Bitcoin 20MB Fork

[davout]

Why have you not responded to these allegations?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=372784.0

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=602754.msg6644863#msg6644863

Your lack of google-fu is disturbing.

Davout, before making another post here arguing your "vision" of the future of Bitcoin, I want you to make a short video in which you list your main points.

Or else what? You're going to hold your breath until I do?

Now instead of running around in circles and 'wanting' stuff, I suggest you work on this brain of yours, go for a little read, have a poke at OpenTransactions and its voting pools for example. You might even learn a thing or two along the way.

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[davout]

Think of Bitcoin as being like an airplane pilot. 99.9% is pretty easy and boring.  The handful of really nasty bad weather approaches one undertakes over the course of a career is where you earn your money.  You don't need to 'grease it on'...just get the thing safely on the ground.

I find flying to be neither easy nor boring

[dancing altcoin shiva]

so do i understad right: Bitcoin is over - one way or another?

No matter which side wins the argument, bitcoin is done and will cease to exist?

Yes, it's all over.  

Just as you can never step into the same stream twice;  that water has gone somewhere else.  The Bitcoin of yesterday is gone, and only the Bitcoin of today remains.  Well, except for the entire existing blockchain that has remained the same for years, but then new blocks get added every day.  So it stays the same, except for the new parts which make it different.  Except that the previous blocks never change.  But other than that, it's all over.  And also it's just beginning.  Bitcoin is dead, long live Bitcoin.

I understand: Bitcoin is doomed when we reach the blocklimit (i doubt that's true but who gives a flying?)
And when Gavin gets his way the price will likely crash because nobody wants to get caught in this shit ... and bitcoin become inaccessible and unappealing for the normal user due to eccessive use of recources. Essentially also ending 'Bitcoin' and starting two new coins from the old chain: Gavincoin and MPcoin.
I personally fail to see who the users of Gavincoin should be. It's certainly not me. I would stick to dogecoin and others instead where there is only one blockchain and less confusion and risk involved. It is less volatilte too.

So Gavincoin will be for the superrich and basically loose its useability for normal people (in case they are even interested in it because Gavincoin will ironically not be designed for them but wants to cater to a userbase of small transactions which likely stop occuring on the Gavincoin chain because of said inaccessibility). Doge to the moon?

Chaos and Drama is what Gavin promised and he's about to give it to you.

I certainly fail to see who the users of Gavincoin should be ...

Predicting a crash of the market for the hardfork is also no rocket science.

[AMVM]

@davout

Mate could you provide anything that explains the "scarcity x fee progression" matter?. I've read this post entirely, but still failed to understand those.


This whole Block limit increase means that we'll have to increase our full nodes storage capacity (1TB/year)? I mean, there won't be relation between the block's completion and this demand in storage?
Lemme illustrate: if for 1 year all blocks went empty would we still require +1TB of storage that data?


OBS: sry bros i'm trying really hard to understand what is happening

[tvbcof]

Think of Bitcoin as being like an airplane pilot. 99.9% is pretty easy and boring.  The handful of really nasty bad weather approaches one undertakes over the course of a career is where you earn your money.  You don't need to 'grease it on'...just get the thing safely on the ground.

I find flying to be neither easy nor boring

You probably don't do it for a living.  I don't, but a fair fraction of my immediate family does.  Whether by accident or design the monotony ratio was improved by being bush pilots in Alaska where it is pretty common to be force to fly a hundred feet off the ocean and land on a beach in order to pick up or drop off the passengers or cargo.

I fly rarely enough that it is still fun but never did finish my license.  Maybe if Bitcoin pops again and I finish up my several years worth of projects I'm busy with.  My dad used to let me fly while he took a nap and I actually almost crashed the thing when I was about 12 or 13.  In terms of a career, I joke with said family that I consider it to be basically a glorified taxi driver  but in fact it does require a fair bit of skill and judgement.  OTOH, so does being a taxi driver in a lot of places I suppose.

[Lauda]

@davout

Mate could you provide anything that explains the "scarcity x fee progression" matter?. I've read this post entirely, but still failed to understand those.


This whole Block limit increase means that we'll have to increase our full nodes storage capacity (1TB/year)? I mean, there won't be relation between the block's completion and this demand in storage?
Lemme illustrate: if for 1 year all blocks went empty would we still require +1TB of storage that data?


OBS: sry bros i'm trying really hard to understand what is happening

Well a lot of people seem to think this, but they are wrong.
Increasing the limit to 20MB doesn't mean that the block will always be its maximum size. The storage needs will grow slowly over time, nothing drastic with this change. It just removes some limitations.

[homo homini lupus]

lol. First memes popping up - get ready for the meme shitstorm

Nice shoes.  Wanna Fork!

[inBitweTrust]

...
Of the active nodes in existence few if any of them would be effected by this hardfork(most users don't even know that they need to contact their ISP and unblock port 8333 which is blocked by default by almost every ISP) so the fears of centralization are exaggerated. ...

Huh?  None of the handful of consumer-land ISP's I've had since 2011 blocked incoming high ports by default.  Sounds to me like you are confused about the difference between 'contacting your ISP' and 'logging in to your router'.  Or you signed up for some kind of nanny-help-me add-on from your ISP.

Of course many ISPs block out outgoing 8333 by default . Why do you think we see all these threads where people complain that they are getting only 8 incoming connections on their bitcoin QT wallet? Why do we average less than 7k nodes worldwide at any given time? https://getaddr.bitnodes.io/

Whether it is involves configuring a cctv system or setting up a node from a consumer internet plan most ISPs I have seen require me to call them and specifically request I open up those outgoing ports. Commercial level service products usually aren't blocked by default from I have seen though.

[hdbuck]

...
Of the active nodes in existence few if any of them would be effected by this hardfork(most users don't even know that they need to contact their ISP and unblock port 8333 which is blocked by default by almost every ISP) so the fears of centralization are exaggerated. ...

Huh?  None of the handful of consumer-land ISP's I've had since 2011 blocked incoming high ports by default.  Sounds to me like you are confused about the difference between 'contacting your ISP' and 'logging in to your router'.  Or you signed up for some kind of nanny-help-me add-on from your ISP.

Of course many ISPs block out outgoing 8333 by default . Why do you think we see all these threads where people complain that they are getting only 8 incoming connections on their bitcoin QT wallet? Why do we average less than 7k nodes worldwide at any given time? https://getaddr.bitnodes.io/

as far as i remember we used to have way more nodes worldwide..

[inBitweTrust]

as far as i remember we used to have way more nodes worldwide..

The drop in nodes correlates to mining centralization. http://www.bitcoinpulse.com/#/chart/bitnodes/num_nodes

shows the peak around 231k nodes

[2112]

Of course many ISPs block out outgoing 8333 by default . Why do you think we see all these threads where people complain that they are getting only 8 incoming connections on their bitcoin QT wallet? Why do we average less than 7k nodes worldwide at any given time? https://getaddr.bitnodes.io/

Whether it is involves configuring a cctv system or setting up a node from a consumer internet plan most ISPs I have seen require me to call them and specifically request I open up those outgoing ports. Commercial level service products usually aren't blocked by default from I have seen though.

I've noticed certain repeating characteristic in the writing of many members of this forum: they construct grammatically correct sentences but absolutely disregard the underlying semantics: incoming vs. outgoing, local vs. remote, source vs. destination, etc. Here in regards to TCP/IP ports, but I observed that in regards to pretty much any technical issue.

It reminds me of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_salad , but doesn't go as far in the unintelligibility. It is more akin to somebody just memorizing sentences and phrases without any sort of comprehension, something that actors have to do well.

What would be the real underlying psychological mechanism at work here? Conformism? Or maybe there is a physiological explanation, like some sort of milder http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korsakoff%27s_syndrome ?

I'm really puzzled, because I've noticed this also in some very visible and high-level people, eg. core developers talking about the hardware design instead of the software design.

[a fool and his money ...]

lol. This shit is out of hand:

http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-elite-meet-secret-island-bilderberg-style-retreat/

[tvbcof]

...
Of the active nodes in existence few if any of them would be effected by this hardfork(most users don't even know that they need to contact their ISP and unblock port 8333 which is blocked by default by almost every ISP) so the fears of centralization are exaggerated. ...

Huh?  None of the handful of consumer-land ISP's I've had since 2011 blocked incoming high ports by default.  Sounds to me like you are confused about the difference between 'contacting your ISP' and 'logging in to your router'.  Or you signed up for some kind of nanny-help-me add-on from your ISP.

Of course many ISPs block out outgoing 8333 by default . Why do you think we see all these threads where people complain that they are getting only 8 incoming connections on their bitcoin QT wallet?

If and ISP blocked a particular port, one would get zero connections on it.

It would not surprise me at all to have a max cons set by and ISP.  That would explain the why one has difficulty.  Each connection uses network resources in a router (yours and your ISP's respectively.)

This is what drives me nuts about ignorant people making simplistic calculations of capability based on the download speeds (which are artifacts of a marketing department usually anyway.)  Ya, you might be able to get some decent percentage of a pipe in use but only by using multiple streams, and that is particularly the case with TCP on a wan.  Anyone who has tried to SCP a large file can tell you this.  Nobody is going to be thrilled about Joe Sixpack using a thousand sockets, and crappy consumer grade routers will have difficulty.  Probably max-cons is set by the ISP to throttle those trying to do torrents.  Same trick here.  This certainly illustrates the point I'm making about being at the mercy of network infrastructure providers.

Why do we average less than 7k nodes worldwide at any given time? https://getaddr.bitnodes.io/

IIRC it's even less than that by now.  Anyway, I don't have to guess about why this is.  It's obviously because for some bizarre reason Satoshi didn't choose to reward transfer nodes in his implementation.  Why I have no idea.  It's one of the strongest observations supporting the hypothesis that Bitcoin was designed to fail (or at least become centralized and under control.)  Not that I believe this to be true, but it is one of the many hypothesis that I continue to hold open.  Probably he just ran out of time and patience.  If he was ignornant enough to not forsee the difficulties with the block size hard-fork then he may also have imagined that transfer node rewards were something that could be tacked on later.

[bambou]

lol. This shit is out of hand:

http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-elite-meet-secret-island-bilderberg-style-retreat/

I don't get it, why do they have to act like the very same people we are trying to escape from?

What's with the mimetic twatery? Isnt bitcoin a public ledger?

[zimmah]

It won't stop tomorrow dude, how much about bitcoin do you know?

Cute.

Imagine Apple selling $100k iPhones to 4,000 people.  Duh.

According to this braindamaged logic Airbus shouldn't be able to sell its A380s, they're 400mn a pop after all.

like supporting ed25519 which is orders of magnitude faster than ECDSA+secp256k1

Haha, sure, let's change the fucking curve while we're at it.
It's a no-brainer in the sense that only someone without a brain would opine.

Comparing the price of an Airbus with an iPhone? What the hell man.

Do you even realize what the production cost of an airplane is?

[a fool and his money ...]

lol. This shit is out of hand:

http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-elite-meet-secret-island-bilderberg-style-retreat/

I don't get it, why do they have to act like the very same people we are trying to escape from?

What's with the mimetic twatery? Isnt bitcoin a public ledger?

Bitcoin is at this point a monumental failure. Time to start ignoring it and support some alternative cryptocurrencies.
Try to avoid and support exchanges that also avoid it. Buying btc just means you feeding those elitist suckers your money.


This is bitcoin now:

[Eamorr]

Heartbreaking to see things go like this.

We're far abstracted away from our origins.

The infighting and bickering is pathetic to witness. I can only imagine what onlookers and potential newcomers think of it all.

Sad.

[tvbcof]

Heartbreaking to see things go like this.

We're far abstracted away from our origins.

The infighting and bickering is pathetic to witness. I can only imagine what onlookers and potential newcomers think of it all.

Sad.

"We ain't all Baptists here sonny."

Really though, how odd to find strongly opinionated people in something as benign and wholesome as the Bitcoin ecosystem.  Who would have guessed?

[bambou]

this is where it gets tricky:

Admittedly I do not know who a lot about Bruce Fenton, I know he ran for election for the Bitcoin foundation, but I noticed something that is somewhat concerning.

I've been doing some digging into this website satoshiroundtable.org for fun. The whois information for it shows:

Code:

Tech Name:Bruce Fenton
Tech Organization:AF
Tech Street: 167 Washington Street
Tech City:Norwell
Tech State/Province:Massachusetts
Tech Postal Code:02061
Tech Country:US
Tech Phone:+1.6173814907
Tech Phone Ext:
Tech Fax:
Tech Fax Ext:
Tech Email:domainadmin@fdvt.com

The WHOIS information for fdvt has the same address:

Code:

Tech Organization: FDVT
Tech Street: 167 Washington Street
Tech City: Norwell
Tech State/Province: MA
Tech Postal Code: 02061
Tech Country: US
Tech Phone: +1.7819824911
Tech Phone Ext.:
Tech Fax:
Tech Fax Ext.:
Tech Email: domainadmin@fdvt.com

Now for the weird/conspiracy bit, check out the website http://fdvt.com

FDVT was founded in 1985.  We provide solutions to help understand changes in our world.  Specifically we provide IT consulting, Internet consulting, social media consulting, security and economic advisory consulting.

Customers of FDVT include:

US Army
US Navy
US Coast Guard
US Air Force
US Postal Service
US Postal Inspector Service
FBI - Federal Bureau of Investigation
IRS - Internal Revue Service
DEA - Drug Enforcement Agency
Veterans Administration
City Of New York and New York Police Department (NYPD)
Eastern Bank
TCF Bank
Bank of America

Why does this company FDVT has some connection to the Satoshi Roundtable? This is concerning.

USGov is so broke it can only afford cheap french tour vacations..

[tvbcof]

...
Noticed the same with the ISP's, Ireland's really lax on internet rights and there's lots of weird stuff going on, outages followed by slowdowns on certain sites, everything loading fine except images taking ages, that kind of thing. Obvious what's going on, lots of sites seem to be going offline lately, nothing big but a lot crypto related.

Have to get back onto my ISP again now, hadn't realised they'd blocked 8333 again. Second time they've done that, will have to route out to a VPS. That's what the dumbasses don't get, that which doesn't kill us makes us stronger.

Bingo!  The biggest favor TPTB could do right now would be to fuck with us.  Maybe we have some sympathizers there in Ireland?

You don't capture and kill something be marching right up with a big stick or waiting for it to crawl into your mouth unless you are stupid like an amphibian or amoeba.  You come in downwind using all available cover then choose the timing with as much precision as possible for the final lunge.  That's why felines are still with us.  Another strategy is to run the prey to exhaustion.  There is a pretty strong theory that this was a method employed by some of our immediate ancestors (since a very few human groups still do it and humans are actually pretty good at long distance running by the standards of the animal kingdom) but it's pretty labor intensive and exhausting and usually doesn't work.  Try the cat strategy first.