coindesk.com/juniper-research-bitcoin-transactions-double-2017/

A couple years according to these researchers.  Double our current average and we still aren't at 1MB.

It is the upper limit peaks which are problematic and preparing for the future before the next traffic increase along with other decentralized apps like lighthouse being restricted. We are already seeing full blocks from time to time at the moment, thus we should be concerned now.

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traincarswreck
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February 16, 2015, 04:54:39 AM
 #1402

It is the upper limit peaks which are problematic and preparing for the future before the next traffic increase along with other decentralized apps like lighthouse being restricted. We are already seeing full blocks from time to time at the moment, thus we should be concerned now.
The problem we are having is that what you suggest is not inline with 20 years of lectures by John Nash about a new money technology that is going to revolutionize the current money printing practices.  To anyone that is familiar with the lecture series, it is clear you cannot solve this problem without consulting it.

Hence we have an on going battle based on religious division.

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February 16, 2015, 05:10:39 AM
 #1403

One time I got a message from a rando saying "Hey I heard Nick Szabo was really into stenography".

And nearly at the same time another rando says "Hey check out this video of nash @ X:XX timestamp"

This is very near to that time mark:


Is that too far?

I guess it turns out I am the only one that has read all of the relevant material?
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February 16, 2015, 05:30:28 AM
 #1404

So then I would like to present the argument, that we have a cognitive bias when it comes to "money".  And the problem of 'what should block size be', is simply an incorrect point of view.  Or in other words, the real question we need to ask, and what we need to address...

Is what is "Ideal Money"?  And this is a very special question:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oH2bB7dYnAk
[YOUTUBE]oH2bB7dYnAk[/YOUTUBE]

Without understanding this question, and its relation to "block size problem", we cannot at all expect to solve this issue. You all don't know this, because you have not yet explored the topic of "Ideal Money". "Ideal Money", is the cap stone, the Pyramidion (it will tell you, what should be "block size").
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February 16, 2015, 05:53:04 AM
 #1405

Shall we continue?  Now that we have most of the relevant information needed to solve the problem of "what should be block size"?
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February 16, 2015, 06:02:56 AM
 #1406

John Nash did not write about nor consider a situation in which the total number of transactions in a given time frame was constrained.  It is that consideration, completely omitted in Nash's writing, that we are discussing. 

Try to keep up.
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February 16, 2015, 06:04:51 AM
 #1407

John Nash did not write about nor consider a situation in which the total number of transactions in a given time frame was constrained.  It is that consideration, completely omitted in Nash's writing, that we are discussing.  

Try to keep up.
You are wrong.  You are blinded by your own obvious ignorance.  

You are asking "how should bitcoin work?", "how should it transact?", "Should it be Gold, or a highly transact-able currency?"

You are asking EXACTLY the question "What is Ideal Money?"

And you are learning and realizing right now...you have been setup, by the master.

Satoshi is your religion.

(Edit: btw, you have not read his writings, to know what he omitted, this problem does not necessitate the considerations you are pointing at, the PROPER perspective cancels them out (like many elegant solutions do).)
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February 16, 2015, 06:43:28 AM
 #1408

John Nash did not write about nor consider a situation in which the total number of transactions in a given time frame was constrained.  It is that consideration, completely omitted in Nash's writing, that we are discussing.  

Try to keep up.
You are wrong.  You are blinded by your own obvious ignorance.  

You are asking "how should bitcoin work?", "how should it transact?", "Should it be Gold, or a highly transact-able currency?"

You are asking EXACTLY the question "What is Ideal Money?"

And you are learning and realizing right now...you have been setup, by the master.

Satoshi is your religion.

(Edit: btw, you have not read his writings, to know what he omitted, this problem does not necessitate the considerations you are pointing at, the PROPER perspective cancels them out (like many elegant solutions do).)
Please illuminate us with a Nash reference and what is exactly the precise PROPER perpective that cancels out the need for more than 3 tps in a global currency?

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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February 16, 2015, 06:49:38 AM
 #1409

Please illuminate us with a Nash reference and what is exactly the precise PROPER perpective that cancels out the need for more than 3 tps in a global currency?
Thank you.  

I must reiterate, because words do not transfer well on the internet.  Sometimes I re read what I write and see it can be taken many different ways. In order to know the mathematical answer to "what is block size", FIRST you need to know what "ideal money" is.  Otherwise we are putting the cart before the horse.  There are many peoples theories on the subject, but of course we would hesitate to listen to them if they haven't AT LEAST READ the lecture "Ideal Money" by John Nash.  

Nash gives an EXTENSIVE explanation of money in the context of what is good money and what is bad money (in the gresham's sense), and then goes on to relate it to all the major currencies and their respective nations.  He did this ever since the same time when Szabo's blog started to appear (1995ish) and he gave these talks in many nations and changed the examples to suit the customs and perspectives of each audience.

So what is "ideal money", means both what is it that actually can be said to be ideal money AND it means "what is this strange lecture Dr. Nash has been giving". If we can begin to look at this lecture, if we can relevate it, then I can continue to explain the optimal strategy going forward in relation to this game theoretical problem.  But we need to get at least SOMEWHAT familiar with the material in the lectures.

We should hurry too, in order to beat the euro/greek announcement (although they are probably rather waiting for us.)

edit: btw I never said that we are canceling out change.  I am saying we are canceling out the need to mathematically determine the optimal block size.  This problem is solvable without such things.

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February 16, 2015, 06:55:23 AM
 #1410

Please illuminate us with a Nash reference and what is exactly the precise PROPER perpective that cancels out the need for more than 3 tps in a global currency?
Thank you.  

I must reiterate, because words do not transfer well on the internet.  
I LOL'd and almost stopped reading. Prepared for total BS.

Sometimes I re read what I write and see it can be taken many different ways. In order to know the mathematical answer to "what is block size", FIRST you need to know what "ideal money" is.  Otherwise we are putting the cart before the horse.  There are many peoples theories on the subject, but of course we would hesitate to listen to them if they haven't AT LEAST READ the lecture "Ideal Money" by John Nash.  

Getting a little tautological, but didn't really say anything.

Nash gives and EXTENSIVE explanation of money in the context of what is good money and what is bad money (in the gresham's sense), and then goes on to relate it to all the major currencies and their respective nations.  He did this ever since the same time when Szabo's blog started to appear (1995ish) and he gave these talks in many nations and changed the examples to suit the customs and perspectives of each audience.
Still not saying anything, nor answering my direct question.

So what is "ideal money", means both what is it that actually can be said to be ideal money AND it means "what is this strange lecture Dr. Nash has been giving". If we can begin to look at this lecture, if we can relevate it, then I can continue to explain the optimal strategy going forward in relation to this game theoretical problem.  But we need to get at least SOMEWHAT familiar with the material in the lectures.
Didn't answer my question. Regretted reading further.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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February 16, 2015, 07:20:28 AM
 #1411

Nash would have been a great science fiction writer IMHO. His conjectures are as fanciful and thought provoking as anything by Asimov, Heinlein, or Wells. Money is a social construct and nothing more. Great thinkers challenge the optics of social perspectives encompassing civilization. Like all scientists, they stand on the shoulders of their intellectual predecessors.

Using someone else's work to validate your own hypotheses requires diligent referencing and clearly support your arguments. Merely name dropping someone and claiming they support you is fallaciously arguing from authority and without merit.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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February 16, 2015, 07:21:00 AM
 #1412

Please illuminate us with a Nash reference and what is exactly the precise PROPER perpective that cancels out the need for more than 3 tps in a global currency?
Thank you.  

I must reiterate, because words do not transfer well on the internet.  Sometimes I re read what I write and see it can be taken many different ways. In order to know the mathematical answer to "what is block size", FIRST you need to know what "ideal money" is.  Otherwise we are putting the cart before the horse.  There are many peoples theories on the subject, but of course we would hesitate to listen to them if they haven't AT LEAST READ the lecture "Ideal Money" by John Nash.  

You were asked a direct question.  You have not answered it.  Please provide a direct answer, by citing a specific paper, published on a specific date, that someone can look up and go read.  

I reiterate.  I have read Nash.  He did not write about any situation in which the total transaction rate per time was constrained.  Your claim to the contrary is without proof.  If you disagree -- that is, if you have proof -- then produce it.  Otherwise you will be ignored.




traincarswreck
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February 16, 2015, 07:24:47 AM
 #1413



Nash would have been a great science fiction writer IMHO. His conjectures are as fanciful and thought provoking as anything by Asimov, Heinlein, or Wells. Money is a social construct and nothing more. Great thinkers challenge the optics of social perspectives encompassing civilization. Like all scientists, they stand on the shoulders of their intellectual predecessors.

Using someone else's work to validate your own hypotheses requires diligent referencing and clearly support your arguments. Merely name dropping someone and claiming they support you is fallaciously arguing from authority and without merit.
You deity Satoshi is not real.  Your religion crumbles.  The works are all cited, and very well, you have not read them.
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February 16, 2015, 07:26:05 AM
 #1414

You were asked a direct question.  You have not answered it.  Please provide a direct answer, by citing a specific paper, published on a specific date, that someone can look up and go read.  

I reiterate.  I have read Nash.  He did not write about any situation in which the total transaction rate per time was constrained.  Your claim to the contrary is without proof.  If you disagree -- that is, if you have proof -- then produce it.  Otherwise you will be ignored.
http://sites.stat.psu.edu/~babu/nash/money.pdf

Keep in mind, I am the worlds greatest poker player.  If you ignore the material presented, then you suffer from your own ignorance.
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February 16, 2015, 07:28:41 AM
 #1415

Ya'll can't read this can you?
Quote from: Ideal Money
My opinion is that if it were too easy to set up a form of “global money” that the version achieved might have characteristics of inferiority which would make it, compar-atively, more like a relatively inferior national currency than like any of the more praiseworthy national or imperial currencies known to historical records.

But there is a good prospect for avoiding the estab-lishment of another, possibly deceptive, currency of infer-ior quality. Here I think of the possibility that a good sort of international currency might EVOLVE before the time when an official establishment might occur.

So my personal view is that a practical global money might most favorably evolve through the development first of a few regional currencies of truly good quality. And then the “integration” or “coordination” of those into a global currency would become just a technical problem. (Here I am thinking of a politically neutral form of a technological utility rather than of a money which might, for example, be used to exert pressures in a conflict situation comparable to “the cold war”.)

 If it becomes a matter of strong and definite prefer-ences that the money used should have definite character-istics of quality then, in principle, the people can demand that. For example formerly there was the drachma and now there is, in Greece, the euro instead of that. And the people seem to be pleased with the change.

But the famous classical "Gresham’s Law" also reveals the intrinsic difficulty. Thus "good money" will not naturally supplant and replace "bad money" by a simple Darwinian superiority of competitive species. Rather than that, it must be that the good things are established by the voluntary choice of human agencies. And these resp-onsible agencies, being naturally of the domain of polit-ically derived authorities, would need to make appropriate efforts to achieve such a goal and to pay the costs that are entailed before their societies can benefit.

An example of an efficiently working global reform (at least in relation to electronic manufactures) is the metric system, with its central Bureau located near Paris. And this is an example of a system of yardsticks where inflation is currently NOT in fashion!
If "Ideal Money" requires a consensus to change block size...you will not achieve it...DUCY?
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February 16, 2015, 07:28:58 AM
 #1416


You deity Satoshi is not real.  Your religion crumbles.  The works are all cited, and very well, you have not read them.
[/quote]
Time for you to start a new troll account. This one is ignored. Fortunately for you the admins allow newbies to post right away in all the forums. It's to bad you are a troll, I was hoping you had something interesting to say.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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February 16, 2015, 07:29:55 AM
 #1417

You fail.

I have read that paper, ages ago.  One of the many things he did not mention was any form of money whose transaction rate is limited in time.

Welcome to my kill file, because you are lying.
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February 16, 2015, 07:32:39 AM
Last edit: February 16, 2015, 07:53:45 AM by traincarswreck
 #1418

Quote
One of the many things he did not mention was any form of money whose transaction rate is limited in time.
Szabo did though  Grin

You have not understood the problem, because you are functioning on a religious myth. Tell us how you came across the paper "Ideal Money"?
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February 16, 2015, 02:00:12 PM
 #1419

in case the hard fork goes through(I know, you don't believe it is going to happen.... but you should always plan for these "black swan " events)

If, against all odds, USGavincoin wins: I will be done with "cryptocurrency." My plan in that event is to find something else to do. I don't want to have anything to do with totalitarian systems. It's like you're saying "you should plan for sucking Hitler's knob in the event that the Nazis win WW2."


MP's going to do what he's going to do, but I'd be highly inclined to have the pogo's be free (in the software sense) and open.
I think 20MB is fine

We wouldn't have it any other way, except you still won't be allowed to use it.

And to those of you who still say "I think 20MB is fine," I have this to ask: do you currently maintain a full node? Before you answer, think carefully. A full node has the entire blockchain history. It isn't enough to have all the block headers, or all the unspent outputs. You need to have everything. It also needs to have an uptime greater than 90% (really more than 99%, but I'm feeling generous).

Marriage is a permanent bond (or should be) between a man and a woman. Scripture reveals a man has the freedom to have this marriage bond with more than one woman, if he so desires. But, anything beyond this is a perversion. -- Darwin Fish
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February 16, 2015, 02:02:51 PM
 #1420

in case the hard fork goes through(I know, you don't believe it is going to happen.... but you should always plan for these "black swan " events)

If, against all odds, USGavincoin wins: I will be done with "cryptocurrency." My plan in that event is to find something else to do. I don't want to have anything to do with totalitarian systems. It's like you're saying "you should plan for sucking Hitler's knob in the event that the Nazis win WW2."


MP's going to do what he's going to do, but I'd be highly inclined to have the pogo's be free (in the software sense) and open.
I think 20MB is fine

We wouldn't have it any other way, except you still won't be allowed to use it.

And to those of you who still say "I think 20MB is fine," I have this to ask: do you currently maintain a full node? Before you answer, think carefully. A full node has the entire blockchain history. It isn't enough to have all the block headers, or all the unspent outputs. You need to have everything. It also needs to have an uptime greater than 90% (really more than 99%, but I'm feeling generous).

mate, could you provide us with the contingency plan regarding mining the prefork coin? cuz without miners, MP aint gonna do anything, and its not the 10k nodes giveaway that will change anything.
also considering the fact that all the 'big' players are likely going to agree on this before anything actually happen..
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